How to play a possession mage wo. hoggin' the spotlight, I dont want to be a gamebreaker Options

[Lionhearted]

Lately i got intrested in Possession traditions (Mostly Tradition witchcraft and Kabbalah.. Voodoo aint exactly my cup of tea) Im all over it cause it opens up massive roleplaying opperturnities and is more stuffed with fluff than a gargantuan teddybear. However as I build the characters, I find a great liability.. possessing yourself with even mediocre force spirits (Force 6, or the like) not only gives you incredible adaptibility, but also you excel at pretty much anything you do, I see this as a potential gamebreaker as i can probably dust everything the GM throws our way and makes the game quite meaningless for my fellow players, Self possession however is one of the most attracting parts of possession traditions.
Please give some advice on how to structure the character, tips for how to play it and insight on how to resist the temptation of godhood.

The current character im planning is a traditional witch with roots in the Romanic sorcery heritage (read: Gypsy witch)

[Moon-Hawk]

I suspect it seems like a bigger problem than it is, but is there any other context you can give us? For example, can you tell us what (generally) the other characters will be? Also, any info on the expected style of play? Pink mowhawk shoot-em-up vs ultra stealthy vs the-list-goes-on-forever?

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I don't know about self-possession, but here's a few things my character started doing when his guardian spirits started making me feel like I was hogging:

1) Guidance spirit in the newspaper--hilarity
2) also in the air-freshener of the cab I drive. When the group's adept said he wanted to "Commune with spirits," I tossed him the air freshener. Again, hilarity.
3) articles of clothing--you still get access to the powers, ItNW helps keep you alive, but you're not suddenly throwing 20 dice to shoot a dude in the head or anything.
4) personal items, like trophies you've taken from runs (if you're into that sort of thing)--adds some neat flavor to the game. I have a War Mask that I wear, and when it's possessed with a spirit, it looks cool while I dance around a fire.
5) random objects that you find--I once possessed a dragon skull that we found (we most certainly did NOT kill a dragon) with a Guidance spirit, which then articulated the jaw to speak to us and pointed us toward a run.

As far as possessing yourself, you might want to look into Guardian spirits. They're not all that powerful in combat (at least compared to other spirits), and they can give you Divination, which leads to some fun, non-game-breaking magical badassery. You get to say cryptic things like "Omens foretell doom...."

[Jaid]

self-possession is no more interesting then any other type of posession (in fact, it's much *less* interesting in many ways than possessing others) unless you have channelling.

consider: a manifesting tradition conjures the spirit. he gains 2 extra actions per IP in the meat, or 3 in the astral, and they come into play at the start of the turn. additionally, the magician can continue to cast spells, can take cover and still be useful, etc.

a possession tradition conjures the same spirit. the spirit posesses him. depending, the mage will either gain 1 action (oh joy... [/sarcasm] or he will gain 0 actions or he will lose actions. the spirit cannot cast spells, and is not really any more useful than the manifesting spirit except if you're in a situation where you need to get shot by small arms a whole heck of a lot for some reason... what's so great about that?

[Lionhearted]

self-possession is no more interesting then any other type of posession (in fact, it's much *less* interesting in many ways than possessing others) unless you have channelling.

consider: a manifesting tradition conjures the spirit. he gains 2 extra actions per IP in the meat, or 3 in the astral, and they come into play at the start of the turn. additionally, the magician can continue to cast spells, can take cover and still be useful, etc.

a possession tradition conjures the same spirit. the spirit posesses him. depending, the mage will either gain 1 action (oh joy... [/sarcasm] or he will gain 0 actions or he will lose actions. the spirit cannot cast spells, and is not really any more useful than the manifesting spirit except if you're in a situation where you need to get shot by small arms a whole heck of a lot for some reason... what's so great about that?

