 Knowledge based B/R, Kinda like the mopping thread |
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 Dec 6 2003, 06:47 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-October 03 Member No.: 5,702  |
Can you have a knowledge-based B/R? This is why I ask: I am making a mage who will begin SR life as a grade 1 initiate with centering. He will center with his electric bass. A wireless pocket-rocket that transmits to his headset comm device allows him to hear da phat beatz, yo. Doesn't matter that no one else does. In his personal head-space, the gods of Battle and Thunder are dancing just for him.
Musical instruments are knowledge based. Luthier (builder and repairer of stringed instruments) or Git-fiddle B/R would be an active skill. It just seems strange to me that one would need an active skill to fix their knowledge skill goodies. Thoughts? Ridicule? Thanx in advance for your input. |
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Dec 6 2003, 06:50 AM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
I always saw the B/R are knowing how to fix things.(duh)
But I use knowledge for other things. (Well, I want to string it just like Jimi Hendrix! Well, John Bonham played like this because... |
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Dec 6 2003, 06:58 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-October 03 Member No.: 5,702 |
Did you know that if you actually open a book you can answer your own questions? P. 72 of MiTS sez centering skill gotta be active. Oh well, looks like I shot my mouth... err, fingers off again.
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Dec 6 2003, 07:02 AM
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#4
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
That makes sense, otherwise I could consider my doing mental math a centering...
GM: Roll for Drain... Munchkin player: I mentally add 2+2 and then roll... |
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Dec 6 2003, 07:13 AM
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#5
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Uhm, no. Centering is an Active Skill. But you also have to have a creative skill that can be Active, Knowledge, or even Language (such as Enochian). Just like it says in the first sentence of the second paragraph under "Centering Skill" on the page you cited.
Artistic Skills are, by default, considered Knowledge Skills unless it's obvious that it would be covered by an existing Active Skill (I can't think of any examples off the top of my head -- maybe Cars (Stunt Driving) or something). As for your original question, Build/Repair skills are Active Skills regardless of what you're working on unless it specifically states otherwise (the only example of this that I know of is Chemistry). For an electric instrument, as a GM, I'd require the Electronics B/R Active Skill for anything requiring tweaking of the electronic aspects of the instrument and I'd create a Chemistry-type skill called Instrument Construction or whatever else you wanna call it. But Electronics B/R is definitely the one to use for the electronic portions. But as always, just ask your GM what he'd do. There is no canonical guide for this that I know of. EDIT: And yes, Mathematics can count as a Centering Skill, and it would be a very appropriate one for a Chaos Magician I'd wager. This post has been edited by Doctor Funkenstein: Dec 6 2003, 07:15 AM |
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Dec 6 2003, 07:14 AM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Performance is an example. |
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Dec 6 2003, 07:15 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 555 Joined: 11-August 03 Member No.: 5,408 |
I wonder if doing proofs on a blackboard would be an active skill, and if you could use that for centering?
I would use it with the Alter Memory spell so that my students might remember calc one long enough to pass an exam. Or better yet I could use it to resist drain on the influence spell to get them to do the right thing. Or lower target numbers, I wonder what the average willpower is for a college student? Sigh.. oh well... |
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Dec 6 2003, 07:15 AM
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#8
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Can you site a page reference?
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Dec 6 2003, 07:17 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Ummmm....
NCSRG? That's the only place I've seen it. But since the rest seems to be canon... |
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Dec 6 2003, 07:19 AM
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#10
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Well, the Adept archetype includes Sculpting as a Knowledge Skill. I think that's a bit more canonical than NSRCG.
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Dec 6 2003, 07:23 AM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
I bow to your point.
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Dec 6 2003, 11:30 AM
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#12
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Good man. Glad to see other people have contemplated doing just this. I love mathematical magic. |
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Dec 6 2003, 01:21 PM
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#13
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Mathematical magic -- aren't those hermetics?
Anyway, if you want a knowledge skill to accent performance skills, go with: Music theory (blues) or (rock) as specializations. I'd think Performance as a musical instrument or singing would be an active skill. Although a good rule of thumb might be: If your character does it as flavor (like sculpting as a hobby), just use the knowledge skill. If it's an important aspect of the character: the rocker makes his living by jamming on the guitar, it would have to be an Active skill. -Siege |
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Dec 6 2003, 02:30 PM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No it wouldn't. Chemistry is a Knowledge Skill that even professional Chemists use to "make a living." The Street Shaman archetype even has a physical-oriented Knowledge Skill called "Scrounging."
The intent is clear; skills like Musical Instrument are intended to be Knowledge Skills in 3rd Edition. Knowledge Skills (despite anything that might suggest otherwise) are there for "fluff" abilities and talents a character has, including engaging in weightlifting (Mercenary archetype), guzzling cheap synthahol (Ganger), painting a portrait, or playing a guitar. On rare occassions it's even even more than that, such as with Talismongering and Chemistry both of which are easily as "professional" and "active" as Computers. Centering already has the Centering active skill. The *only* thing the creative skill is used for is a limit on how high the Centering skill can go. |
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Dec 6 2003, 03:50 PM
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#15
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
As much as I hate to ask this of you, is that the canon ruling?
