Eyeless Blond
Mar 29 2008, 05:33 AM
This thread is dedicated to discussions of house rules for
Down In The Gutter.
Down in the Gutter WikiSpecific Sections of Interest Include:
About Down in the Gutter - This is a
MUST read before committing to this game.
Character Generation House Rules
Posting GuidelinesThe Game threads can be found here:
DITG IC Thread
DITG OOC ThreadFirst up on the docket is more detailed rules for BTL effects and production. Our lead GM and others (including myself) like the idea of giving BTLs explicit game-mechanical advantages/disadvantages, to flesh out the flavor of BTLs, to balance their cost with benefits, much as other drugs do, and to make the chip's Rating actually meaningful as something more than mere fluff. Do we have other arguments for/against?
Once there, we need to set costs for each type of BTL.
Then we can set our sights on the specifics of BTL creation, which IMO should fall somewhere between the rules for creating drugs and the rules for creating programs. It should involve multiple steps and disparate skillsets (there should be a good place in the rules for Nevada, for instance, to strut her stuff as a BTL pornstar and have it be meaningful to the final product that she actually does have skills), and above all should feature lots of room to grow.
This has the potential to be important to many characters, depending on how tight and fun the rules are. So let's get cracking.
Spike
Mar 29 2008, 07:05 AM
I'm not really up to creating full on rules (and I've already stressed my dislike for 'bonuses' for BTL addictions anyway. Most drugs, and druggies are more about the experience than some mythical bonus they get... should drunks get bonus body or will while staggeringly wasted? I don't think so, and I don't know anyone who drinks because it makes them tougher or more stubborn... or any other improvement.
Yes, a very very weak case could be made regarding charisma and being drunk. I manage a weak chuckle and it dissapates like so much smoke in a stiff breeze.
That said, I've got two very long posts that are easy to find on teh main forums inspired by some of the discussion from DitG.
Needless to say, I expect that BTL production and even, yes, counterfeited credsticks would be right up the alley of a street gang, but only as nickel and dime operations. I've gone over the RP aspects to both 'career' fields, and I think Winter is on the wrong track asking for detailed rules.. the rules are simple, the effect of the rules however...
Basically, creating BTLs involves a great deal of playing the game to get the right stuff (tracks) to produce them, determining your target market and producing the product you think they want. Putting it all together properly requires the application of a few active skills that already exist. Hardware, software, artisan.. even negotation to determine proper asking price. Most BTLs the gang produces would be very low rent (10
would be a good cost per chip), with occasional 'special deals' making much better money per chip, but moving less volume. The key to making any money at the 'game' is selling lots and lots of these little bastards. You set up a stall on the street, or sell them under the counter at a storefront. This is the barrens, and these aren't chemical cocktails. Hell the gang hookers could sell them to johns for a little extra, every sell is nuyen in the pocket.
Eyeless Blond
Mar 29 2008, 10:17 PM
QUOTE (Spike @ Mar 29 2008, 12:05 AM)
I'm not really up to creating full on rules (and I've already stressed my dislike for 'bonuses' for BTL addictions anyway. Most drugs, and druggies are more about the experience than some mythical bonus they get... should drunks get bonus body or will while staggeringly wasted? I don't think so, and I don't know anyone who drinks because it makes them tougher or more stubborn... or any other improvement.
Yes, a very very weak case could be made regarding charisma and being drunk. I manage a weak chuckle and it dissapates like so much smoke in a stiff breeze.
Actually I'd go with a decrease in LOG, REA and Perception, an increase in WILL or maybe STR, as well as Pain Resistance 1. Nothing on the level of meth or coke or heroin, of course, but there's a reason people in the 19th centuries used to give people a swig of whisky before performing surgery.
Characters take drugs for their effects. If they didn't do anything, no one would take them. The same thing applies to players. If BTLs don't do anything, then there's no reason to ever start, and if you did take an Addiction flaw, no reason to tempt fate by taking them more than you are absolutely required to. Maybe you don't think that's a problem. I do, because as much as possible I like to keep my RP rewards/risks and my mechanical rewards/risks separate: mechanical rewards shouldn't come (exclusively) with RP risks; RP rewards shouldn't come (exclusively) with mechanical risks. At the very least, I'd like to have a mechanical justification for why moodchips and Personafixes are more addictive than dreamchips, and why tripchips are more addictive than any of the others. (as per p. 248 BBB)
QUOTE
Needless to say, I expect that BTL production and even, yes, counterfeited credsticks would be right up the alley of a street gang, but only as nickel and dime operations. I've gone over the RP aspects to both 'career' fields, and I think Winter is on the wrong track asking for detailed rules.. the rules are simple, the effect of the rules however...
Basically, creating BTLs involves a great deal of playing the game to get the right stuff (tracks) to produce them, determining your target market and producing the product you think they want. Putting it all together properly requires the application of a few active skills that already exist. Hardware, software, artisan.. even negotation to determine proper asking price. Most BTLs the gang produces would be very low rent (10
would be a good cost per chip), with occasional 'special deals' making much better money per chip, but moving less volume. The key to making any money at the 'game' is selling lots and lots of these little bastards. You set up a stall on the street, or sell them under the counter at a storefront. This is the barrens, and these aren't chemical cocktails. Hell the gang hookers could sell them to johns for a little extra, every sell is nuyen in the pocket.
I think the best thing we could come up with would be ways to make
original BTLs, with a simrig and some good videoediting skills? I'm sure
Nevada would be interested in a career beyond prostitution: maybe porn actress would be a step up?
Heck, what if we could get a simrig hooked up to
Legion, and have him make an action movie? or even better,
Grack giving a guided tour of the sewer system?
WinterRat1
Mar 29 2008, 11:44 PM
Just dropping by for a moment, by Eyes pretty much hit my perspective right on the head. Players are notorious, and I mean NOTORIOUSLY bad at actually role-playing disadvantages, especially when there's no mechanical benefit/reason to do so. I don't have time to police every nuance of 15-20 PCs for details like that, so having built in mechanics helps me tremendously.
Giving BTLs concrete advantages/disadvantages makes them more material to the game than just saying 'my PC spaces out on BTLs' for a while.
The rules are simple because they don't actually tell you anything in depth.
It's like the Matrix rules; they're fine if you just want to play a standard SR campaign, but if you want to make the Matrix the focus of your game, you'll rapidly realize the rules as written flat out do not support the concepts the fluff material is based upon.
Same thing here, if we were running a normal Shadowrun game, the rules would work fine for us. But if making BTLs is a focus of your characters, what am I supposed to do, just reduce everything to a bunch of dice rolls and have you guys say, 'we sit around for X hours making BTLs'. Not only is that idiotic and no fun for anyone, how can you even role-play making BTLs when the fluff concepts have no concrete mechanics to illustrate the steps/procedure you'd need to play out?
Eyeless Blond
Mar 30 2008, 01:09 AM
QUOTE (Spike @ Mar 29 2008, 05:21 PM)
Of course, I'm not entirely certain what skills are used to hotwire a car in 2070 in the barrens... Maus can drive a little (DP 4 I think...), but I've got no idea if he's capable of actually BOOSTING a car, which was what the Boys did before they started chopping.
