Gutter Rules Discussions, For DitG Players Options

[Eyeless Blond]

heheh, okay that's a good point. Nevada I think is really feeling that Long Haul now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In normal games this is a bad idea, because you can just find somewhere to crash when you're, er, "crashing", but in this case it's much more of a problem.

[lkim]

No one's going to resist it. I know, and that's kinda my idea.

Say, regular human street gang have body 3 and will 2, and using rate 1 Red Meanie.

For six hours he'll be more agile, quick, strong, determine and feels less pain (+1 bonus and pain resistance, plus negate the effect of combat paralysis and low pain tolerance).
But during those time, he can't be healed with rest, and after 6 hours, he'll be weak as sick puppy for next hour (all stats that got the bonus will reduce to 1 and grants combat paralysis and low pain tolerance or doubles the effect). And it is more addictive than regular drugs. (addiction rating at 3, and his will is now at 1)

If, this guy is a troll and almost maxed out his body to 9 and will to 5 got his hand on the rate 6 Red Meanie.

For 36 hours (a day and a half!) he'll be more agile, quick, strong, determine and feels less pain (+3 bonus and pain resistance, plus negate the effect of combat paralysis and low pain tolerance).
He can't heal by rest during those time, and when the programs finishes he'll turn into weak and coward street rat for next 6 hours. And what's the addiction rating? 2+(6/2)+(5) = 10 with 10 dice to roll. He's not going to resist the drug, but more addicted and may be if he uses couple of times more, he'll be burned out soon.

I think that's enough of negatives for any drugs. Being burned out, loss of essence or stat or whatever permanent effect that will effect him through out.

[Vegas]

heheh, okay that's a good point. Nevada I think is really feeling that Long Haul now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In normal games this is a bad idea, because you can just find somewhere to crash when you're, er, "crashing", but in this case it's much more of a problem.

If by feeling you mean not hearing or caring about anything going on around her at the moment, sure (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Believe me the "crash" of a drug/BTL is a good reason not to take them as addictions, especially in this game were as it's been pointed out, it can take a REALLY long time to get through a few hours or days of IC gameplay (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But hey, I could have handwaved the whole Long Haul bit or started it on 10/31, but I started out with it in game BEFORE Red October and the game began. I figured it was good RP fodder, since if someone/something wiped out the majority of my gang in one shot, I wouldn't want to really sleep any time soon myself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

You can find places to crash in this game, it just doesn't necessarily guarantee you won't be messed with while crashed out ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) If nothing else it gives players a LOT of RP angles and hooks to play out which don't necessarily need GM supervision/hand-holding which is a huge plus for this game being as character-driven as it is.

[Dantic]

I kinda agree with Eye here. I mean, if you are copying someone's behavior and stuff, why not skills?

Like I stated before, I don't have a problem with you "thinking" you can do all the stuff in the p-fix. If you read the history on skillwires, and read the SR4 description of skillsofts, there is a "muscle memory" aspect to skillsofts. P-fixes aren't meant to be a way to have you chip in and become rambo. The main purpous to p-fixes isn't usually to the advantage of the person chipping it, but to whoever is footing the bill, to get the persona "fixed" to their liking. That being said, because p-fixes do incorperate some skillsoft technology, I'd say someone p-fixing with skillwires could game some bonus, still not as great as a dedicated skillsoft, which is one program for one specific skill, not like a p-fix, where you are emulating an entire persona. I think that you are doing a severe disservice to game balance, if you revamp p-fix BTLs, to the point where you are gaining more benifits than someone who has spent the time and resources to get a suit of skillsofts/knowsofts, and the appropriate cyber. For example a dedicated active skill at rating 1 cost 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , a dedicated knowsoft at rating 1 cost 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and the skillwires to run at rating 1 cost 2000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , so according to you a chiphead can jack a p-fix and get a suite of knowsofts and skillsofts in one shot, with some drawbacks, but at a reduced cost, especially if the chip is not set to burn out after one use.