According to the FaQ, it takes no services to make the spirit move.. bolster up with a increased reflexes spell before, order the spirit to shoot his enemies down, even wo. channeling that's a free 9 dices on any firearm (assuming force 6 spirit and agi of 4), make it a guardian spirit and give it automatics, suddenly you got 6+10= 16 dices.. for free, aswell as a badass soaking capability, alternatively you can make him swing your monosword, and with 4 passes a iniative of approx 20 w. 4 passes, atleast 15 dodge dices.. he makes your sammy cry.
With channeling you suddenly boast a force 6 spirit of any choice and you got a skill monster, agility 10, charisma 6 (more if you dare summon a higher force spirit, and easily boosted up with a increase att. spell), not to mention you still got access to the spirits skills, make it task and you master any skill of choice..

info on the expected style of play?

the pink mohawk factor will probably be pretty high, with some influence of social interaction, the other players is a war movie damaged psyard with lots of weaponskills and not much else(although i tried to convince him to take some ranks in stealth, and atleast 1 rank in a social skill of choice), the other player is a reaction freaked troll... got a dodge pool of 22 or something like that, I think the GM is forcing him to remake it, as he is not a big fan of min/maxing

[Stahlseele]

Twitch-Troll O.o
haven't seen that one in a long time . . that must take one big lot of energy!

and give yourself the spirit bane flaw, just let one of those possess you for a bit . . you won't be a happy little meatbag *g*

[Moon-Hawk]

According to the FaQ, it takes no services to make the spirit move.. bolster up with a increased reflexes spell before, order the spirit to shoot his enemies down, even wo. channeling that's a free 9 dices on any firearm (assuming force 6 spirit and agi of 4), make it a guardian spirit and give it automatics, suddenly you got 6+10= 16 dices.. for free, aswell as a badass soaking capability, alternatively you can make him swing your monosword, and with 4 passes a iniative of approx 20 w. 4 passes, atleast 15 dodge dices.. he makes your sammy cry.
With channeling you suddenly boast a force 6 spirit of any choice and you got a skill monster, agility 10, charisma 6 (more if you dare summon a higher force spirit, and easily boosted up with a increase att. spell), not to mention you still got access to the spirits skills, make it task and you master any skill of choice..

So, after spending a complex action to summon and waiting for another action for the spirit to possess you, you can have attack and defense pools roughly equal to the combat-heavy characters, who by this time have likely already done most of the fighting. Handy for large battles, but not even worth the time for skirmishes. Unless you're walking around as an NPC spirit all the time.
But lets assume channeling, since that's the only way for this to be any fun. Now we can assume you're walking around all pumped up. Well, assuming you're abandoning stealth and don't have to get past any spirits or wards. You can have one skill, which is nice, but any character's concept is going to require multiple skills. Even a mad hacking skill won't let you replace a dedicated hacker. Or a rigger. Or...pretty much anything. It'll let you help just about anyone, and being able to pull a single good skill out of your butt is cool. It's just like skillwires, in fact. It works a little bit better, but you suffer drain.
It's a cool idea. You get some cool stuff. But I really don't think it's as game breaking as you think it is. Also, make sure everyone's clear on how those rules work. A misunderstood rule or two is generally the basis for OMFG-Broken!!!1one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Helpful hint: Dice - plural. Die - singular. Dices - one of the verb forms of chopping something (such as food) into cubes. i.e. Watch as he dices the potatoes with a chef's knife and adds them to the soup.

[Lionhearted]

Ah crap, I always get that wrong.. never liked saying die anyway, sounds like a murder threat.. hence out of sloppiness it became, one dice, several dices.
now you got some several good points, the problem is.. the GM is fresher at shadowrun than I am (I have atleast played with experienced runners) , i doubt he even consider things like signatures, wards, background count, I'd raise my eyebrow in a spock'ish manner and applaud the man if he gets together and pit us against magical opposition at all.
@ Stahlseele
huh? what's a twitch-troll?

[Jaid]

Ah crap, I always get that wrong.. never liked saying die anyway, sounds like a murder threat.. hence out of sloppiness it became, one dice, several dices.
now you got some several good points, the problem is.. the GM is fresher at shadowrun than I am (I have atleast played with experienced runners) , i doubt he even consider things like signatures, wards, background count, I'd raise my eyebrow in a spock'ish manner and applaud the man if he gets together and pit us against magical opposition at all.
@ Stahlseele
huh? what's a twitch-troll?

so in other words, your plan is to spring a surprise on your GM and make the character as broken as possible?

well then, in that case, here's my advice to help you not steal the spotlight: don't do that. there you go, problem solved. and there was much rejoicing!