Awww, crap, he had to say it. Well, looks like we've got another thing to work on...
Dantic
Mar 30 2008, 02:34 AM
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 29 2008, 09:09 PM)
Awww, crap, he had to say it. Well, looks like we've got another thing to work on...
Normal car, bike, copter, etc. Mechanic skill extended test vs (8+Security System Rating), 1 Combat Turn
Rigger adapted, hack in using standard rules.
Eyeless Blond
Mar 30 2008, 03:51 AM
Oh, wait, never mind; this is covered in Arsenal, p.104. Except it's kind of not; the book basically says that all cars have maglocks, and if you can pick the maglock you can boost the car. I'm not sure I like that; first of all has everyone here bought maglocks for their vehicles? I doubt it; that means that anyone can just pick up your bike and drive off with it, no test.
I like Dantic's rule, and suggest we add that to the basically maglock-only rules. Best of all, this gives us three highly skilled car thieves already, maybe four. Anyone else other than Drip, Dozer and Child with good Hardware/Mechanic skills?
Dantic
Mar 30 2008, 05:45 AM
I think that bypassing the locks, either with transponder keys or bypassing maglocks would get you into the car, but in the barrens, most people wouldn't have very advanced systems, better to just break out a window if it's not bulletproof glass.
Normaly I would've agreed with the arsenal threshold of 8, 1 minute. I said 8+security system, 1 combat turn, because it works better if you are trying to boost a car, while the pissed off ganger owners are coming after you, rushing against the clock to get the car started, while your buddies try to hold off the gang from getting in and stopping you.
Dantic
Mar 30 2008, 05:51 AM
QUOTE (lkim @ Mar 29 2008, 04:27 PM)
Ok, here's the bit of stat I would give to BTL.
[ Spoiler ]
Dream Chip (Rate 1-6)
Duration: 20 Min. x Rate
Effect: Put user in dreamlike state, where he can become anyone. Hero, criminal on the run, hot stud banging sexy elf, or whoever its in the program.
Side effect: User of Dream Chips are mostly unaware of their surrounding, even with RAS override feature disabled.
After effect: When Dream Chips are in use, users seems to be in rest or sleeping like state, they are not. Because of BTL's false signal to the brain, brain actually believes it's own body is active/moving. This makes the user feels fatigue, fear, or aroused depend on what program was running.
Price: Rate x 60
Availability: Rating + 1
Note: User may actively change their POV. Number of POV = Rate x 2
Trip Chip (Rate 1-6)
Duration: 10 Min. x Rate
Effect: Let user flooded with interesting visual (seeing everything in double, only seeing in one or two color), auditory (hearing user's own heart beat, or rushing of blood around body), tactile (feels every touch to be ecstasy), taste (everything you eat taste like chocolates or raw egg), and olfactory (smell of roses all around you where ever you go) sensations.
Side effect: While user is in the effect of Trip Chip, it makes them hard to perceive through that sense or senses.
After effect: After Trip Chip run its course, user is almost impossible to use that sense for periods of time equal to the duration.
Price: Rate x 40
Availability: Rating
Note: Each rating add additional sense in its program. At rate 6, however, it changes users sense like "see" the smell, "feel" the hearing, or "hear" the taste.
Mood Chip (Rate 1-6)
Duration: 30 Min. x Rate
Effect: User of Mood Chip feels what was recorded in the program. This can be range from euphoria to sexual urges to aggressive tendencies, and to dark feelings such as terror and hate.
Side effect: When user is in effect of Mood Chip, it is hard for user to feel other emotions. Example might be user feels sexual urges in the forensic lab while cutting the body open.
After effect: When Mood Chip run its course, user feels opposite feeling for the duration of time equal to the duration of Mood Chip.
Price: Rate x 50
Availability: Rating - 1
Note: Each rating of Mood Chip may add another emotion at the same time or have second course of different emotion, which in that case, opposite feeling comes in order.
P-Fix (Rate 1-6)
Duration: 30 Min. x Rate
Effect: User of P-fix become someone else, giving them the appropriate skills to become that person.
Side effect: While under the influence of the P-fix, user are not allow to use their own skills or knowledge.
After effect: When P-fix run its course, user of P-fix feels as if their body isn't theirs. User feels disoriented.
Price: Rate x 100
Availability: Rate + 2
Note: Every rate of P-fix gives number of active skills equal to Rate/2 at (Rate-2) skill rate Min. 1. It also gives user number of Knowledge skills equal to Rate at (Rate-1) skill rate Min. 1.
And this is stat of BTL, with advantage and disadvantage.
[ Spoiler ]
Dream Chip (Rate 1-6)
Duration: 20 Min. x Rate
Effect: Put user in dreamlike state, where he can become anyone. Hero, criminal on the run, hot stud banging sexy elf, or whoever its in the program.
Side effect: User of Dream Chips are mostly unaware of their surrounding, even with RAS override feature disabled.
After effect: When Dream Chips are in use, users seems to be in rest or sleeping like state, they are not. Because of BTL's false signal to the brain, brain actually believes it's own body is active/moving. This makes the user feels fatigue, fear, or aroused depend on what program was running.
Price: Rate x 60
Availability: Rating + 1
Note: User may actively change their POV. Number of POV = Rate x 2
Advantage: Nothing, Dream Chips are just simsenses with jacked up emotion/senses.
Disadvantage: After program runs its course, user feels disoriented.
Trip Chip (Rate 1-6)
Duration: 10 Min. x Rate
Effect: Let user flooded with interesting visual (seeing everything in double, only seeing in one or two color), auditory (hearing user's own heart beat, or rushing of blood around body), tactile (feels every touch to be ecstasy), taste (everything you eat taste like chocolates or raw egg), and olfactory (smell of roses all around you where ever you go) sensations.
Price: Rate x 40
Availability: Rating
Advantage: While under the BTL's influence, user's sense are more accurate/enhanced. Giving them Rate/2 bonus to the appropriate senses.
Disadvantage: After BTL have run its course, user gets negative bonuses to the sense that was enhanced for the duration equal to the duration of BTL.
Mood Chip (Rate 1-6)
Duration: 30 Min. x Rate
Effect: User of Mood Chip feels what was recorded in the program. This can be range from euphoria to sexual urges to aggressive tendencies, and to dark feelings such as terror and hate.
Side effect: When user is in effect of Mood Chip, it is hard for user to feel other emotions. Example might be user feels sexual urges in the forensic lab while cutting the body open.
After effect: When Mood Chip run its course, user feels opposite feeling for the duration of time equal to the duration of Mood Chip.
Price: Rate x 50
Availability: Rating - 1
Advantage: Each Mood Chip gives different bonuses to the user. Example, Red Meanie gives user +1 to all the physical stats and high pain tolerance 3 for the duration of the BTL. White Cool gives user work under the pressure, thus giving them +1 bonus to any tech skills.
Disadvantage: Whatever bonus was given during the BTL's influence, when the effect wears off, user are given negative bonus to the same stat, skill, etc., for the duration equal to the duration of the BTL.