I was under the impression that to whip up the nifty chemical stuff, Chemistry had to be an Active skill. Of course, I'd have to thumb through the books I don't have with me currently to better clarify what I mean by "nifty chemical stuff." Wow, never mind -- I just re-read "Man and Machine". (page 108, "Making Controlled Susbstances") and you do actually use the Chemistry knowledge skill. Fabu! My GM is gonna hate that...:grinbig: -Siege |
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Dec 6 2003, 04:50 PM
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#16
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
mathematical magic is not necessarily the domain of hermetics, though hermetics do tend to favor it. shamans might be drawn towards things like non-euclidian geometry, chaos math, and the like. a prime example of this can be found way back in the UB set--the mathematician who came up with the theories which the UB stole (can't remember her name, too lazy to look it up).
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Dec 6 2003, 10:56 PM
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#17
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Ok so then is cooking an active skill or knowledge?
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Dec 6 2003, 11:01 PM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Knowledge.
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Dec 6 2003, 11:05 PM
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#19
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Not by necessity, no. Hermetic magic is the study of magic using scientic rigor, repeatable processes, and a generally logical or repeatable method for producing results. Shamans, on the other hand, base their art on emotion, the use of requests of the divine (asking the spirits/elements/kami whatnot for help) and a more emotive and instinctual style. Mathematics isn't really exclusive to either, though I imagine *more* hermetics use it than shamans. Mathematical magic isn't strictly linked to the 'Mathematics' skill, though it always *can* be. Example of how it could be used by multiple types of magicians: Hermetic: Daniel Atkinson, aka Adarael, wishes to channel some mana through his person to effect temporary nonviability upon a target - i.e. he wants to stunbolt someone. He centers using Hebrew, chanting out a long string of hebraic kabbalah (which is, at base, number theory applied through language) to calculate the ebb and flow of mana in his immediate surroundings. His mathematics (applied through language) changes the flow of magic, and he forces the stunbolt to slam into the offender. If he were using the mathematics skill for centering rather than having linked it to hebrew, he'd do essentially the same thing, but by quickly calculating out the mana flow changes required. Shaman: Sima Yuan, a chinese Spider shaman, wants to ensure that his target does not escape a cunningly laid trap - i.e. he wants to cast a glue spell. Quickly looking over the area, he centers using his Feng Shui skill, and tosses a handful of nails at the enemy (I.E. there needed to be more Metal Chi near the target, to balance the Air Chi that he evidenced in wanting to escape.). With the rebalanced magical geometry of the area, Yuan is able to better entreat Spider to assist him in stopping his enemy's escape - the 'phone lines' to Spider have less 'static'. If he'd used mathematics, he'd have calculated the geometry of how to trap his target in a magical 'web'. |
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Dec 10 2003, 02:44 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 917 Joined: 5-September 03 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Member No.: 5,585 |
For some reason, the thought of a mage using Car (Stunt-driving) as a centering skill is oddly appealing, and appalling, at the same time.
...Who else can picture a mage trying very hard to drive, and cast urban renewal at the same time while positioning the car so it can hit a ramp and balance on on 2 wheels? Anyone want to hazard a guess at the TN's? Oh! Another suggestion for the adepts, and the more beefy mages out there. Grab your weapon, or weapon focus. Hold it high above your head and shout to the world, "By the power of Greyskull!". Roll a Performance vs will skill test for the audience (and there's got to be somebody...) not to fall over laughing, and for the centering attempt to work. L. |
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Dec 10 2003, 04:39 PM
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#21
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Cooking is active, because it is the act of cooking stuff, such as mincing and slicing, flailing that pan around to do that neato food flip thing, grilling to perfection, etc. You do it with your body, and it includes learned reflexes. Recipies is a Knowledge skill, i.e. knowing what goes into a brownie is pure memory, knowledge. |
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Dec 10 2003, 04:54 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
<sighs> No, it's clearly a Knowledge Skill. Read over the thread.
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Dec 10 2003, 05:01 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I just call them cheap active skills and use the knowledge skill table to determine costs. The problem with calling everything knowledge is that they're all linked to intelligence that way, and there are lots of fluff skills which should be based on and default to other stats. Also, it helps the players understand how active and knowledge skills are implemented differently.
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Dec 10 2003, 05:57 PM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
As much as it galls me to agree with Doc Funky, check out M&M page 108 (if memory serves). The knowledge skill Chemistry is used in the manufacture of acids, drugs and whatnot. That sets the precedent of using "knowledge" skills in an active fashion to create items. Which is how I would have made the distinction prior. Until I actually looked at that paragraph closely, I would have agreed with you. -Siege |
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Dec 10 2003, 06:06 PM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Why does everyone always say that?
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