A Better Matrix, Adapting the SR3 matrix to SR4 Options

[nathanross]

So, this is something I have been thinking of for sometime. I know the SR3 Matrix rules were a bit too complex for most, but they had rules that covered a wireless Matrix, and were so far more complete you can hardly compare.

Has anyone tried adapting the variable TN to the SR4 core mechanic? I understand it would require a complete char gen balance shuffle (more BP in resources, less in skills, since I would like to bring back decks and reduce the hacking skills to one group that does not include hardware/electronics)

Please give your thoughts.

[Matsci]

Or, y'know, rather than changing the Target number, change the threshold.

[Dashifen]

My thoughts are hang in there until you see what Unwired brings to the table. I've not seen it, but the rumor-mill seems to indicate that it's going to be sweet. If you're still unhappy with the rules once their complete in their published form (for now), then spending the effort to write your own rules might be more timely.

For what it's worth, if you haven't given the matrix rules a chance in real life, try them. I've been running SR4 since I got the book at GenCon the year it was released. I've never once seen any of the corner-case mathematical problems at the table that we all discuss so vehemently here. I've had probably 6 to 10 dedicate hackers at my table since then (probably about 1/3 or 1/4 of the players) and some of them were even Comp. Sci. majors at the local University, so if anyone was going to try and tweak the rules and break the system, you'd think it would have been them.

I'm not saying the rules don't have their holes, I'm just saying that those holes have not materialized in actual game play as often as they do here in theoretical conversations.

[Prime Mover]

Have to agree with Dashifen. Can't name one incident in our games were any of the hypotheticals brought up here on dumpshock have actually come up in play. If anything 4th edition has actually gone smoother then any previous version when it comes to not slowing down the action. My current team has a dedicated hacker that not only fufills the old role of decker but also does command, control and coordination duties for the whole team. (Slaves teams commlinks for increased protection and tactical info sharing.)

[Nightwalker450]

I'm the source of most our groups matrix headaches. And they all involve me being a technomancer. But they are as I said, more headaches than actual problems.

The threading is the main thing that poses difficulty, we do rethreading (to stack) as free actions (instead of non-actions) so that I can use decent programs that I don't have Complex Forms of. The offshoot of this is if I have a combat turn to prepare I'm running the program I need at rating 10. I only use sprites for menial tasks or multi-tasking, usually I do everything myself. I have a sprite pilot drones, just so it can have a "real" brain in it instead of a program. Makes it alot more flexible in the commands it can take, but they don't usually have a much higher rating than the pilot.

I'm pretty much waiting for Unwired before trying to really stretch my Virtuakinetic muscle. The only real problem with the matrix as it exists now is a lack of examples and context for us to use to decipher it. All crunch and fluff, with no examples to tie the two together.

[Heath Robinson]

I've had probably 6 to 10 dedicate hackers at my table since then (probably about 1/3 or 1/4 of the players) and some of them were even Comp. Sci. majors at the local University, so if anyone was going to try and tweak the rules and break the system, you'd think it would have been them.

There are increasingly large numbers of Comp Sci majors who are doing it only for the employment prospects and don't think to apply it in their everyday life.

[Nightwalker450]

There are increasingly large numbers of Comp Sci majors who are doing it only for the employment prospects and don't think to apply it in their everyday life.

I'm one of the Comp Sci majors... And its that knowledge that keeps the system from being broken. The amount of Matrix unwritten allows me to fill in the blanks with my knowledge and stop game breaking actions, and provide challenges for the runners. So its probably not that they will try to break it due to things unwritten, as they see the unwritten side of it and don't think its that broken.

[Cthulhudreams]

I had problems constantly, but thats because I see buying an agent as a game wrecking move, because suddenly the mage is sort of a major matrix contributor despite the fact he did get any programs (he leeched them as he needed them off the hacker) aside from the agent and he had a computer group of 0. So I banned agents and let him retcon.

And once the bloody hacker figured out that he lost.. nothing.. (okay two dice) by using AR (he had 3 wired IP anyway as he was a sort off.. sammie/hacker) and got complete immunity to pretty much anything in the GM tool box, I just got shirty.

Also, if you look at welcome in the shadows you can see everyone and their dog has brought an agent. That are stupidly common.

[ArkonC]

Like Dashifen said, I'd wait for Unwired before adapting the whole matrix system...
That being said, we do have some house rules going for the matrix...
For example, AR is at a maximum of 1 IP, Cold Sim is the usual 2 and Hot the usual 3...
While this makes very little sense in the realism department, it does give deckers a reason to go hot...
So if a decker had 3 IPs, he could use 1 for AR hacking and the other 2 for shooting/hitting/not getting shot...
We are also very careful with agents, since they can easily screw the system, but we've made no actual house rules regarding them...

