So, this is something I have been thinking of for sometime. I know the SR3 Matrix rules were a bit too complex for most, but they had rules that covered a wireless Matrix, and were so far more complete you can hardly compare.

Has anyone tried adapting the variable TN to the SR4 core mechanic? I understand it would require a complete char gen balance shuffle (more BP in resources, less in skills, since I would like to bring back decks and reduce the hacking skills to one group that does not include hardware/electronics)

Please give your thoughts.

Or, y'know, rather than changing the Target number, change the threshold.

My thoughts are hang in there until you see what Unwired brings to the table. I've not seen it, but the rumor-mill seems to indicate that it's going to be sweet. If you're still unhappy with the rules once their complete in their published form (for now), then spending the effort to write your own rules might be more timely.

For what it's worth, if you haven't given the matrix rules a chance in real life, try them. I've been running SR4 since I got the book at GenCon the year it was released. I've never once seen any of the corner-case mathematical problems at the table that we all discuss so vehemently here. I've had probably 6 to 10 dedicate hackers at my table since then (probably about 1/3 or 1/4 of the players) and some of them were even Comp. Sci. majors at the local University, so if anyone was going to try and tweak the rules and break the system, you'd think it would have been them.

I'm not saying the rules don't have their holes, I'm just saying that those holes have not materialized in actual game play as often as they do here in theoretical conversations.

Have to agree with Dashifen. Can't name one incident in our games were any of the hypotheticals brought up here on dumpshock have actually come up in play. If anything 4th edition has actually gone smoother then any previous version when it comes to not slowing down the action. My current team has a dedicated hacker that not only fufills the old role of decker but also does command, control and coordination duties for the whole team. (Slaves teams commlinks for increased protection and tactical info sharing.)

I'm the source of most our groups matrix headaches. And they all involve me being a technomancer. But they are as I said, more headaches than actual problems.

The threading is the main thing that poses difficulty, we do rethreading (to stack) as free actions (instead of non-actions) so that I can use decent programs that I don't have Complex Forms of. The offshoot of this is if I have a combat turn to prepare I'm running the program I need at rating 10. I only use sprites for menial tasks or multi-tasking, usually I do everything myself. I have a sprite pilot drones, just so it can have a "real" brain in it instead of a program. Makes it alot more flexible in the commands it can take, but they don't usually have a much higher rating than the pilot.

I'm pretty much waiting for Unwired before trying to really stretch my Virtuakinetic muscle. The only real problem with the matrix as it exists now is a lack of examples and context for us to use to decipher it. All crunch and fluff, with no examples to tie the two together.

There are increasingly large numbers of Comp Sci majors who are doing it only for the employment prospects and don't think to apply it in their everyday life.

I'm one of the Comp Sci majors... And its that knowledge that keeps the system from being broken. The amount of Matrix unwritten allows me to fill in the blanks with my knowledge and stop game breaking actions, and provide challenges for the runners. So its probably not that they will try to break it due to things unwritten, as they see the unwritten side of it and don't think its that broken.

I had problems constantly, but thats because I see buying an agent as a game wrecking move, because suddenly the mage is sort of a major matrix contributor despite the fact he did get any programs (he leeched them as he needed them off the hacker) aside from the agent and he had a computer group of 0. So I banned agents and let him retcon.

And once the bloody hacker figured out that he lost.. nothing.. (okay two dice) by using AR (he had 3 wired IP anyway as he was a sort off.. sammie/hacker) and got complete immunity to pretty much anything in the GM tool box, I just got shirty.

Also, if you look at welcome in the shadows you can see everyone and their dog has brought an agent. That are stupidly common.

Like Dashifen said, I'd wait for Unwired before adapting the whole matrix system...
That being said, we do have some house rules going for the matrix...
For example, AR is at a maximum of 1 IP, Cold Sim is the usual 2 and Hot the usual 3...
While this makes very little sense in the realism department, it does give deckers a reason to go hot...
So if a decker had 3 IPs, he could use 1 for AR hacking and the other 2 for shooting/hitting/not getting shot...
We are also very careful with agents, since they can easily screw the system, but we've made no actual house rules regarding them...