[WinterRat1]

Quick reply here to a PM lkim sent me:

I appreciate all the work everyone is doing on this, I think having BTLs with actual game effects of some type will add a lot to the game, even if it's just specifying say, disorientation following usage as some have suggested.

Anyway, a few notes:

1. I do not want to see anything from anyone until it has been cleared by Eyeless Blond. He is my 'man on the ground' so to speak, and until he approves it, I'm not even going to look at whatever you send me for comments/review/approval.

I don't have time to be a part of this process, that's why I am having you guys figure out how it's going to work and put Eyeless in charge of generally monitoring and leading the discussion. He and I have a pretty good working history and know one another, so he has a good idea of what I'm looking for and why. I want this to be a collaborative process as much as possible, but I realize sometimes someone has to make decisions, so Eyeless is the guy who determines what ultimately goes into whatever draft I'm eventually going to see.

After you send me the draft, I'll review it, comment where necessary, and send it back if I think anything needs to be changed/evaluated in more detail. We will repeat the process until we have a rule set we're comfortable with.

2. When you have a completed draft ready for me to review, please do not send it to me with spoilers within spoilers within spoilers. Email it to me in a word document or a PM that is organized and easily printable so I can actually review it and not have to navigate it.

Thanks for the hard work everyone, I'm looking forward to seeing what you all come up with!

[lkim]

For example a dedicated active skill at rating 1 cost 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , a dedicated knowsoft at rating 1 cost 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and the skillwires to run at rating 1 cost 2000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , so according to you a chiphead can jack a p-fix and get a suite of knowsofts and skillsofts in one shot, with some drawbacks, but at a reduced cost, especially if the chip is not set to burn out after one use.

Yes, it is true that P-fix at rating 1 is only 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , where if you want to get the same effect with skillwire you'll need to pay at least 8000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and essence of 0.3. But, under the influence of the P-fix, user cannot use his/her natural, learned skill, where with the skillwire, they still could. Skillwire users also doesn't suffers from the amnesia or "forget" how to use their own skills for sometimes. And most of all, if P-fix users continuously use the same programs over and over, they will starts to get more serious and permanent negative effects. Loss of essence or stats, developing multiple personality, or something other.

Now, benefit of using P-fix in street level. If someone, say my character, uses P-fix with persona of drug cooker to keep producing drugs while the main cooking guy is out (death, injury, etc.). Until we get some decent cooker for the gang, anyone could be working as drug cooker with P-fix. I cannot, however, make BTL, fight, or know gang ID, turf, or any other knowledge I might have, during this time, because, well I'm working at the chem lab, but also I don't know how under the influence.

With skillwires and programs, it can also be done. But, it's too expensive and hard to get in the street. P-fix can solve these kind of problems easy, in expense of person's life.

[Eyeless Blond]

Heh, okay, so if I'm going to have veto power; then I guess I have to be less of an advocate for my own ideas, and more of a moderator.

In that vein, I feel I need to summarize what we've done so far, and to guide the discussion a little. Spike and Whipstitch's concerns that BTL addiction already have positives, in that they don't have as bad a "crash" as actual drugs, and that they are mentally addictive rather than physically addictive (and so are resisted by Wil+Logic, instead of Wil+Body) are duly noted, and are why I've dropped the idea of giving dreamchips further positives. Seeing that other chips are more addictive than dreamchips, it stands to reason that they should have more things going for them. If there are still concerns in this vein, please speak up again, before we get too far ahead of ourselves.

We have some great proposals from Ikim, and there's good discussion on that front. One major sticking point I'm having is with the addiction thresholds. The thing is, we already have addiction thresholds spelled out to us in the book: dreamchips have threshold 1, p-fixes and moodchips have threshold 2, and tripchips have threshold 3. All things equal, I'd very much like to keep everything that the book has to say on the subject of BTLs, including these addiction thresholds. This still leaves everything that the book did not provide us: Duration, Effect (while on the high), Side Effect (things that happen afterwards, like the "crash" that follows most drugs), and Price and Availability, which are very poorly defined by the book.