P-Fix (Rate 1-6)
Duration: 30 Min. x Rate
Effect: User of P-fix become someone else, giving them the appropriate skills to become that person.
Side effect: While under the influence of the P-fix, user are not allow to use their own skills or knowledge.
After effect: When P-fix run its course, user of P-fix feels as if their body isn't theirs. User feels disoriented.
Price: Rate x 100
Availability: Rate + 2
Advantage: Every rate of P-fix gives number of active skills equal to Rate/2 at (Rate-2) skill rate Min. 1. It also gives user number of Knowledge skills equal to Rate at (Rate-1) skill rate Min. 1.
Disadvantage: After BTL run its course all the skill user possessed are treated with rating of 1, due to comfortableness of their body/skill.
Comments?
Moved this over from recruting
Dantic
Mar 30 2008, 06:05 AM
<EDIT> Edited this out because of some funky double post thing. Just read the next post.
Dantic
Mar 30 2008, 06:18 AM
One thing I'd like to touch on real quick is the idea of changing POVs and hooking up this person or that to a simrig and having them "star" in a sim.
Changing POV isn't just like changing camera views in a movie and 3rd person perspective is out of the question, except maybe for a wierd out of body tripchip. You'd basicaly be jumping into different "bodies" or personas.
I don't know that a group of gangers would make the ideal sim stars, but whatever floats your boat.
I don't know about the advantages/disadvantages of BTLs, but I kind of like the idea that while using p-fix, you gain some knowledge skills while using it, but not after unplugging (including language). Say gain number of knowledge skills = rating, only skills apropriate to the sim. After unplugging you would loose acess to the new skills, and suffer from disorentation for a number of hours equal to the rating of the chip (after all you were basicaly turned into a different person. I don't like the idea of gaining active skills, due to the overlap with skill wires, but by all means, you may "think" you know how to do new stuff.
lkim
Mar 31 2008, 12:18 AM
QUOTE
One thing I'd like to touch on real quick is the idea of changing POVs and hooking up this person or that to a simrig and having them "star" in a sim.
Changing POV isn't just like changing camera views in a movie and 3rd person perspective is out of the question, except maybe for a wierd out of body tripchip. You'd basicaly be jumping into different "bodies" or personas.
I don't know that a group of gangers would make the ideal sim stars, but whatever floats your boat.
When I was writing this rule, I was thinking of changing Simsense flicks (porn, adventure, etc.) into BTL.
Vegas
Mar 31 2008, 01:13 AM
QUOTE (lkim @ Mar 30 2008, 06:18 PM)
When I was writing this rule, I was thinking of changing Simsense flicks (porn, adventure, etc.) into BTL.
No offense, but then why didn't you SAY that from the beginning instead of making it seem you wanted to make BTL's from scratch? Because we all could have possibly saved ourselves a lot of effort, frustration, and pissing matches.
lkim
Mar 31 2008, 01:29 AM
Before I continue to write down the rule of BTL, we have to set somethings clear in order to continue.
Very first step is to set whether or not BTL should give any bonus to the user?
I am against it for Dreamchip and Tripchip BTLs, but for Moodchip and P-fixs, I'm agreeing with WR1 and Eyes. Reasons behind are: Dreamchips are, as BBB mentioned it, just like simsense flicks, such as sim porn. It makes the user's mind to sense as if they are the main character or any other characters in the movie. Tripchips makes user to sense in a way that they never could. Examples I gave was to, smell the roses everywhere, everything taste like raw egg, see things in only one or two colors. Even if their RAS override has been disabled, it shouldn't give any positive bonuses to the user while/or after using the BTL of these kind. Moodchips and P-fix are bit different. Moodchips may triggers the user's biological functions, such as adrenalines function, to boost person's ability a bit. P-fix are BTL with skillsoft technology. Thus, IMO, it is possible to give user limited active and knowledge skills while under the influence.
Anyone with or against with this?
lkim
Mar 31 2008, 01:35 AM
QUOTE (Vegas @ Mar 30 2008, 06:13 PM)
No offense, but then why didn't you SAY that from the beginning instead of making it seem you wanted to make BTL's from scratch? Because we all could have possibly saved ourselves a lot of effort, frustration, and pissing matches.
Oops, if, when I was beginning, it sounded like I was making brand new stuff, sorry (although, I did mention of making brand new BTLs at the very beginning of this).
Right now, at least I think, I'm more thinking of what are the effects of BTLs.
Whipstitch
Mar 31 2008, 02:09 AM
I'm basically against giving out bonuses, since I think they're unnecessary and it goes against the KISS principle.
Were it up to me, I'd make Dreamchips work like Hotsim BTL/VR; the RAS is on and you're stuck with an -6 perception penalty to even try to check out what's going in outside of your li'l chiphead fantasy land plus you risk facing dumpshock if you turn the chip off before the track is finished and your GM is feeling particularly cranky. I figure if used properly dreamchips should have minimal side effects after their use, since they're not strongly addictive but make responding to an emergency situation really difficult while you're under their influence. I imagine they're popular simply because they're a fairly safe and no frills high when properly used.
As for moodchips and dreamchips, they need to be treated a pinch differently since it says RAS is disabled and you can theoretically move around and function while they're on. In the case of Moodchips, I'd force people to undergo the Disorientation and the equivalent of an unresisted Power 1 Nausea penalty (it says under nausea that it's a catch all term that includes things like panic and double vision too) for 1-2 hours when coming down off a moodchip (the book says you feel the oppositive emotion after it's over, after all), but this is balanced out somewhat by the fact that you can function in the middle of the high plus that low of a Power Nausea doesn't really do anything unless your character is wounded, in which case you suffer double wound modifiers (a fairly appropriate penalty, I'd think; write it off as your character not really being in position to handle any extra stress post moodchip).
With tripchips, I'd make them unpredictable; you could either end up with a disorientation penalty DURING the high, a disorientation penalty AFTER the high or else a simply pure experience bereft of obvious drawbacks. Either way, you should spend less time suffering negative affects than with moodchips. After all, tripchips have a higher addiction threshold, so they have risks of their own aside from their immediate effects.
lkim
Mar 31 2008, 09:18 PM
Here's another shot at BTL rules. I gave two types of the BTL, Dreamchips and Tripchips, without any positive advantages, and the other two, Moodchips and Personafixes, with positive advantages.
[ Spoiler ]
What is BTL?As mentioned in the BBB P. 250, it is "simsense programs produce high-amplitude simsense outputs that directly stimulate the response centers in the limbic area, or “pleasure center,� of the brain" and "technological drug-of-choice."
Why is BTL so addictive than other drugs?Because the "sensation is significantly more intense," due to the lack of peak controls and direct stimulation of the brain of the user, BTL is highly addictive than many other street drugs of '70s.
[ Spoiler ]
Addiction ThresholdAll BTL addiction is both mental and physical, except Dreamchip, which are only mental.
Dreamchip 1 + (Rating/2) (round up) + (O.D. Modifier)
Moodchips & Personafixes 2 + (Rating/2) (round up) + (O.D. Modifier)
Tripchips 3 + (Rating/2) (round up) + (O.D. Modifier)
O.D. Modifier
[ Spoiler ]
BTL can be O.D.ed just like anyother street drugs. If the Rating of the BTL is greater than PC's will attributes, it is considered to be O.D.