Kind of like in the 70's when you had to have a dedicated "stereo guy" to set your equalizer on your 500 pound hi-fi system and now ever damn idiot on the planet has an Ipod in his pocket. Time does not stand still, just look at how computers have proliferated in past 20 years. Just a sign veteran runners are getting old and falling behind the curve when they can't grasp those new kids and there lack of respect for what you had to work with back in the 2050's.

BagBoy: " It's all Tac & Tech now. I remember when the troll with the acid green hair screamed commands over his phone watch. With the sound of minigun fire and death metal drowning him out, while we carried the mage out and the decker worked from 800 miles away...go figure."

Thanks for all the replies. I'm guessing that so far no one has done what I was hoping that had. Anyways, my main grief is not in the agent smith problem or any of this "broken" rules implications. My grief is that there is no fluff foundation for the SR4 matrix, and the devs just threw out years of work to simplify it.

Here are my major issues:

• Commlinks, since when did my PDA have the processing power of my computer?
• Why does a top of the line chip cost skittles more than a bottom of the line one?
• Basic Matrix architecture, how does a hierarchical system translate to wireless?
• The feel of 2070 matrix is like 2008 internet

First in defense of comm/deck issue. I am not saying that technology does not progress in 5 years, but this is just too big a change. I can see decks coming down in size, and gaining an absurd amount more memory, but not so much that you don't even need to consider memory anymore.

I understand that Mp is a total pain in the ass, and decking requires a spreadsheet to keep track of your programs, but everything fits. There is a designated way to do everything, and there is a reason for everything.

Also, while commlinks have been designed to communicate with the new wireless protocol, can the still access a wired matrix via jackpoint? My main reason for asking this is while in North America, most systems were hosed, Lofwyr saved all his grids via his own personal matrix kill switch. Since S-K owns most of the European grids, then most of Europe will probably be a combination of wired/wireless. Afterall, there is no money to be made in throwing a perfectly useful system away.

Radiation clusterfuck: The SR4 system, in the sake of simplicity, condensed all forms of electro magnetic radiation outside the visual spectrum into 1 giant heap that is used by all devices. This is stupid and should be changed.

Just some more things to think about.

I do understand your dilemma here. I've found myself more than once looking at my old 3rd edition matrix book and wondering if 4th edition is more or less fun as a decker. I have played a decker since second edition when we first got our game and have always loved playing one. However, hackers have seemed out of place in 4th edition. They no longer feel as mysterious and challenging as the older days. I know this is a good step for some reasons. I know it makes it easier for anyone to play a hacker just like the new magic system makes it easier for anyone to play a mage. However, it takes away some of the mystique that was associated with playing a good decker or a good mage. I mean there was a mage in our group that could do things that I couldn't even fathom. When I made a mage I couldn't think how to do half of it. However, when I was designing my deck or hacking into an Ares facility to grab the paydata my group heard the things I would talk about and have their minds blown.

Of coarse the main good thing about this is for GMs and if for no other reason I support the new system for them. I mean trying to keep track of the rules for regular combat and magic and the matrix was a real pain and this system is far easier to do.

I know this little rant doesn't exactly help you with your problem. I, also, would just wait until Unwired before deciding. I know I am waiting eagerly for it and will be ready to hand it off to my GM as soon as it comes out.

heh, lets hope that unwired brings back some of that mystery (without VR2.0 or matrix th SR2 and SR3 decker rules was not much mysterious imo).

btw, reading nathanross's last post makes me think about people talking about usenet, gopher or bbs's in front of a group of kids thats growing up with webforums, google and pirate bay...

as for a PDA having the power of a home computer. maybe not, but it has enough power to get the job done, and thats whats counts.

but then again, the deck of SR3 and older was in many ways the laptop of SR. if one wanted a desktop there was the breadboarding rules. the only way one could carry around one of those was by a large suitcase or similar iirc.

the one thing to keep in mind about the SR comlink tho is that its gone optical. the big problem for cpus today is the amount of heat being put out, and by that the wasted energy (and lets not forget the cooling). with optical the heat problem goes away and the only problem then becomes energy storage for the device. and SR handwaves that away.