(and a twitch troll, based on context, is a troll specialised in dodging like a madman).

[Moon-Hawk]

i doubt he even consider things like signatures, wards, background count, I'd raise my eyebrow in a spock'ish manner and applaud the man if he gets together and pit us against magical opposition at all.

Soooo, you're worried that if you only use half the rules, the other half will be unbalanced. Ummmm, correct. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

You definitely need to have a sit-down with your GM and talk about what your character will and will not be able to do, and how all of it works, the actions and rolls required, etc. He either does not want to use the rest of the rules, in which case you'll have to work something out between you. I suggest using the rules. Alternately, you just won't be overpowered anymore. Still effective, fun, and cool, but not broken.

[Lionhearted]

so in other words, your plan is to spring a surprise on your GM and make the character as broken as possible?

well then, in that case, here's my advice to help you not steal the spotlight: don't do that. there you go, problem solved. and there was much rejoicing!

(and a twitch troll, based on context, is a troll specialised in dodging like a madman).

hence the purpose of this thread, how to being able to play what i want to play and making it worth the while, without totally crushing the GM
Note: I usually do the GM'ing in our group but as I've been GM for every session the last sixth months I long to be able to play aswell..

Soooo, you're worried that if you only use half the rules, the other half will be unbalanced. Ummmm, correct. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

You definitely need to have a sit-down with your GM and talk about what your character will and will not be able to do, and how all of it works, the actions and rolls required, etc. He either does not want to use the rest of the rules, in which case you'll have to work something out between you. I suggest using the rules. Alternately, you just won't be overpowered anymore. Still effective, fun, and cool, but not broken.

Good idea.. however im not entirely sure about the warding rules myself (its not like they've been nice and put it all in same place) .. mind enlightening me?

[Malicant]

possessing yourself with even mediocre force spirits (Force 6, or the like)

The hell? Force 6 is like, you now, not mediocre. Mediocre is Force 2. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Force 6 is mediocre compared to the Force 12 that a starting mage can theoretically pull. And yes, I said "theoretically." I recognize that actually trying it is usually pointless and sometimes suicidal (but also sometimes AWESOME).

[Larme]

Someone with a dodge pool of 22 can still take it from a full wide burst. -9 dice to dodge = 13 dice = easily matched by skilled opposition. Combined with APDS ammo, that's going to hurt mister dodgie. If your GM would rather nerf the troll than have an NPC pick up a goddamn assault rifle, I despair for possession mages being allowed anywhere near the table. There are lots of counters to possession mages - their hardened armor is totally negated by spells, and largely negated by electrical attacks like zapper rockets. And they can be banished without much fuss. Not to mention what happens to possessed spirits when the opposition lays down a mana static spell. But again, if your GM is too lazy to throw in a basic assault rifle to threaten a dodgie troll, what are the chances he'll be willing to tailor the game to challenge your possession mage?

The only way I can see it working is if you totally gimp your possession mage. Make him a mystic adept with 2-3 points of passive powers like combat sense and mystic armor, and 2-3 points of magic. That will limit your conjuring dice pool, and make you take physical drain summoning spirits with force 6, so you won't automatically want to use max force all the time, and when you do they will only have a few services. And you won't be entirely crappy, because your passive adept powers will still help you out. I would also avoid taking a mentor spirit, or any foci to boost your conjuring, so your dice pool stays pretty small. And be an Aspected conjuror. If you take all those steps, while your character won't be utterly worthless, no GM with a tiny shred of brain would be able to claim that you were broken.

[fulcra]

A good way to nerf your possession spirit character so that he doesn't steal the spotlight is for him to have an addiction to practical jokes in the middle of combat, or has a tendency to spout running commentary of events every other action, rather than actually act. You could give yourself the flaw that makes you freeze up for the first pass of combat. That'll give the rest of the group time to do things before you take over. They'll feel like they're influencing things.

Make him schizophrenic in combat, so that he has to continually stop, and with his new "persona" try and figure out what's going on.

In general though, I don't find the "self possession + channeling" characters anything more than a broken way of leveraging some rules to make super characters. It has nothing to do with fluff or role playing, it's just applying a bunch of rules to break the game.