O.D. Modifier = (Rating of BTL X Number of times BTL was continuously played) - Will of user (Min. 0).
Also, if a user puts him/herself in a continuous play mode of low rating BTL, the rating of BTL stacks. So, for example, if a person, who has Will of 3, is continuously playing rate 1 Moodchip, after 3rd play, it will starts to add up to the O.D. Modifier.
What are the types of BTL?There are
two formats of BTL: chips and downloads. Chips "contain all the necessary electronics, so a user merely needs to slot the chip directly into an old-fashioned chipjack or datajack." Downloads are almost same exact as chips, without the physical chip being involved.
The
four types of BTLs are;
Dreamchips, Moodchips, Personafixes, and Tripchips*Note: I just copy and paste the description on the book for the description.
[ Spoiler ]
DreamchipEffects: Even if the RAS override feature is disabled, it is very hard for the user running the program to react to anything in the "meat" world. All the dice pool gets -6, due to the BTL signals overlaying the senses. In additon, once the program is running, it is very hard to stop (LOG + WIL Vs. Rating X 2). If the program is stoped before the duration of BTL, the user suffers from the dumpshock (BBB 231)
Side Effects: After BTL run its courses, user suffers from the
disorientation (BBB 245)
Description: "Dreamchips are standard simsense recordings modified to produce BTL output. This can be a standard studio-produced simsense storyline turned into a BTL fantasy, or a more personal street recording that offers an intense glimpse into someone’s life. Popular themes are heroic fantasies, recorded crimes, and pornography, with hardcore violence and snuff chips for the most jaded appetites." (BBB 250)
Availability: Rating (for rating up to 3), Rating+1 (for rating 4-6)(Dreamchips are quite common in the street.)
Price: (Rating + 1) X 50
(for rating up to 3), (Rating + 3) X 60
(for rating 4-6) (Currently, in my city, movie tickets are about 10 bucks and DVDs are aound 30. In the BBB 304, simflicks are about 15
, 3 times that is 45, round up to be 50. And since more work has to be done to the dream chips, (+1) in the pricing)
MoodchipEffects: Effects of moodchips are vary from chip to chip, depending on the theme of the chip.
[ Spoiler ]
Here are some examples:
Red Meanie
Effects: +(Rating/2 (round down, Min. 1)) to Agility, Reaction, Strength, and Will, as well as rating 3 of pain resistance, negate Low Pain Tolerance and Combat Paralysis negative qualities, if they have either or both of those, while the BTL is running its program.
Side Effects: While the program is running, it is unable to rest for the user (cannot heal by resting). After program crashes, so does the user. Agility, Reaction, Strength, and Will are reduced to 1, have Low Pain Tolerance and Combat Paralysis negative qualities (if they already possess either or both qualities, have them double the penalty). for the duration equal to Rate hours.
Description: As the name suggest, it makes the user very aggresive and combative. User will fight, if given a chance, or try to start the fight while under the influence. Retreating from the fight is almost never option, but if have to it need Wil + Cha (3) test.
Cool White
Effects: +(Rating/2 (round down, Min. 1)) dice pool modifier to any Technical skills performed by user, as well as increase the LOG by (Rating/2 (round down, Min. 1)), while the BTL is running.
Side Effects: -(2 X (Rating/2 (round up))) dice pool modifier to all the technical skills performed by user and reduce his/her LOG to 1, after program crashed for the duration equal to Rate hours.
Description: It makes user "feel" more confident in him/herself, and "cool headed." Person under the influence of Cool White act arrogantly, looking down at people, and become stubborn when he set his mind.
Yellow Sunshine
Effects: +(Rating/2 (round down, Min. 1)) dice pool modifier to any Social skills performed by user, as well as increase the CHA by (Rating/2 (round down, Min. 1)), while the BTL is running.
Side Effects: -(2 X (Rating/2 (round up))) dice pool modifier to all the Social skills performed by user and reduce his/her CHA to 1, after program crashed for the duration equal to Rate hours.
Description: Person under the influence of this BTL, feels very good, no worries will bother him/her, and act very charmingly to anyone.
Side Effects: Varies from chip to chip, depending on the theme of the chip.
Description: "These BTLs focus on the emotive track, inducing an extended episode of emotional sensations. Themes can range from euphoria to sexual urges to aggressive tendencies, and to dark feelings such as terror and hate. Street names tend to reflect the nature of the experience, modified by a color: Blue Passion, Red Meanie, Cool White, and so on. After the chip’s program has run its course, the user crashes, usually feeling the opposite emotion of the BTL for an hour or two. Users of Sunshine chips, for example, will be despondent and depressed when they crash. Moodchips are the most common BTLs on the street. The RAS override feature is frequently disabled so that users can move around freely under the influence of the chip." (BBB 250)
Availability: Rating -1 (for rating up to 3), Rating+3 (for rating 4-6)(Moodchips are very common in the streets)
Price: Rating X 60 (for rating up to 3), (Rating+4) X 100 (for rating 4-6)
PersonafixEffects: Varies depend on what personality is programed into the BTL. But it gives number of Active skills = Rating/2 (round down, Min. 1) at skill rating equal to (Rating-3, Min. 1) and number of Knowledge skills = Rating at skill rating equal to (Rating-2, Min. 1), that are appropriate to the occupation of the personality writen on the program.
Side Effects: User of P-fixes cannot use any of his/her "natural" (learned) Active or Knowledge skills for the duration of program is running. They also suffers from amnesia for the (Rating) hours after program has run its course.
Description: "Personafixes, also called p-fixes, are the strangest and most dangerous BTLs. A combination of simsense and skillsoft technology modifies the basic personality responses of the user, installing the mnemonic routines of certain behavior patterns. While under the chip’s influence, the user becomes a different person. Popular chips are based off of historical figures or pop culture icons, though there is also a small market for animals. “Workers� in bunraku (“puppet�) sex parlors are fitted with personafix BTLs, sometimes combined with data filter cyberware to protect a client’s anonymity. The RAS override feature is frequently disabled so that users can move around freely under the influence of the chip." (BBB 250)
Availability: (Rating+4) (for rating up to 3), (Rating X 4) (for rating 4-6) (It is bit hard to get any good quaility P-fixes in the street)
Price: (Rating+4) X 200 (for rating up to 3), (Rating + 6) X 400 (for rating 4-6)
TripchipEffects: Let user flooded with interesting visual (seeing everything in double, only seeing in one or two color), auditory (hearing user's own heart beat, or rushing of blood around body), tactile (feels every touch to be ecstasy), taste (everything you eat taste like chocolates or raw egg), and olfactory (smell of roses all around you where ever you go) sensations.
Side Effects: It is hard for the user of tripchip to perceive anything through senses under the effect (-4 dicepool modifier). After the BTL run its course, the effected sense will become unusable for the duration equal to (10-BOD) Min. (Min. 1 Min.)