Think about this... optical memory storage can squeeze a enormous amount of data into a VERY small area. I remember hearing about getting 1 TB of data into a sugar cube sized area. With SR level of tech... you get the picture. I've included links below so you guys will know where I got my info.

--------------------------------

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/holograp...y.htm/printable
http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/14742/?a=f
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_optical_data_storage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_memory

Just think of this though... Memory and Processors and Storage... while huge... should never be unlimited. From looking at the growing size of data, as the bandwidth and memory of computers grows, the data grows with it. Back in the days of 28.8 and slower, we downloaded MOD files... then with higher speeds MP3s... now it's video... That's only going to expand with simsense. Complete emotions/feelings for a movie isn't small.

And if you can cram unlimited stuff into a small PDA like thing... imagine what you can cram into a deck the size of a laptop, or the size of a modern day desktop.

With the wireless matrix you can access your home system or any number of remote storage systems relatively easily, it doesn't matter where your files are actually stored when you can get access to them in an instant no matter how distant they are. Whilst it might be important to determine where they are if your haMatrix Specialist gets trapped inside a faraday cage with something he needs to hack but the additional book-keeping isn't worth the fuss for what little depth it adds to the game. Handwaving away storage requirements keeps things more fluid.

Infinity plus one?

The PDA-sized commlinks aren't actually a change from SR3 from my perspective. As soon as my players figured out they could use the deck creation rules to use cranial cyberdeck components with only a 20% markup, then not implant it (since that would take an absurd amount of essence and would totally suck), but rather put the whole thing in a much smaller (say, PDA-sized) case, and walk around without screaming "Hey I'm a Decker!" they became pretty much standard.

In or around 2005-2008

http://thydzik.com/matchboxPC/ That's a, admittedly anemic, full PC in a matchbox.
http://minipc.aopen.com/Global/ That's a Core II Duo in the Palm of your hand.
http://www.apple.com/macbookair/ That's a laptop that fits in a manila envelope.

Note that the size constants are...
1) the Screen
2) the Batteries

In Shadowrun we don't really need the screen, but you have one anyway, it rolls up to not be in the way. This is real world too, see
http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2006/...xible_lcds.html

So that leaves Batteries, but Shadowrun has man portable laser weapons, so lets not worry about that.

The other thing to remember is there are many many places to upload data to on the matrix.

Heck I remember reading one article about someone with a simrig and having their 'myspace' have access to their life experiences.

I disagree with the "Wait for Unwired" movement. Here are my reasons.

First, I don't expect any of the books to change the fundamentals in the BBB. Color and choice will be added, the system will not be rebuilt.
Second, Unwired is some time off. I've run entire campaigns in a six month period. (no street date yet so I picked a magic number)
Third, Knasser's site has some great matrix material that presents 4th ed matrix. So now, I can at least run the matrix smoothly.

Am I happy with 4th ed Matrix? No.
Do I want a radical rebuild? No.
Would I like a section on Secure Wired Matrix? Yes, but that wouldn't be Unwired, nor would it fit with 4th Ed.
Would I like to see the term Hacker shot by a firing squad? yes.

Wow that hurts hobgoblin, still though, webforums, google, and the pirate bay already had places in the wired matrix. Nothing fundamental has (or should have) changed. It's not like there is some reason for the demise of data havens or Red-Hard/Ultraviolet Hosts, etc. I feel like the system has lost it's power scaling. Also, accessing a Host or RTG/LTG/PLTG was only the first test, what really set decking apart was the constant battle against the computer's logic. Now it is almost always a free-for-all once you have Admin.