Every time we can point to the book and show that it agrees with us, and that we are only expanding on things that are either undefined or poorly defined, makes me more comfortable with the ruleset, and I guarantee will make it more likely to be accepted by WinterRat. This isn't to say that we can't toss out the book in places; everyone here has things that they hate about the rules, and wish they could change. But there has to be a very, very good reason for the change, and so far I'm not seeing it here. Having super-high addiction thresholds hearkens back to the bad old days in SR3 when taking a single drag put you into a downward spiral that would have you dying of Essence Loss inside a month. It's fine IMO for some drugs to not get you hooked the very first time you try something: can anyone here who smokes, and who remembers their first cigarette, care to confirm or deny this one? Maybe if we were playing Shadowrun: D.A.R.E. Edition... but we're not.

[lkim]

For the addiction threshold, I only added because of rating system. If it doesn't have any rating system, I'm fine with that. Also, for the O.D., BBB states drugs can OD by every (body) dose and inflicts extra box of damage, I just changed them to be on the addiction threshold, since I wasn't going to make BTL do the damage to the user.

[Spike]

I don't smoke, though I have, and grew up with smokers and I can tell you MOST of the smoking tales I've heard involve getting past those first few cigs until the addiction hit...

Maybe not so crudely put, but almost every 'first cig' story I heard does not come off as a pleasant 'repeatable' expirence, and lacking peer pressure, one that is unlikely to be repeated. I'm guessing that there is a reason you can't buy 'singles' anywhere... too many chances to get new smokers hooked when they buy just one and never buy another... with the pack they've got 24 chances to get hooked and we hate throwing stuff away that is useable...


Not that its important to BTLs but you did ask...

[lkim]

Before I go back to class, I would just like to add this. It's more of concept so I'll be editing this.

BTL Tolerance
Just like any other drugs on the street, BTL users can also develop tolerance over it. Every time user of BTL fails on the addiction test or OD on BTL, make a test of Will+Log (rating). If target number is beat, he gains tolerance (yes, this test you want to fail). Once you have tolerance for that rating and down to (rating-2) min. 1, users are only effected with half of the bonus for half of duration with the same side effects. BTL rating-3 or below has no effect on user anymore.

Ex. Will 3, Log 4 character (mine) OD on rate 1 mood chip. He'll do the tolerance test, and with beat the target threshold. He gain tolerance (BTL, Mood 1). From now on every time he use the Mood rating 1, he'll only get half of effect and duration. Same character OD on rate 4 p-fix. He does the tolerance test, and somehow he beat the number again. He now has tolerance (BTL, P-fix 4). From now on P-fix rating 2, 3, and 4 only gets half of the effect and duration and P-fix rate 1 doesn't have any effect on him.

It's just a rough sketch but what do you think?

[Eyeless Blond]

How is this different from the book rules, other than Wil+Log instead of Wil+Bod? Don't have my book on me.

[lkim]

How is this different from the book rules, other than Wil+Log instead of Wil+Bod? Don't have my book on me.

I'm assuming you are talking about the BTL tolerance? I don't think there was rule for that. In the book it only said, "Moderate addiction have developed tolerances and stronger cravings, so they may use more frequently, take stronger dosages, or move on to a harder substance." (BBB 248)

[Eyeless Blond]

That's 'cause it's in Arsenal, p. 73:

"They say you can never get high like the first time. That may
not be strictly true for some of the weirder designer drugs available
in the 2070s, but as a general maxim it remains correct. Over time,
characters who use a drug steadily will need to consume more of
the drug at once to achieve the desired effect. Tolerance is tied to
the character’s history with drugs, represented by the Addiction
quality (see Addiction, p. 80, SR4). Every time a character’s
Addiction increases, the character must consume twice as much
of the drug to obtain the same effects. Characters with a tolerance
only suffer overdoses when taking more of a drug than they need
to achieve the effects of a single dose."