Description: "Like moodchips, tripchip BTLs primarily produce sensory output, flooding the user with interesting visual, auditory, tactile, taste, and olfactory sensations. These can be simple effects, or they can be advanced sensations such as simulating being underwater. The latest craze is deliberately induced synaesthesia with jacked up sensory levels and the RAS override disabled, allowing users to experience their surroundings in an entirely new way." (BBB 251)
Availability: Rating+1 (for rating up to 3), Rating+3 (for rating 4-6) (It is not so common in the street, but know the right person...)
Price: (Rating+2) X 100 (for rating up to 3), (Rating+4) X 150 (for rating 4-6)
How long each BTL last?Each BTL has different time track and usually higher the
rating of BTL, it will last longer, with more serious consquences.
[ Spoiler ]
Game Terms
Dreamchip Rating X 30 Min.
Moodchips Rating X 6 hours
Personafixes Rating X 1 day
Tripchips Rating X 10 hours
*Note: I gave longer time periodes for each BTL. Reason for doing this was to show how popular it could be compare to the street drugs, which most only lasts hour or so.
What are some side effects of long term use of BTL?As mentioned in the CC P. 65 and BBB P. 250, some examples of side effect of long term usage of BTL includes, but not limited to, "memory loss, psychotic eqisodes, bipolar disorder, multiple personality disorders, catatonia, mania, amnesia, flashback, synaesthesia, or even death." Addicts of BTL "may also develop a syndrome in which they cycle through multiple effects."
[ Spoiler ]
Flashback are most common side effects of long term users of dreamchip BTL. When addicts of dreamchip BTL have flashback, it is usually something that happened in the dreamchips program, although addicts think as if it was his own experience.
Catatonia and synaesthesia are most common side effects of long term users of tripchip BTL. This is due to the extream electrical current effecting the sensory nerve system to "sense" the false reality, most of the long term users of tripchip becomes catatonia schizo or have synaesthesia where senses crossover with other senses.
Bipolar disorder and depression are most common side effects of long term users of moodchip BTL. Long term user of moodchip lacks the ability to "feel" a certain emotion, have very rapid changes in two different opposite emotion, or just simply get depressed. Although it can be treated to reduce the effects of these mental disorder, it is never cured.
Amnesia and multiple personality disorders are very common side effects of long term users of personafix BTL. Users of p-fix becomes someone entirely different person. Addicts of p-fixes most likely develop multiple personality disorders, whether if the user knows or not, and most cases, user lose his/her self-identity after long term use of p-fix.
Dantic
Apr 1 2008, 04:04 AM
I still don't like p-fixes giving active skills, due to the overlap with skill wires, I realize the rating here is very low in most cases (Rating -3 min 1 skill rating) and time limited, but fundamentaly, skill wires are required for the "muscle memory" portion of active skills, which p-fixes simply can't grant.
My 2
lkim
Apr 1 2008, 04:56 AM
@Dantic
Thank you for your 2
Eyeless Blond
Apr 1 2008, 11:52 AM
Not bad to start Ikim. A few comments:
-I still contend that, at the bare minimum, Moodchips, P-fixes and Tripchips ought to have positives, or at least the ones PCs buy ought to have them. Especially Tripchips, as they are by far the most addictive.
-OTOH, the Moodchip benefits may be a bit too much. Adding to attributes is a pretty big deal; adding to three is absolutely huge. Maybe just add 1, and rely on the duration to account for the difference in Rating.
-P-fixes need more drawbacks. Maybe the user loses all access to "natural" (learned) Active and Knowledge skills for the duration of the chip?
-All chips should have a max rating of 4 IMO. I could see a case for 6, but 4 is the max for autosofts and Activesofts, and that seems fair to me.
-P-fixes should have a higher Availability; they should be tough to make and tough to find decent ones. Maybe (Rating*4)R?
I actually think it's fine for P-fixes to grant active skills, but only because they're jacked up to such a dangerous level compared to your standard knowsoft it's like your brain is being overwritten with what you need to know. The reason standard Activesofts need 'wires is so they don't have to do that to your brain; it's a safety feature.
lkim
Apr 1 2008, 06:18 PM
Added:
-O.D. Modifier for continuous play of BTL
-"User loses all access to "natural" (learned) Active and Knowledge skills for the duration" is added to the P-fix side effect.
Modified:
-Price and availability has changed bit. Now it's divided into low ratings (1-3) and high ratings (4-6).
-Changed the duration of Moodchip crash.
@Eyeless Blond
-What kind of positive effect do you have in mind for Tripchip?
-It may add three to attributes, but look at the down side. It's really highly addictive (usually 8-9), reduce half of the stat to 1, gives two negative quality or doubles the effect for the Rating hours.
-Added drawback to P-fixes
-I had it rating 6, since most things in the book have rating up to 6. This could be change to 4, but with the O.D. modifier, I think it's best to leave it along to show how addictive it is.
-With the changed price and availability for different rating, I think it's fixed.
lkim
Apr 1 2008, 06:26 PM
QUOTE (Dantic @ Mar 31 2008, 08:04 PM)
I still don't like p-fixes giving active skills, due to the overlap with skill wires, I realize the rating here is very low in most cases (Rating -3 min 1 skill rating) and time limited, but fundamentaly, skill wires are required for the "muscle memory" portion of active skills, which p-fixes simply can't grant.
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Apr 1 2008, 03:52 AM)
I actually think it's fine for P-fixes to grant active skills, but only because they're jacked up to such a dangerous level compared to your standard knowsoft it's like your brain is being overwritten with what you need to know. The reason standard Activesofts need 'wires is so they don't have to do that to your brain; it's a safety feature.
I kinda agree with Eye here. I mean, if you are copying someone's behavior and stuff, why not skills?
Whipstitch
Apr 1 2008, 07:03 PM
Honestly, the metagame benefit could easily be that you got addiction bps for a drug that doesn't smack you with a bunch of stun damage when you crash but is still inconvenient enough (drugs cost nuyen, risk of burnout, etc.) that you're not sleazing your way into free bps. The RP benefit (pleasure) is already there. It's just hitting the right balancing act that's tricky.
Eyeless Blond
Apr 1 2008, 07:43 PM
Hm, threshold 8-9 for addiction tests? Yikes. it's body+willpower to resist, right? Who's going to have 24-27 dice to resist addiction?
That really ought to go back to what's in the book, or maybe raise the threshold to 2/3/4 for dreamchips/mood-Pfix/Trip. People will still fail that test often enough for our purposes, IMO.
Crashing is, IMO, not the best way to balance a drug effect, unless the crash is permanent like K-10. My advice it to compare it to other drugs in the main book, especially ones with the same Addiction Threshold, and balance it on those terms. Dreamchips should offer minimal, if any, benefits; moodchips should offer minor benefits, maybe boost a couple of attributes by 1 or 2, p-fixes are electronic possession, and tripchips are where the big interesting effects come from.