I am perfectly fine with tech reducing in size and storage increasing exponentially. It would be narrow-minded to expect technology to remain in a vacuum, but like cryptoknight mentioned, as storage and processing power increases, so too does our need for it. In 2070, we are long past simple web pages and multimedia, we are swimming in a world of simsense. As our real tech improves, our imagination as to the possibilities also improves (anyone else remember the Matrix snapshots from Virtual Realities?)

I guess the way I feel is that technology has gone a step back. I like a more definite separation between the average users and the SOTA deckers. Right now there is just not enough of a gap.

The memory requirements may have gone up, but memory isn't all necessarily in your comlink. The BBB refers to storing files on your shirt, in your gun, ect. I imagine people make use of that filespace if necessary.

I might "back up" my files on my shirt (damn that is a funny concept), but I wouldn't store it there. That is just foolish. My shirt is almost guaranteed to be shot at, why would I store my 6k appz there? It might be nice that you "can", but I prefer that as an option, not as the norm. No hacker/decker worth his salt would risk his important apps in his shirt.

I just assume you have a fully redundant RAID array that includes your shirt, toaster, TV, car, watch and dog, and can then never ever loose anything unless you intentionally delete it, and the precise storage location is arbitary.

If you didn't do that, you'd store everything in your DNI

The problem is that, while it can be explained away, the fact that there is no need for storage limitation (except when the GM arbitrarily decides you don't have enough) makes it oversimplified. Part of the fun of being a decker was trying to figure out which programs you could fit in active memory at a time and trying to make sure you kept enough total memory for your runs so you could download the information.

I for one am glad, I don't have to worry about storage anymore. Just look at real world memory and storage prices.
4 Gigs of RAM is what most desktop computers can handle and you can grab those for less than 100€, same with storage. a 500GB harddrive costs what, 70€ ? I don't want to worry about those components anymore because I feel those should be part of my lifestyle costs as a hacker.
And juggling around programs in active memory, god where are we? Reminds me of the early 90s when I was a child, tinkering with config.sys to load drivers into highmem so I could free up most of the basic 640k to run my shareware games. And even then, hacking nowadays with the exception of en-/decryption is rarely hardware-limited.
Brute force hacking isn't that interesteing either, since there can be simple protective measures taken on remote PCs.

Edit: Ok, Buffer-overflow exploits can become memory intensive on the target machine but those are mostly prevented by execution protection or similar methods which are standard in any modern OS.

I don't know about the rest of you, but even with 4gb in my rig, I still am about 196gb away from perfection. The point is, computer technology will never outrun our desire for more functions. When power goes up, use goes up. Software and Hardware are in a constant equilibrium, and I felt that this was better reflected with Mp to juggle. I mean, you still have memory limitations, but it is no longer in terms of memory, but processing power.

This was more a point of "Memory will be so cheap you don't need to care". Apart from that, I consider the mechanics unnecessary micromanagement. On my machine I want the kernel to intelligently decide that FOR me instead of a message popping up: "Your RAM is full, please specify which processes to cache in swapspace!"
And in fact, today's OSes already do that fairly well, of course with the exception of WIndows again which has a "Swap everything to hard disk ASAP in case something new will start" approach - yet even that has it's advantages in everyday use. If one wants hacking in SR4 to be more immersive, he should care about making the hacking process itself more complex rather than bringing back worries from the prehistorics of computer technology.

Any problems I have with SR4's matrix are that it still didn't do enough to get away from Gibson's far-out shiny cyberspace nonsense.

Mind elaborating on why you feel Virtual Reality is a problem? I am curious, as I felt it was the real charm of SR Matrix. AR is nice and has potential, but I don't see it replacing VR.

I can see somewhat what you mean about unnecessary micro management, however, I fee that the current system of Response > System > Programs is too simplistic. There has to be a better way of doing it.