Pretty simple: every time your addiction level increases (and, if you add in the other rule in BBB p. 248, if you roll a critical glitch on the addiction test), you need to take twice as much to get the same effect. In this case, since BTLs are measured in Ratings rather than doses, it means that the rating would be decreased by 1 per level of addiction, plus the number of times the character rolled a critical glitch on his/her Addiction test.

[Dantic]

I would like to request that Eyeless hold off on submiting anything on BTLs till after this weekend (April 5,6) there are few things I'd like to weigh in with, probably even submit some specific alternatives, but I need a little time to work on it. I'm not trying to be combatitive on any particular points, I just dissagree with some of the viewpoints that have been, seemingly, at the front in regards to BTL benifits (not just p-fixes, but that has been my focus), realizing that BTLs are going to be given some "mechanical" advandages/disadvantages, I don't want to just argue and put down ideas advanced by my fellow players here, so I'd like a chance to put together some alternative takes on the subject and give everyone a chance to get a different look to think about (more than one way to skin a cat). Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Eyeless Blond]

Oh don't worry, we have plenty of time until anything is finalized. At the very least we'll have to wait until after Apr 15th, which is tax day and the end of WR's crunch time; I'm dead certain he won't be looking at anything until after then anyway. So weeks at the very least, and likely more, depending on the amount of debate here.

[lkim]

Hey, sorry I've been missing couple of days. I was busy with school and work.

@Eye
Oh~ they have in the Arsenal. I don't have that book, so...

[Eyeless Blond]

Ah, yes, I see the problem there. Well, that's pretty much the only rule in Arsenal that could pertain to BTLs, so I think everything else is going to be original.

Anyone who currently has the book care to back me up?

[lkim]

@Eye

For the production of BTL, I was thinking of copying the original BTL, since we (everyone in the game) doesn't have the resources to actually make it.
So, here's skeletal structure of the process I think it would be suitable.

*I was thinking of chip version of BTL
1. Bypass the temper proof. This would be done by Hardware + Logic (6+Rating or Rating X 2, 1hour) and need tool kit(microtronics), may be.
2. Decrypt the codes. Electronic Warfare + Decrypt (Rating X 2, 1 combat turn). (BBB P. 225)
3. Edit the program. To change the chip's copy protection code, may be? Hacking + Edit or Computer + Edit (Rating X 2, 1 hour).
4. Copy the BTL into chip. This would require tool kit (BTL copier or chip copier) or above. Max number of chips that can be copied are (Rate X 5) at Rating one lower than the original and original burns out. I'm not sure what kind of skill or attribute or programs will be needed, but target number should be the number of copies you are trying to make. If I'm making copies from the rate 4 BTL, I would have target number of 20, and every hit is successful copies.
5. Edit the programs to have copy protection code. This can actually done after step 3 before step 4, or just reactivating copy protection from the original (since the codes are already there, I just de-activated to make copies).
6. Encrypt the BTLs. Electronic Warfare + Encrypt (Rate of copy X 2, 1 hour) would be the standards, but trying to encrypt 20 rate 3 BTL chips are just too much work, even if it's just dice roll. Any good ideas?
7. Place temper proof. Again this would be Hardware + Logic (New Rate X 2, 1 hour), but just too much work. Any good ideas to shorten it?
8. Start selling.

Step 1-4, 8 is must. 5-7 is optional.

At step 1, 2 and 3, if glitched, chips will burn out.
At step 4, if glitched copying process stops and the number of copies made so far counts. If critical glitch, the whole chips are useless.
At step 5, 6 and 7, any glitch will cause the chips to burn out.

What do you think?