As for Trips, I'm not sure. They might have to be somewhat unique effects, each with a unique name, much like your Moodchips, but with even more outlandish effects. Maybe the Synesthesia-type chip that adds its rating to one Perception specialization, while eliminating another (example: a Touchsight chip overlays your vision over your tactile senses, so you add Rating to visual perception but lose touch sensations. Maybe a Tripchip that can imitate the effect of a piece of Bioware while active, or one that gives you Low Light vision for a time, with the cost that you go basically blind for a few hours afterward? This is where the real unique chips should come from, as they're the most addictive ones on the market, and thus should stand to be the most interesting.
The point is to balance the mechanical disadvantage of Addiction penalties with the mechanical advantage of usable drugs. More addictive drugs should be more powerful and useful.
Spike
Apr 1 2008, 07:53 PM
Crashing, and other penalties are IMHO a great way to balance the 'buffs' of drugs. It just relies on the GM making sure to time your crash periods right....
in a game like this (eight months to cover 2 days?!) its perfect... the 'crash effect' can cover several weeks of play....
Eyeless Blond
Apr 1 2008, 08:03 PM
heheh, okay that's a good point.
Nevada I think is really feeling that Long Haul now...
In normal games this is a bad idea, because you can just find somewhere to crash when you're, er, "crashing", but in this case it's much more of a problem.
lkim
Apr 1 2008, 08:45 PM
No one's going to resist it. I know, and that's kinda my idea.
Say, regular human street gang have body 3 and will 2, and using rate 1 Red Meanie.
For six hours he'll be more agile, quick, strong, determine and feels less pain (+1 bonus and pain resistance, plus negate the effect of combat paralysis and low pain tolerance).
But during those time, he can't be healed with rest, and after 6 hours, he'll be weak as sick puppy for next hour (all stats that got the bonus will reduce to 1 and grants combat paralysis and low pain tolerance or doubles the effect). And it is more addictive than regular drugs. (addiction rating at 3, and his will is now at 1)
If, this guy is a troll and almost maxed out his body to 9 and will to 5 got his hand on the rate 6 Red Meanie.
For 36 hours (a day and a half!) he'll be more agile, quick, strong, determine and feels less pain (+3 bonus and pain resistance, plus negate the effect of combat paralysis and low pain tolerance).
He can't heal by rest during those time, and when the programs finishes he'll turn into weak and coward street rat for next 6 hours. And what's the addiction rating? 2+(6/2)+(5) = 10 with 10 dice to roll. He's not going to resist the drug, but more addicted and may be if he uses couple of times more, he'll be burned out soon.
I think that's enough of negatives for any drugs. Being burned out, loss of essence or stat or whatever permanent effect that will effect him through out.
Vegas
Apr 1 2008, 09:06 PM
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Apr 1 2008, 03:03 PM)
heheh, okay that's a good point.
Nevada I think is really feeling that Long Haul now...
In normal games this is a bad idea, because you can just find somewhere to crash when you're, er, "crashing", but in this case it's much more of a problem.
If by feeling you mean not hearing or caring about anything going on around her at the moment, sure
Believe me the "crash" of a drug/BTL is a good reason not to take them as addictions, especially in this game were as it's been pointed out, it can take a REALLY long time to get through a few hours or days of IC gameplay
But hey, I could have handwaved the whole Long Haul bit or started it on 10/31, but I started out with it in game BEFORE Red October and the game began. I figured it was good RP fodder, since if someone/something wiped out the majority of my gang in one shot, I wouldn't want to really sleep any time soon myself
You can find places to crash in this game, it just doesn't necessarily guarantee you won't be messed with while crashed out ...
If nothing else it gives players a LOT of RP angles and hooks to play out which don't necessarily need GM supervision/hand-holding which is a huge plus for this game being as character-driven as it is.
Dantic
Apr 2 2008, 02:38 AM
QUOTE (lkim @ Apr 1 2008, 02:26 PM)
I kinda agree with Eye here. I mean, if you are copying someone's behavior and stuff, why not skills?
Like I stated before, I don't have a problem with you "thinking" you can do all the stuff in the p-fix. If you read the history on skillwires, and read the SR4 description of skillsofts, there is a "muscle memory" aspect to skillsofts. P-fixes aren't meant to be a way to have you chip in and become rambo. The main purpous to p-fixes isn't usually to the advantage of the person chipping it, but to whoever is footing the bill, to get the persona "fixed" to their liking. That being said, because p-fixes do incorperate some skillsoft technology, I'd say someone p-fixing with skillwires could game some bonus, still not as great as a dedicated skillsoft, which is one program for one specific skill, not like a p-fix, where you are emulating an entire persona. I think that you are doing a severe disservice to game balance, if you revamp p-fix BTLs, to the point where you are gaining more benifits than someone who has spent the time and resources to get a suit of skillsofts/knowsofts, and the appropriate cyber. For example a dedicated active skill at rating 1 cost 5000
, a dedicated knowsoft at rating 1 cost 1000
and the skillwires to run at rating 1 cost 2000
, so according to you a chiphead can jack a p-fix and get a suite of knowsofts and skillsofts in one shot, with some drawbacks, but at a reduced cost, especially if the chip is not set to burn out after one use.
WinterRat1
Apr 2 2008, 04:02 AM
Quick reply here to a PM lkim sent me:
I appreciate all the work everyone is doing on this, I think having BTLs with actual game effects of some type will add a lot to the game, even if it's just specifying say, disorientation following usage as some have suggested.
Anyway, a few notes:
1. I do not want to see anything from anyone until it has been cleared by Eyeless Blond. He is my 'man on the ground' so to speak, and until he approves it, I'm not even going to look at whatever you send me for comments/review/approval.
I don't have time to be a part of this process, that's why I am having you guys figure out how it's going to work and put Eyeless in charge of generally monitoring and leading the discussion. He and I have a pretty good working history and know one another, so he has a good idea of what I'm looking for and why. I want this to be a collaborative process as much as possible, but I realize sometimes someone has to make decisions, so Eyeless is the guy who determines what ultimately goes into whatever draft I'm eventually going to see.
After you send me the draft, I'll review it, comment where necessary, and send it back if I think anything needs to be changed/evaluated in more detail. We will repeat the process until we have a rule set we're comfortable with.
2. When you have a completed draft ready for me to review, please do not send it to me with spoilers within spoilers within spoilers. Email it to me in a word document or a PM that is organized and easily printable so I can actually review it and not have to navigate it.
Thanks for the hard work everyone, I'm looking forward to seeing what you all come up with!
lkim
Apr 2 2008, 07:34 AM
QUOTE (Dantic @ Apr 1 2008, 06:38 PM)
For example a dedicated active skill at rating 1 cost 5000
, a dedicated knowsoft at rating 1 cost 1000
and the skillwires to run at rating 1 cost 2000
, so according to you a chiphead can jack a p-fix and get a suite of knowsofts and skillsofts in one shot, with some drawbacks, but at a reduced cost, especially if the chip is not set to burn out after one use.
Yes, it is true that P-fix at rating 1 is only 1000
, where if you want to get the same effect with skillwire you'll need to pay at least 8000
and essence of 0.3. But, under the influence of the P-fix, user
cannot use his/her natural, learned skill, where with the skillwire, they still could. Skillwire users also doesn't suffers from the amnesia or "forget" how to use their own skills for sometimes. And most of all, if P-fix users continuously use the same programs over and over, they will starts to get more serious and permanent negative effects. Loss of essence or stats, developing multiple personality, or something other.
