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Munchkinslayer
Can you have a knowledge-based B/R? This is why I ask: I am making a mage who will begin SR life as a grade 1 initiate with centering. He will center with his electric bass. A wireless pocket-rocket that transmits to his headset comm device allows him to hear da phat beatz, yo. Doesn't matter that no one else does. In his personal head-space, the gods of Battle and Thunder are dancing just for him.

Musical instruments are knowledge based.

Luthier (builder and repairer of stringed instruments) or Git-fiddle B/R would be an active skill.

It just seems strange to me that one would need an active skill to fix their knowledge skill goodies.

Thoughts? Ridicule? Thanx in advance for your input.
moosegod
I always saw the B/R are knowing how to fix things.(duh)

But I use knowledge for other things. (Well, I want to string it just like Jimi Hendrix! Well, John Bonham played like this because...
Munchkinslayer
Did you know that if you actually open a book you can answer your own questions? P. 72 of MiTS sez centering skill gotta be active. Oh well, looks like I shot my mouth... err, fingers off again.
Tanka
That makes sense, otherwise I could consider my doing mental math a centering...

GM: Roll for Drain...
Munchkin player: I mentally add 2+2 and then roll...
Ol' Scratch
Uhm, no. Centering is an Active Skill. But you also have to have a creative skill that can be Active, Knowledge, or even Language (such as Enochian). Just like it says in the first sentence of the second paragraph under "Centering Skill" on the page you cited.

Artistic Skills are, by default, considered Knowledge Skills unless it's obvious that it would be covered by an existing Active Skill (I can't think of any examples off the top of my head -- maybe Cars (Stunt Driving) or something).

As for your original question, Build/Repair skills are Active Skills regardless of what you're working on unless it specifically states otherwise (the only example of this that I know of is Chemistry). For an electric instrument, as a GM, I'd require the Electronics B/R Active Skill for anything requiring tweaking of the electronic aspects of the instrument and I'd create a Chemistry-type skill called Instrument Construction or whatever else you wanna call it. But Electronics B/R is definitely the one to use for the electronic portions.

But as always, just ask your GM what he'd do. There is no canonical guide for this that I know of.

EDIT: And yes, Mathematics can count as a Centering Skill, and it would be a very appropriate one for a Chaos Magician I'd wager.
moosegod
QUOTE
Artistic Skills are, by default, considered Knowledge Skills unless it's obvious that it would be covered by an existing Active Skill (I can't think of any examples off the top of my head).

Performance is an example.
phelious fogg
I wonder if doing proofs on a blackboard would be an active skill, and if you could use that for centering?

I would use it with the Alter Memory spell so that my students might remember calc one long enough to pass an exam.

Or better yet I could use it to resist drain on the influence spell to get them to do the right thing. Or lower target numbers, I wonder what the average willpower is for a college student?

Sigh.. oh well...
Ol' Scratch
Can you site a page reference?
moosegod
Ummmm....

NCSRG? That's the only place I've seen it.
But since the rest seems to be canon...

Ol' Scratch
Well, the Adept archetype includes Sculpting as a Knowledge Skill. I think that's a bit more canonical than NSRCG.
moosegod
I bow to your point.
Adarael
QUOTE
EDIT: And yes, Mathematics can count as a Centering Skill, and it would be a very appropriate one for a Chaos Magician I'd wager.


Good man. Glad to see other people have contemplated doing just this.

I love mathematical magic.
Siege
Mathematical magic -- aren't those hermetics?

Anyway, if you want a knowledge skill to accent performance skills, go with: Music theory (blues) or (rock) as specializations.

I'd think Performance as a musical instrument or singing would be an active skill.

Although a good rule of thumb might be: If your character does it as flavor (like sculpting as a hobby), just use the knowledge skill.

If it's an important aspect of the character: the rocker makes his living by jamming on the guitar, it would have to be an Active skill.

-Siege
Ol' Scratch
No it wouldn't. Chemistry is a Knowledge Skill that even professional Chemists use to "make a living." The Street Shaman archetype even has a physical-oriented Knowledge Skill called "Scrounging."

The intent is clear; skills like Musical Instrument are intended to be Knowledge Skills in 3rd Edition. Knowledge Skills (despite anything that might suggest otherwise) are there for "fluff" abilities and talents a character has, including engaging in weightlifting (Mercenary archetype), guzzling cheap synthahol (Ganger), painting a portrait, or playing a guitar. On rare occassions it's even even more than that, such as with Talismongering and Chemistry both of which are easily as "professional" and "active" as Computers.

Centering already has the Centering active skill. The *only* thing the creative skill is used for is a limit on how high the Centering skill can go.
Siege
As much as I hate to ask this of you, is that the canon ruling?

I was under the impression that to whip up the nifty chemical stuff, Chemistry had to be an Active skill.

Of course, I'd have to thumb through the books I don't have with me currently to better clarify what I mean by "nifty chemical stuff."