I find the system of Signal, Response and program ratings ok. My major gripes there are that you buy your programs like some script kiddie wanting to hack a myspace account. I hope for a better system to code your own software in Unwired without going "Ok, your hacker is out for *roll* 3 months writing his rating 6 firewall, do you have a spare character to use in that period? I might be a bit romantic about the business but in my eyes a true hacker's tools are inherent components of the system and what he codes himself on the fly. You pay for info on unpublished vulnerabilities rather than software.

As for my personal problems with VR it's just that it strikes me as fairly anachronistic. It was some wild vision in the early eighties, of course but I don't see it as an improvement over an AR-enabled workplace in most applications.
VR is a great tool for SimSense entertainment and there are certain special applications for example in simulating an engineering prototype without having to waste the resources on actually building it.
Other than that I get the feeling that most of my personal problems with it stem from me being a CS major, but then I see non-computer-savvy people having problems with many of the SR matrix metaphors like cybercombat for example.

I got problems with SR4's matrix though that fall in your category of lack of scaling though. Cryptography rather cryptology is a big point on my list. You can decrypt the world's strongest crypto-algorithm (rating 6 encrypt) within a few seconds with stuff you can buy at character creation. Why use encryption at all then? At any given time there's always some algorithm that'd take SOTA hardware a good few years to decrypt and then there's always OTP which is uncrackable unless you manage to get ahold of the key. In my games, runners at least don't have to worry about encrypting their own transmissions right now as I see free SOTA PKE as something completely normal in a society panicked with matrix crashes, data theft, technomancers and rampaging AIs.

I can see what you mean with the old 80's idea of VR being outdated. I would feel the same if it weren't for the fluff at the beginning of Arcology Shutdown (or was it Brainscan?) with Dodger. I love the idea of computing/programming done on an entirely metaphorical level.

The other aspect of VR is speed, where hours jacked in are only minutes in the meat. Talk about productivity! Though I also feel that afternoon siestas would be a requirement for Programmers (got to let your brain cool down! ).

You are right about Encryption, too. In SR4 rules it is a joke! I forget how much better/worse it was in SR3, though, so it is hard to say that it got worse. I think it would be entirely reasonable to require infiltration of said corp to get their individual algorithms. It also puts a lot more value on the face (assuming he has a boat load of corp contacts and can get the high security ones). Also, I miss being able to rent out a Red-host to do all your grunt work (hey, the Megas do it!). Seriously, though, Rating 6 cap is poop, especially since hackers start with 5 and have 6 within a run or two.

Some quick ideas for encryption/decryption

-Add a Cryptology skill.
-For encryption roll Cryptology+Encryption program. You can add a die for every day you spend doing the encryption up to twice your Cryptology skill.
-For every hit you can add 1 to the TN for the extended test for decryption or adding to the time to decrypt.
-The base TN is 0 and base time is 1 IP.
-points added form the encryption to time goes as follows:

0- 1 IP
1- 1 round
2- 1 Minute
3- 10 minutes
4- 1 hour
5- 1 Day

-You can not add more than 5 to the time.


Again this is very quick houseruling I made up on the spot so feel free to tear it apart. I have not run any simulations to see if this is broken or not.

By the way. After thinking about this for a couple minutes more it occured to me that there might be little reason to put your points into anything except time spent until you hit the 5 cap (except for at least 1 to TN). However, I could be wrong.

I have for a reason skipped RAS and Brainscan mostly because I still hope to finally find a GM who would run them with me. The locked-down arcology and experiments of DEUS remind me so much of the original System Shock computer game which was what got me into Cyberpunk in the first place.

The speed of VR hast mostly gone down in 4th though. You gain an extra initiative pass over cold sim and substitute response for reaction, that's it. And honestly I see no problem in that as there IS a limit for how fast the brain can think. I see the benefits of ASIST more in a mind/machine interface where code writes itself as you think it rather than clicking puzzle pieces max/MSP style.

As for the use of a face in hacking. You wouldn't know how much social engineering can do for you when compromising corp security. Disguise as a tech who's here to fix some problems with the AC, the photocopier or whatever and you'd be surprised how many office buildings you could infiltrate just to find the password for the central server's root account on a post-it note taped to the machine, or you could just get it from the office supervisor by asking him for it. There's a whole industry in trying to find and expose such leaks as that the corp might close them.
In fact, the next time I build a hacker char, I want to combine him with a face and see how this works out in SR.