[Prime Mover]

I had problems constantly, but thats because I see buying an agent as a game wrecking move, because suddenly the mage is sort of a major matrix contributor despite the fact he did get any programs (he leeched them as he needed them off the hacker) aside from the agent and he had a computer group of 0. So I banned agents and let him retcon.

And once the bloody hacker figured out that he lost.. nothing.. (okay two dice) by using AR (he had 3 wired IP anyway as he was a sort off.. sammie/hacker) and got complete immunity to pretty much anything in the GM tool box, I just got shirty.

Also, if you look at welcome in the shadows you can see everyone and their dog has brought an agent. That are stupidly common.

Kind of like in the 70's when you had to have a dedicated "stereo guy" to set your equalizer on your 500 pound hi-fi system and now ever damn idiot on the planet has an Ipod in his pocket. Time does not stand still, just look at how computers have proliferated in past 20 years. Just a sign veteran runners are getting old and falling behind the curve when they can't grasp those new kids and there lack of respect for what you had to work with back in the 2050's.

BagBoy: " It's all Tac & Tech now. I remember when the troll with the acid green hair screamed commands over his phone watch. With the sound of minigun fire and death metal drowning him out, while we carried the mage out and the decker worked from 800 miles away...go figure."

[nathanross]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm guessing that so far no one has done what I was hoping that had. Anyways, my main grief is not in the agent smith problem or any of this "broken" rules implications. My grief is that there is no fluff foundation for the SR4 matrix, and the devs just threw out years of work to simplify it.

Here are my major issues:

• Commlinks, since when did my PDA have the processing power of my computer?
• Why does a top of the line chip cost skittles more than a bottom of the line one?
• Basic Matrix architecture, how does a hierarchical system translate to wireless?
• The feel of 2070 matrix is like 2008 internet

First in defense of comm/deck issue. I am not saying that technology does not progress in 5 years, but this is just too big a change. I can see decks coming down in size, and gaining an absurd amount more memory, but not so much that you don't even need to consider memory anymore.

I understand that Mp is a total pain in the ass, and decking requires a spreadsheet to keep track of your programs, but everything fits. There is a designated way to do everything, and there is a reason for everything.

Also, while commlinks have been designed to communicate with the new wireless protocol, can the still access a wired matrix via jackpoint? My main reason for asking this is while in North America, most systems were hosed, Lofwyr saved all his grids via his own personal matrix kill switch. Since S-K owns most of the European grids, then most of Europe will probably be a combination of wired/wireless. Afterall, there is no money to be made in throwing a perfectly useful system away.

Radiation clusterfuck: The SR4 system, in the sake of simplicity, condensed all forms of electro magnetic radiation outside the visual spectrum into 1 giant heap that is used by all devices. This is stupid and should be changed.

Just some more things to think about.

[Trobon]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm guessing that so far no one has done what I was hoping that had. Anyways, my main grief is not in the agent smith problem or any of this "broken" rules implications. My grief is that there is no fluff foundation for the SR4 matrix, and the devs just threw out years of work to simplify it.

Here are my major issues:

• Commlinks, since when did my PDA have the processing power of my computer?
• Why does a top of the line chip cost skittles more than a bottom of the line one?
• Basic Matrix architecture, how does a hierarchical system translate to wireless?
• The feel of 2070 matrix is like 2008 internet

First in defense of comm/deck issue. I am not saying that technology does not progress in 5 years, but this is just too big a change. I can see decks coming down in size, and gaining an absurd amount more memory, but not so much that you don't even need to consider memory anymore.

I understand that Mp is a total pain in the ass, and decking requires a spreadsheet to keep track of your programs, but everything fits. There is a designated way to do everything, and there is a reason for everything.

Also, while commlinks have been designed to communicate with the new wireless protocol, can the still access a wired matrix via jackpoint? My main reason for asking this is while in North America, most systems were hosed, Lofwyr saved all his grids via his own personal matrix kill switch. Since S-K owns most of the European grids, then most of Europe will probably be a combination of wired/wireless. Afterall, there is no money to be made in throwing a perfectly useful system away.

Radiation clusterfuck: The SR4 system, in the sake of simplicity, condensed all forms of electro magnetic radiation outside the visual spectrum into 1 giant heap that is used by all devices. This is stupid and should be changed.

Just some more things to think about.