Now, benefit of using P-fix in street level. If someone, say my character, uses P-fix with persona of drug cooker to keep producing drugs while the main cooking guy is out (death, injury, etc.). Until we get some decent cooker for the gang, anyone could be working as drug cooker with P-fix. I cannot, however, make BTL, fight, or know gang ID, turf, or any other knowledge I might have, during this time, because, well I'm working at the chem lab, but also I don't know how under the influence.
With skillwires and programs, it can also be done. But, it's too expensive and hard to get in the street. P-fix can solve these kind of problems easy, in expense of person's life.
Eyeless Blond
Apr 2 2008, 08:09 AM
Heh, okay, so if I'm going to have veto power; then I guess I have to be less of an advocate for my own ideas, and more of a moderator.
In that vein, I feel I need to summarize what we've done so far, and to guide the discussion a little. Spike and Whipstitch's concerns that BTL addiction already have positives, in that they don't have as bad a "crash" as actual drugs, and that they are mentally addictive rather than physically addictive (and so are resisted by Wil+Logic, instead of Wil+Body) are duly noted, and are why I've dropped the idea of giving dreamchips further positives. Seeing that other chips are more addictive than dreamchips, it stands to reason that they should have more things going for them. If there are still concerns in this vein, please speak up again, before we get too far ahead of ourselves.
We have some great proposals from Ikim, and there's good discussion on that front. One major sticking point I'm having is with the addiction thresholds. The thing is, we already have addiction thresholds spelled out to us in the book: dreamchips have threshold 1, p-fixes and moodchips have threshold 2, and tripchips have threshold 3. All things equal, I'd very much like to keep everything that the book has to say on the subject of BTLs, including these addiction thresholds. This still leaves everything that the book did not provide us: Duration, Effect (while on the high), Side Effect (things that happen afterwards, like the "crash" that follows most drugs), and Price and Availability, which are very poorly defined by the book.
Every time we can point to the book and show that it agrees with us, and that we are only expanding on things that are either undefined or poorly defined, makes me more comfortable with the ruleset, and I guarantee will make it more likely to be accepted by WinterRat. This isn't to say that we can't toss out the book in places; everyone here has things that they hate about the rules, and wish they could change. But there has to be a very, very good reason for the change, and so far I'm not seeing it here. Having super-high addiction thresholds hearkens back to the bad old days in SR3 when taking a single drag put you into a downward spiral that would have you dying of Essence Loss inside a month. It's fine IMO for some drugs to not get you hooked the very first time you try something: can anyone here who smokes, and who remembers their first cigarette, care to confirm or deny this one? Maybe if we were playing Shadowrun: D.A.R.E. Edition... but we're not.
lkim
Apr 2 2008, 08:56 AM
For the addiction threshold, I only added because of rating system. If it doesn't have any rating system, I'm fine with that. Also, for the O.D., BBB states drugs can OD by every (body) dose and inflicts extra box of damage, I just changed them to be on the addiction threshold, since I wasn't going to make BTL do the damage to the user.
Spike
Apr 2 2008, 03:11 PM
I don't smoke, though I have, and grew up with smokers and I can tell you MOST of the smoking tales I've heard involve getting past those first few cigs until the addiction hit...
Maybe not so crudely put, but almost every 'first cig' story I heard does not come off as a pleasant 'repeatable' expirence, and lacking peer pressure, one that is unlikely to be repeated. I'm guessing that there is a reason you can't buy 'singles' anywhere... too many chances to get new smokers hooked when they buy just one and never buy another... with the pack they've got 24 chances to get hooked and we hate throwing stuff away that is useable...
Not that its important to BTLs but you did ask...
lkim
Apr 2 2008, 07:58 PM
Before I go back to class, I would just like to add this. It's more of concept so I'll be editing this.
BTL Tolerance
Just like any other drugs on the street, BTL users can also develop tolerance over it. Every time user of BTL fails on the addiction test or OD on BTL, make a test of Will+Log (rating). If target number is beat, he gains tolerance (yes, this test you want to fail). Once you have tolerance for that rating and down to (rating-2) min. 1, users are only effected with half of the bonus for half of duration with the same side effects. BTL rating-3 or below has no effect on user anymore.
Ex. Will 3, Log 4 character (mine) OD on rate 1 mood chip. He'll do the tolerance test, and with beat the target threshold. He gain tolerance (BTL, Mood 1). From now on every time he use the Mood rating 1, he'll only get half of effect and duration. Same character OD on rate 4 p-fix. He does the tolerance test, and somehow he beat the number again. He now has tolerance (BTL, P-fix 4). From now on P-fix rating 2, 3, and 4 only gets half of the effect and duration and P-fix rate 1 doesn't have any effect on him.
It's just a rough sketch but what do you think?
Eyeless Blond
Apr 2 2008, 09:44 PM
How is this different from the book rules, other than Wil+Log instead of Wil+Bod? Don't have my book on me.
lkim
Apr 2 2008, 09:57 PM
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Apr 2 2008, 02:44 PM)
How is this different from the book rules, other than Wil+Log instead of Wil+Bod? Don't have my book on me.
I'm assuming you are talking about the BTL tolerance? I don't think there was rule for that. In the book it only said, "Moderate addiction have developed tolerances and stronger cravings, so they may use more frequently, take stronger dosages, or move on to a harder substance." (BBB 248)
Eyeless Blond
Apr 3 2008, 12:50 AM
That's 'cause it's in Arsenal, p. 73:
"They say you can never get high like the first time. That may
not be strictly true for some of the weirder designer drugs available
in the 2070s, but as a general maxim it remains correct. Over time,
characters who use a drug steadily will need to consume more of
the drug at once to achieve the desired effect. Tolerance is tied to
the character’s history with drugs, represented by the Addiction
quality (see Addiction, p. 80, SR4). Every time a character’s
Addiction increases, the character must consume twice as much
of the drug to obtain the same effects. Characters with a tolerance
only suffer overdoses when taking more of a drug than they need
to achieve the effects of a single dose."
Pretty simple: every time your addiction level increases (and, if you add in the other rule in BBB p. 248, if you roll a critical glitch on the addiction test), you need to take twice as much to get the same effect. In this case, since BTLs are measured in Ratings rather than doses, it means that the rating would be decreased by 1 per level of addiction, plus the number of times the character rolled a critical glitch on his/her Addiction test.
Dantic
Apr 3 2008, 01:49 AM
I would like to request that Eyeless hold off on submiting anything on BTLs till after this weekend (April 5,6) there are few things I'd like to weigh in with, probably even submit some specific alternatives, but I need a little time to work on it. I'm not trying to be combatitive on any particular points, I just dissagree with some of the viewpoints that have been, seemingly, at the front in regards to BTL benifits (not just p-fixes, but that has been my focus), realizing that BTLs are going to be given some "mechanical" advandages/disadvantages, I don't want to just argue and put down ideas advanced by my fellow players here, so I'd like a chance to put together some alternative takes on the subject and give everyone a chance to get a different look to think about (more than one way to skin a cat). Thanks
Eyeless Blond
Apr 3 2008, 07:12 AM
Oh don't worry, we have plenty of time until anything is finalized. At the very least we'll have to wait until after Apr 15th, which is tax day and the end of WR's crunch time; I'm dead certain he won't be looking at anything until after then anyway. So weeks at the very least, and likely more, depending on the amount of debate here.
lkim
Apr 6 2008, 07:05 PM
Hey, sorry I've been missing couple of days. I was busy with school and work.