Also, there are some programing options for BTL in CC 66-68, and one option, Degrading, seems very good option to have in the game, since the price are 75% of the regular chips and every use the rating goes down by 1, or One Shot option where price are only 50% of regular chips. Of course one time use are standard in all chips, but we can say that's hardware function, but this One Shot option is in the program of BTL, thus harder for user to manipulate.

[Eyeless Blond]

Again, let's try to stick to the book as much as possible. Copying a BTL shouldn't be much more trouble than copying any other program, and that's described under source code and privacy in the SR4 book, Matrix chapter. If someone else has the book available and can quote what rules are available, then go for it, or I'll do it when I get back home.

Basically the process should be two steps:

1) Cracking the BTL's copy protection (note there wouldn't be encryption; encryption is to keep anyone from viewing the file/executing the program; such a thing wouldn't apply for a BTL, whose purpose is meant to be played).
1a) Note that doing this to a one-shot BTL involves reading the BTL, and thus would likely destroy it. Better hope you get it right the first time.

2) Copying the program to a new chip. This should be a test of its own, especially if you want to preserve the copy protection that deleted the one-shot BTLs after a single use (thus guaranteeing your profits), otherwise you'll have to keep getting new stuff to keep your chippers happy.

If you want to try to pass the chip off as "legit" you'll also need a Forgery test to decorate the chip to look like the original. That would be a possible step 3.

[lkim]

"duplicate a program that is copy-protected, he needs to break the protection. This requires an Extended Software + Logic Test with a threshold between 10 and 20 (gamemaster’s discretion) and an interval of 1 hour." (BBB 228)

So, on step 3, it is Software + Logic (10~20, 1 hour) instead of Hacking + Edit or Computer + Edit (Rating X 2, 1 hour) as I was assuming.

[Eyeless Blond]

Yes, but steps 1 and 2 don't exist (and by extension 6 and 7 either). The copy protection *is* the "tamper proof"; other than that it's just a universal memory chip. As for encryption, that wouldn't be present on a BTL, just as movies today aren't encrypted: you can't use a file that's encrypted if you don't also have the decryption key, and if you have that then why would you need to use decrypt?

That basically makes your proposal and mine the same, though mine adds a Forgery test as well.

Do we have anyone else who wants to comment on the copying BTLs (analogous to DitG drug cutting), or stats for existing BTLs?

[lkim]

I see. Yeah that's more simple and I do see why step 1,2,6,7 won't be needed. But would it need forgery? I mean chips are chip, whether its BTL or not.

[Dantic]

As I'm not a GM I can't make any definitive rulings, but, given what's currently going on in the thread itself, I think it's fairly safe to say that we have plenty of time before BTL production itself is anything like a problem. At the most all we'll need to decide is which Active/Knowledge skills would be needed to produce BTLs (I'm assuming Software and Forgery at the minimum for Active skills, maybe Artisan for original work, along with appropriate Knowledges), and we can take our time with the rest. You're not going to be burning a BTL chip tonight, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I dissagree with Forgery, you're not trying to "fake" anything here, just hack it, or edit it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Dantic]

If you want to try to pass the chip off as "legit" you'll also need a Forgery test to decorate the chip to look like the original. That would be a possible step 3.

Following up, even if, for exaple there is a popular chip out there, known as "double sunshine" a mood chip with a sunburst hologram design on it. This holo is still not likely to be as intricate as money, IDs, etc. as far as design, even if it has some sort of imbedded micro printing in the holo layers to ID it as the "real deal", you're not trying to fool the makers out looking for counterfitters, just trying to make it pretty enough to fool the "chipheads" you're selling too. I think some simple artisanship (maybe Ink) or just someone with a high intuition, defaulting, could do well enough.


<EDIT> Still planning on posting a proposal myself, just a bit busy, will get to it, I promise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

[lkim]

Hey people, I know I'm inactive character, but that was my choice and I'll still work on the BTL rules.

@Dantic
Take your time, it's not rushing matter.