Edit: Trobon, I have a similar houserule already in place. Something else I have in mind is bringing Response into it a bit more, to emphasize how decryption benefits from increased processing power. Then there'd also be a reason for a hacker to indeed rent time on a server farm. The problem I have right now is that if a hacker could rent himself a server farm with an equivalent of Response 18, why couldn't he link 3 Response 6 commlinks together to do the same. This could also lead to the players scavenging every commlink they can get their hands on.

I don't think linking comlinks together would give the same amount of response as a rented server would. The thing is that the comlinks would be limited in the fact that they have to throw information back and forth and share it with one another while processing the information. While this would help I don't think that it would increase the response by much especially if you consider response increases to be exponentially improving).

EDIT: Also an important thing to remember that comlinks in order to communicate with one another ave to have the same OS as one another in order to communicate well. Now if you have an exponential increase in the need for more comlinks linked to increase response and make it so you need to buy the same OS as each other to do so, the players may find it easier to set up their own servers than scavenging comlinks.

two thoughts on VR.

first, i find it strange that the writers didnt use the same mechanic of time that they did on firewall hacking to deal with data searches.

as in, when in VR, have the data searches go at a much faster pace then when using AR.

and on that note, on to my second point. what about giving the encryption double or tripple rating while going after it using AR, but when using VR it drops down to current rate? as in, write the effect of as some kind of ability of the mind to do insane rates of pattern matching or something like that to basically handwave it away.

that way you have your hacker go "oh crap, its encrypted. ill be back in 5, cover me" and then drops to VR to go after it. but after that can come back into AR and maintain the breach.

another interesting trick could be that one could reset the encryption after x rounds. as in, they rotate keys or encryption system ever so often. sure, you can make something virtually uncrackable that way by setting the rotation time so low that you either have to get it in one go or forget about it, but thats what one have edge for

and even after hacking in one would have to take a round or more to sync with the key rotation system or be cut of ones it spins round again. and if one happen to run into a high level firewall at the other end of that encryption, that can be hard to pull of and may draw ICE.

Yes I think one of the mistakes (ignoring well-known holes and vague rules open to many different interpretations) is the whole thing about AR/VR and input modes.

When you think about it AR with DNI I/O can be close to VR as far as action and reaction time are concerned since it's all done by thoughts. The only difference is that in one case you've got total feedback and in the other it's a little limited so that you can still perceive the real world.
But there will be a big difference between DNI and non-DNI AR use (there's no such thing as non-DNI VR).

Right now, according to the book, it'll be the same if you use a joystick/keyboard/AR Gloves or DNI in AR.

Those are some pretty good ideas and I think my players are about to run into some cycling encryption on some of the more sensitive datafiles in their next run.

glad you like it, even if cyclic encryption systems only really work for communications, not for files (but with SR files apparently being programs in their own right, that may change).

it was all a spur of the moment kind of thing...

To tap on communications I'd force the hacker to hack into either Alice or Bob and hook into either the pre-encrypted datastream, i.e. keylogging or just outright steal their private key.
Another problem if you'd use cyclig enctryption for files is that each time the encryption key is changed, the unencrypted contend would have to be loaded into the host's memory, leaving a point of attack for a possible hacker.

Blade got a very good point on AR speed though.

thats realism intruding on the fun...

If anything, a way to make the matrix more immersive is to reduce the number of rolls and start putting a lot more thought into the security of your computer systems (and not necessarily into making it harder to crack, remember the balance between security and usability). If they actually have to figure what the best way to crack the system is then they'll start being a lot more immersed in their matrix activities, as opposed to using them to get stuff for the benefit of the team.

The problem is that a well thought out security system will usually also lengthen the hacker's matrix trip, bringing back one of the major backdraws of deckers in earlier editions.