@Eye
Oh~ they have in the Arsenal. I don't have that book, so...
Eyeless Blond
Apr 7 2008, 06:20 PM
Ah, yes, I see the problem there. Well, that's pretty much the only rule in Arsenal that could pertain to BTLs, so I think everything else is going to be original.
Anyone who currently has the book care to back me up?
lkim
Apr 7 2008, 08:05 PM
@Eye
For the production of BTL, I was thinking of copying the original BTL, since we (everyone in the game) doesn't have the resources to actually make it.
So, here's skeletal structure of the process I think it would be suitable.
*I was thinking of chip version of BTL
1. Bypass the temper proof. This would be done by Hardware + Logic (6+Rating or Rating X 2, 1hour) and need tool kit(microtronics), may be.
2. Decrypt the codes. Electronic Warfare + Decrypt (Rating X 2, 1 combat turn). (BBB P. 225)
3. Edit the program. To change the chip's copy protection code, may be? Hacking + Edit or Computer + Edit (Rating X 2, 1 hour).
4. Copy the BTL into chip. This would require tool kit (BTL copier or chip copier) or above. Max number of chips that can be copied are (Rate X 5) at Rating one lower than the original and original burns out. I'm not sure what kind of skill or attribute or programs will be needed, but target number should be the number of copies you are trying to make. If I'm making copies from the rate 4 BTL, I would have target number of 20, and every hit is successful copies.
5. Edit the programs to have copy protection code. This can actually done after step 3 before step 4, or just reactivating copy protection from the original (since the codes are already there, I just de-activated to make copies).
6. Encrypt the BTLs. Electronic Warfare + Encrypt (Rate of copy X 2, 1 hour) would be the standards, but trying to encrypt 20 rate 3 BTL chips are just too much work, even if it's just dice roll. Any good ideas?
7. Place temper proof. Again this would be Hardware + Logic (New Rate X 2, 1 hour), but just too much work. Any good ideas to shorten it?
8. Start selling.
Step 1-4, 8 is must. 5-7 is optional.
At step 1, 2 and 3, if glitched, chips will burn out.
At step 4, if glitched copying process stops and the number of copies made so far counts. If critical glitch, the whole chips are useless.
At step 5, 6 and 7, any glitch will cause the chips to burn out.
What do you think?
Also, there are some programing options for BTL in CC 66-68, and one option, Degrading, seems very good option to have in the game, since the price are 75% of the regular chips and every use the rating goes down by 1, or One Shot option where price are only 50% of regular chips. Of course one time use are standard in all chips, but we can say that's hardware function, but this One Shot option is in the program of BTL, thus harder for user to manipulate.
Eyeless Blond
Apr 8 2008, 10:15 PM
Again, let's try to stick to the book as much as possible. Copying a BTL shouldn't be much more trouble than copying any other program, and that's described under source code and privacy in the SR4 book, Matrix chapter. If someone else has the book available and can quote what rules are available, then go for it, or I'll do it when I get back home.
Basically the process should be two steps:
1) Cracking the BTL's copy protection (note there wouldn't be encryption; encryption is to keep anyone from viewing the file/executing the program; such a thing wouldn't apply for a BTL, whose purpose is meant to be played).
1a) Note that doing this to a one-shot BTL involves reading the BTL, and thus would likely destroy it. Better hope you get it right the first time.
2) Copying the program to a new chip. This should be a test of its own, especially if you want to preserve the copy protection that deleted the one-shot BTLs after a single use (thus guaranteeing your profits), otherwise you'll have to keep getting new stuff to keep your chippers happy.
If you want to try to pass the chip off as "legit" you'll also need a Forgery test to decorate the chip to look like the original. That would be a possible step 3.
lkim
Apr 8 2008, 10:22 PM
QUOTE
"duplicate a program that is copy-protected, he needs to break the protection. This requires an Extended Software + Logic Test with a threshold between 10 and 20 (gamemaster’s discretion) and an interval of 1 hour." (BBB 228)
So, on step 3, it is Software + Logic (10~20, 1 hour) instead of Hacking + Edit or Computer + Edit (Rating X 2, 1 hour) as I was assuming.
Eyeless Blond
Apr 8 2008, 10:48 PM
Yes, but steps 1 and 2 don't exist (and by extension 6 and 7 either). The copy protection *is* the "tamper proof"; other than that it's just a universal memory chip. As for encryption, that wouldn't be present on a BTL, just as movies today aren't encrypted: you can't use a file that's encrypted if you don't also have the decryption key, and if you have that then why would you need to use decrypt?
That basically makes your proposal and mine the same, though mine adds a Forgery test as well.
Do we have anyone else who wants to comment on the copying BTLs (analogous to DitG drug cutting), or stats for existing BTLs?
lkim
Apr 8 2008, 11:00 PM
I see. Yeah that's more simple and I do see why step 1,2,6,7 won't be needed. But would it need forgery? I mean chips are chip, whether its BTL or not.
Dantic
Apr 8 2008, 11:10 PM
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Apr 7 2008, 02:21 PM)
As I'm not a GM I can't make any definitive rulings, but, given what's currently going on in the thread itself, I think it's fairly safe to say that we have plenty of time before BTL production itself is anything like a problem. At the most all we'll need to decide is which Active/Knowledge skills would be needed to produce BTLs (I'm assuming Software and Forgery at the minimum for Active skills, maybe Artisan for original work, along with appropriate Knowledges), and we can take our time with the rest. You're not going to be burning a BTL chip tonight, anyway.
I dissagree with Forgery, you're not trying to "fake" anything here, just hack it, or edit it.
Dantic
Apr 8 2008, 11:22 PM
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Apr 8 2008, 06:15 PM)
If you want to try to pass the chip off as "legit" you'll also need a Forgery test to decorate the chip to look like the original. That would be a possible step 3.
Following up, even if, for exaple there is a popular chip out there, known as "double sunshine" a mood chip with a sunburst hologram design on it. This holo is still not likely to be as intricate as money, IDs, etc. as far as design, even if it has some sort of imbedded micro printing in the holo layers to ID it as the "real deal", you're not trying to fool the makers out looking for counterfitters, just trying to make it pretty enough to fool the "chipheads" you're selling too. I think some simple artisanship (maybe Ink) or just someone with a high intuition, defaulting, could do well enough.
<EDIT> Still planning on posting a proposal myself, just a bit busy, will get to it, I promise.
lkim
Apr 12 2008, 06:48 PM
Hey people, I know I'm inactive character, but that was my choice and I'll still work on the BTL rules.
@Dantic
Take your time, it's not rushing matter.