I do understand your dilemma here. I've found myself more than once looking at my old 3rd edition matrix book and wondering if 4th edition is more or less fun as a decker. I have played a decker since second edition when we first got our game and have always loved playing one. However, hackers have seemed out of place in 4th edition. They no longer feel as mysterious and challenging as the older days. I know this is a good step for some reasons. I know it makes it easier for anyone to play a hacker just like the new magic system makes it easier for anyone to play a mage. However, it takes away some of the mystique that was associated with playing a good decker or a good mage. I mean there was a mage in our group that could do things that I couldn't even fathom. When I made a mage I couldn't think how to do half of it. However, when I was designing my deck or hacking into an Ares facility to grab the paydata my group heard the things I would talk about and have their minds blown.

Of coarse the main good thing about this is for GMs and if for no other reason I support the new system for them. I mean trying to keep track of the rules for regular combat and magic and the matrix was a real pain and this system is far easier to do.

I know this little rant doesn't exactly help you with your problem. I, also, would just wait until Unwired before deciding. I know I am waiting eagerly for it and will be ready to hand it off to my GM as soon as it comes out.

[hobgoblin]

heh, lets hope that unwired brings back some of that mystery (without VR2.0 or matrix th SR2 and SR3 decker rules was not much mysterious imo).

btw, reading nathanross's last post makes me think about people talking about usenet, gopher or bbs's in front of a group of kids thats growing up with webforums, google and pirate bay...

as for a PDA having the power of a home computer. maybe not, but it has enough power to get the job done, and thats whats counts.

but then again, the deck of SR3 and older was in many ways the laptop of SR. if one wanted a desktop there was the breadboarding rules. the only way one could carry around one of those was by a large suitcase or similar iirc.

the one thing to keep in mind about the SR comlink tho is that its gone optical. the big problem for cpus today is the amount of heat being put out, and by that the wasted energy (and lets not forget the cooling). with optical the heat problem goes away and the only problem then becomes energy storage for the device. and SR handwaves that away.

[KCKitsune]

the one thing to keep in mind about the SR comlink tho is that its gone optical. the big problem for cpus today is the amount of heat being put out, and by that the wasted energy (and lets not forget the cooling). with optical the heat problem goes away and the only problem then becomes energy storage for the device. and SR handwaves that away.

Think about this... optical memory storage can squeeze a enormous amount of data into a VERY small area. I remember hearing about getting 1 TB of data into a sugar cube sized area. With SR level of tech... you get the picture. I've included links below so you guys will know where I got my info.

--------------------------------

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/holograp...y.htm/printable
http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/14742/?a=f
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_optical_data_storage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_memory

[cryptoknight]

Think about this... optical memory storage can squeeze a enormous amount of data into a VERY small area. I remember hearing about getting 1 TB of data into a sugar cube sized area. With SR level of tech... you get the picture. I've included links below so you guys will know where I got my info.

--------------------------------

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/holograp...y.htm/printable
http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/14742/?a=f
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_optical_data_storage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_memory

Just think of this though... Memory and Processors and Storage... while huge... should never be unlimited. From looking at the growing size of data, as the bandwidth and memory of computers grows, the data grows with it. Back in the days of 28.8 and slower, we downloaded MOD files... then with higher speeds MP3s... now it's video... That's only going to expand with simsense. Complete emotions/feelings for a movie isn't small.

And if you can cram unlimited stuff into a small PDA like thing... imagine what you can cram into a deck the size of a laptop, or the size of a modern day desktop.

[Heath Robinson]

With the wireless matrix you can access your home system or any number of remote storage systems relatively easily, it doesn't matter where your files are actually stored when you can get access to them in an instant no matter how distant they are. Whilst it might be important to determine where they are if your haMatrix Specialist gets trapped inside a faraday cage with something he needs to hack but the additional book-keeping isn't worth the fuss for what little depth it adds to the game. Handwaving away storage requirements keeps things more fluid.

[Moon-Hawk]

And if you can cram unlimited stuff into a small PDA like thing... imagine what you can cram into a deck the size of a laptop, or the size of a modern day desktop.

Infinity plus one?

The PDA-sized commlinks aren't actually a change from SR3 from my perspective. As soon as my players figured out they could use the deck creation rules to use cranial cyberdeck components with only a 20% markup, then not implant it (since that would take an absurd amount of essence and would totally suck), but rather put the whole thing in a much smaller (say, PDA-sized) case, and walk around without screaming "Hey I'm a Decker!" they became pretty much standard.

[Lyonheart]

[*]Commlinks, since when did my PDA have the processing power of my computer?

In or around 2005-2008

http://thydzik.com/matchboxPC/ That's a, admittedly anemic, full PC in a matchbox.
http://minipc.aopen.com/Global/ That's a Core II Duo in the Palm of your hand.
http://www.apple.com/macbookair/ That's a laptop that fits in a manila envelope.