Wow, never mind -- I just re-read "Man and Machine". (page 108, "Making Controlled Susbstances") and you do actually use the Chemistry knowledge skill.

Fabu! My GM is gonna hate that...grinbig.gif

-Siege
mfb
mathematical magic is not necessarily the domain of hermetics, though hermetics do tend to favor it. shamans might be drawn towards things like non-euclidian geometry, chaos math, and the like. a prime example of this can be found way back in the UB set--the mathematician who came up with the theories which the UB stole (can't remember her name, too lazy to look it up).
Zolhex
Ok so then is cooking an active skill or knowledge?
Ol' Scratch
Knowledge.
Adarael
QUOTE
Mathematical magic -- aren't those hermetics?


Not by necessity, no. Hermetic magic is the study of magic using scientic rigor, repeatable processes, and a generally logical or repeatable method for producing results. Shamans, on the other hand, base their art on emotion, the use of requests of the divine (asking the spirits/elements/kami whatnot for help) and a more emotive and instinctual style.

Mathematics isn't really exclusive to either, though I imagine *more* hermetics use it than shamans. Mathematical magic isn't strictly linked to the 'Mathematics' skill, though it always *can* be. Example of how it could be used by multiple types of magicians:

Hermetic: Daniel Atkinson, aka Adarael, wishes to channel some mana through his person to effect temporary nonviability upon a target - i.e. he wants to stunbolt someone. He centers using Hebrew, chanting out a long string of hebraic kabbalah (which is, at base, number theory applied through language) to calculate the ebb and flow of mana in his immediate surroundings. His mathematics (applied through language) changes the flow of magic, and he forces the stunbolt to slam into the offender. If he were using the mathematics skill for centering rather than having linked it to hebrew, he'd do essentially the same thing, but by quickly calculating out the mana flow changes required.

Shaman: Sima Yuan, a chinese Spider shaman, wants to ensure that his target does not escape a cunningly laid trap - i.e. he wants to cast a glue spell. Quickly looking over the area, he centers using his Feng Shui skill, and tosses a handful of nails at the enemy (I.E. there needed to be more Metal Chi near the target, to balance the Air Chi that he evidenced in wanting to escape.). With the rebalanced magical geometry of the area, Yuan is able to better entreat Spider to assist him in stopping his enemy's escape - the 'phone lines' to Spider have less 'static'. If he'd used mathematics, he'd have calculated the geometry of how to trap his target in a magical 'web'.
Tiralee
For some reason, the thought of a mage using Car (Stunt-driving) as a centering skill is oddly appealing, and appalling, at the same time.

...Who else can picture a mage trying very hard to drive, and cast urban renewal at the same time while positioning the car so it can hit a ramp and balance on on 2 wheels?

Anyone want to hazard a guess at the TN's?

Oh!

Another suggestion for the adepts, and the more beefy mages out there. Grab your weapon, or weapon focus. Hold it high above your head and shout to the world, "By the power of Greyskull!".

Roll a Performance vs will skill test for the audience (and there's got to be somebody...) not to fall over laughing, and for the centering attempt to work.

L.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Knowledge.

Cooking is active, because it is the act of cooking stuff, such as mincing and slicing, flailing that pan around to do that neato food flip thing, grilling to perfection, etc. You do it with your body, and it includes learned reflexes.

Recipies is a Knowledge skill, i.e. knowing what goes into a brownie is pure memory, knowledge.
Ol' Scratch
<sighs> No, it's clearly a Knowledge Skill. Read over the thread.
Zazen
I just call them cheap active skills and use the knowledge skill table to determine costs. The problem with calling everything knowledge is that they're all linked to intelligence that way, and there are lots of fluff skills which should be based on and default to other stats. Also, it helps the players understand how active and knowledge skills are implemented differently.
Siege
QUOTE (Backgammon)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Dec 6 2003, 07:01 PM)
Knowledge.

Cooking is active, because it is the act of cooking stuff, such as mincing and slicing, flailing that pan around to do that neato food flip thing, grilling to perfection, etc. You do it with your body, and it includes learned reflexes.

Recipies is a Knowledge skill, i.e. knowing what goes into a brownie is pure memory, knowledge.

As much as it galls me to agree with Doc Funky, check out M&M page 108 (if memory serves).

The knowledge skill Chemistry is used in the manufacture of acids, drugs and whatnot.

That sets the precedent of using "knowledge" skills in an active fashion to create items. Which is how I would have made the distinction prior.

Until I actually looked at that paragraph closely, I would have agreed with you.

-Siege
Ol' Scratch
Why does everyone always say that?
CoalHeart
because you're wrong?
Ol' Scratch
ohplease.gif Whatever.
Lindt
Do I smell something broken? Yeah, thats what I thought. however, Im the one that pretty much rules that it you can 'DO' it, its an active skill. Hence, cooking, proformance, and electric kazoo are all active skills. Cannon or not? I dont care what you say, being able to mince parsly with out taking off a finger is so not a intelegance based thing.
Ol' Scratch
The same applies to Chemistry and Talismongering (both of which are easily equivalent to Cooking), yet they're both Knowledge Skills. And yet Computers is an Active Skill despite the fact that you can get away using nothing but your mind with it. Go figure.