Note that the size constants are...
1) the Screen
2) the Batteries

In Shadowrun we don't really need the screen, but you have one anyway, it rolls up to not be in the way. This is real world too, see
http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2006/...xible_lcds.html

So that leaves Batteries, but Shadowrun has man portable laser weapons, so lets not worry about that.

[Blog]

The other thing to remember is there are many many places to upload data to on the matrix.

Heck I remember reading one article about someone with a simrig and having their 'myspace' have access to their life experiences.

[BlueMax]

I disagree with the "Wait for Unwired" movement. Here are my reasons.

First, I don't expect any of the books to change the fundamentals in the BBB. Color and choice will be added, the system will not be rebuilt.
Second, Unwired is some time off. I've run entire campaigns in a six month period. (no street date yet so I picked a magic number)
Third, Knasser's site has some great matrix material that presents 4th ed matrix. So now, I can at least run the matrix smoothly.

Am I happy with 4th ed Matrix? No.
Do I want a radical rebuild? No.
Would I like a section on Secure Wired Matrix? Yes, but that wouldn't be Unwired, nor would it fit with 4th Ed.
Would I like to see the term Hacker shot by a firing squad? yes.

[nathanross]

Wow that hurts hobgoblin, still though, webforums, google, and the pirate bay already had places in the wired matrix. Nothing fundamental has (or should have) changed. It's not like there is some reason for the demise of data havens or Red-Hard/Ultraviolet Hosts, etc. I feel like the system has lost it's power scaling. Also, accessing a Host or RTG/LTG/PLTG was only the first test, what really set decking apart was the constant battle against the computer's logic. Now it is almost always a free-for-all once you have Admin.

I am perfectly fine with tech reducing in size and storage increasing exponentially. It would be narrow-minded to expect technology to remain in a vacuum, but like cryptoknight mentioned, as storage and processing power increases, so too does our need for it. In 2070, we are long past simple web pages and multimedia, we are swimming in a world of simsense. As our real tech improves, our imagination as to the possibilities also improves (anyone else remember the Matrix snapshots from Virtual Realities?)

I guess the way I feel is that technology has gone a step back. I like a more definite separation between the average users and the SOTA deckers. Right now there is just not enough of a gap.

[Pyritefoolsgold]

Wow that hurts hobgoblin, still though, webforums, google, and the pirate bay already had places in the wired matrix. Nothing fundamental has (or should have) changed. It's not like there is some reason for the demise of data havens or Red-Hard/Ultraviolet Hosts, etc. I feel like the system has lost it's power scaling. Also, accessing a Host or RTG/LTG/PLTG was only the first test, what really set decking apart was the constant battle against the computer's logic. Now it is almost always a free-for-all once you have Admin.

I am perfectly fine with tech reducing in size and storage increasing exponentially. It would be narrow-minded to expect technology to remain in a vacuum, but like cryptoknight mentioned, as storage and processing power increases, so too does our need for it. In 2070, we are long past simple web pages and multimedia, we are swimming in a world of simsense. As our real tech improves, our imagination as to the possibilities also improves (anyone else remember the Matrix snapshots from Virtual Realities?)

I guess the way I feel is that technology has gone a step back. I like a more definite separation between the average users and the SOTA deckers. Right now there is just not enough of a gap.

The memory requirements may have gone up, but memory isn't all necessarily in your comlink. The BBB refers to storing files on your shirt, in your gun, ect. I imagine people make use of that filespace if necessary.

[nathanross]

The memory requirements may have gone up, but memory isn't all necessarily in your comlink. The BBB refers to storing files on your shirt, in your gun, ect. I imagine people make use of that filespace if necessary.

I might "back up" my files on my shirt (damn that is a funny concept), but I wouldn't store it there. That is just foolish. My shirt is almost guaranteed to be shot at, why would I store my 6k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) appz there? It might be nice that you "can", but I prefer that as an option, not as the norm. No hacker/decker worth his salt would risk his important apps in his shirt.

[Cthulhudreams]

I just assume you have a fully redundant RAID array that includes your shirt, toaster, TV, car, watch and dog, and can then never ever loose anything unless you intentionally delete it, and the precise storage location is arbitary.

If you didn't do that, you'd store everything in your DNI (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Trobon]

I just assume you have a fully redundant RAID array that includes your shirt, toaster, TV, car, watch and dog, and can then never ever loose anything unless you intentionally delete it, and the precise storage location is arbitary.

If you didn't do that, you'd store everything in your DNI (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The problem is that, while it can be explained away, the fact that there is no need for storage limitation (except when the GM arbitrarily decides you don't have enough) makes it oversimplified. Part of the fun of being a decker was trying to figure out which programs you could fit in active memory at a time and trying to make sure you kept enough total memory for your runs so you could download the information.