I wonder why that is? Oh yes, I know. Because it's painfully clear that Active Skills are intended to be used for "the vital skills you use every day on a Shadowrun" while Knowledge Skills are intended to be "stuff you do in the background at your leisure, as a hobby, or just to round the character out as fluff." And that's precisely why you get those points for free.

But feel free to treat them however you like in your game. If you want to penalize a player (yes, a player) for building an interesting character, that's your perogative.
Zazen
The problem lies in the ambiguity. Bike B/R is a weekend hobby skill for lots of people. For other people, Police Procedures is a vital skill they use every day to stay alive.

I feel that it was a big mistake to set precedents for knowledge skills used as active skills. A few paragraphs about reducing costs for less vital skills would've sufficed.
Ol' Scratch
I agree. It was a good concept, they just didn't execute it well.
Ol' Scratch
I think the best thing they could have done would have been to fold "knowledge skills" into the active skills, then seperate skills between Primary Skills and Secondary/Hobby Skills. Doing that, they could have simply set a precedent that Secondary/Hobby Skills suffer a +2 TN when used actively on a run or whatever, yet the knowledge aspects would be unmodified.

So that way you could have two characters, both with Rifles (Primary; a sniper) and Rifles (Secondary; maybe he just likes to shoot clay pigeons on occassion). The sniper would have a base TN of 4 while the hobbiest would have a TN of 6 when shooting a bad guy with their respective rifles (but allowing a TN of 4 if shooting clay pigeons or performing other "hobby" oriented uses of the skill), but both would have a base TN of 4 to identify what kind of rifle Joe Blow has.

It sounds a bit convulted, I know, which is why they most likely did what they did -- for simplicity's sake.

EDIT: Shoot, I thought I was editing my last post.
Siege
If I had to re-write the skills section, I'd make the distinction thusly:

If you are creating, altering or somehow doing something, it qualifies as Active.

If you are regurgitating theory and concept, it qualifies as Knowledge.

Thus, you have Cooking (Active) and Cooking (Knowledge).

Sarcasms aside, the logic behind the skill system is mildly screwed at best and if you have any doubts, consult your GM for his (her) take on the subject.

-Siege
Dende
I still have a problem with you distinction there Seige.

In reality Active to me means like running, jogging, fighting, etc... knowledge would be math, science, research, etc...

That still leaves out communication skills, and don't give me anything about that being solely int based, believe me, intelegence isn't the only thing that makes you sound good. And Charisma isn't really active.

That of course still leaves out some other things...

My designation would be closer to not having active vs knowledge, instead having
Active Skills- anything needing strentgh, dexterity, etc...breaking stuff, fighting, sneaking around...
Mental Skills- Chemistry, Physics, Common Sense...things that need solid brain power
Combo Skills- Things like communication come here...things where you need both mental and active skills to get along...

Of course one general lump, like in DND could work, with each skill having a directly linked attribute and not drawing a line between active and knowledge... I also like Dr Funk's Primary and Secondary...but I think each type of skill needs primary and secondary/hobby.

EDIT: I should point out that in my system...Chemistry as a knowledge skill is book knowledge...actually knowing how to put atoms together in a lab is a combo skill apart from, but needed in conjunction with the knowledge one.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Dende)
EDIT: I should point out that in my system...Chemistry as a knowledge skill is book knowledge...actually knowing how to put atoms together in a lab is a combo skill apart from, but needed in conjunction with the knowledge one.

With sufficiently advanced equipment, the distinction is almost invisible.
Fortune
In my games, just like Doc, I define the different skills as:

Active Skills = Usually Useful in a Shadowrunning Situation.

Knowledge Skills = Hobby/Character Development.

This seems to solve most problems.
toturi
For me, the distinction between Active and Knowledge is simple.

Until otherwise ruled or errata-ed, any skill that isn't in the Canon skill list is Knowledge or is otherwise a subset of an Active skill.

No ambiguity, no confusion, absolutely clear.
DIABLO@magenet.org
It isn't hard people.

Knowledge skills help in roleplaying. Some people know of this and the rest have to ask.

Active helps in Roll playing. We all know that one, some to the exclusion of the other.

Now for the whole Chemistry debate, lets look at it logically. I know that if I mix Chemical A with Compound B while heating it to 100 C I will get Explosive C. Yes you do have to actively mix things and turn on a burner but it is all knowledge.

Computers are Active for game balance. Just use some common sense. Yes, I also know it is in short supply. Just do the best you can.
snowRaven
Doctor Funkenstein, your suggested division between professional and hobby for skills strikes me as quite ingenious upsidedown.gif A very neat idea, which I think I'll have to play with some...
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