[masterofm]

You don't have to hog the spotlight. You can tone down your character even if the character has tons of potential you don't just bust out your A++ game every time. Also if you bring the hammer when maybe something less vicious means that people will know the hammer was used. Also people investigating the situation might start noticing a pattern in the way your character operates. Does taking out some lowlife ganger mean that you should possess yourself and go shit nuts on the guy? Probably not. I mean if your already asking how you should tone it down then your halfway there already. Don't always bring out the force six spirits, don't always possess yourself, don't always bring the crazy. Then you don't have to hog the spotlight 24-7.

[Fortune]

How about just choosing not to casually summon up Force 6 Spirits? You win in two ways ... shit-loads less Drain, and you don't have the spotlight-hogging, mega-character syndrome whenever you use Possession.

[Edge2054]

I think the easiest way to do this is to remember that spirits are not an extension of your PC. In both of the possession traditions you mentioned spirits are viewed in very particular ways by the practitioners. They're not the elementals to be used and abused that hermetic mages summon, they're beings to be respected or feared.

In Kabbalah the spirits that possess you are seen as extensions of God. They're not beings you should call upon on a whim. Granted Kabbalah does have two sides, a more religous one and a more scholarly one. Either way though the fundamental belief in what these beings are is pretty similar. They should be respected.

In the witchcraft tradition you're going to be summoning spirits into bottles and shit mostly, witches don't trust spirits and allowing one to actually possess you would be the exception and not the rule.

From an rp/fluff perspective think about what these spirits are in the tradition you're following. Sure by the book they're just spirits that owe you but how are these spirits going to act when you force them into your body to use their abilities? They'll carry out their services surely but is an extension of God going to be happy about helping you commit robbery? Murder? How many lectures about the 'error of their ways' will the team have to sit through while the spirit carries out the service you've given it? How's that fey spirit possessing your witch going to treat the other players? Will it use concealment on the Street Sam's weapons just for fun? How about accident on your troll dodge monkey? Possession is a great opprotunity for RP and it's up to you as the player to follow through with that. Role-play both your character's view on these spirits and role-play the spirits themselves when they're in the driver's seat and really it's pretty hard to abuse. They're not your toys, they're not your smartlinked Ares Predator, they're not your commlink. They may be around to carry out your command but they do have their own motivations beyond that.

[Whipstitch]

I'd say don't worry so much and just make the character more of a general practictioner utility magician rather than bother to jack up your meat attributes in order to have maximum possessed firepower. Remember, you only gain a bonus equal to the Spirit's Force, not its attribute totals, so as long as you aren't completely focused on taking your Possessed attributes to insane levels you could be both a flexible foci designer, ritual magician and enchanter by skimping on meat attributes while still having a formidable combat trick via self-possession when a fight breaks out. Honestly, I don't really think this is a Possession issue, just a Summoning issue. Possession does make it fairly difficult to harm a mage, but unless that mage happens to have Samurai style attributes the resulting merge isn't often all that much stronger than a materialized Air Spirit and a Magician working in tandem-- and often less destructive. High force spirits are tough for many GMs to deal with in general.

[Cthulhudreams]

Start with a lower magic score, either by cybering up or just deliberately. Then you'll be breaking out less explosive magic tricks which makes thing easier on your GM.

Then your character can grow in tandem with his GMing skill, so you get bigger tricks over time as he becomes more able to handle them.

[Serial_Peacemake...]

Actually I forget can your Hacker still do hacking when possessed? However really being able to boast your non-combat buddies to combat level fighters is useful.

[Larme]

Not without Channeling he can't. A vessel has no control over his body, and can't use any skills. All he can do is issue commands to the spirit that's possessing him, assuming he controls it of course.

[Jaid]

Actually I forget can your Hacker still do hacking when possessed? However really being able to boast your non-combat buddies to combat level fighters is useful.

no. when possessed, the spirit takes your place. everything about you is gone, except for your physical attributes and cyber that doesn't require active use (for example, if you had spurs out when you were possessed, the spirit could use them; if not, the spirit could not make them come out so it could use them).

being able to boost your buddies to combat level is by no means a sure thing, unless your team's magician only has to cover 1 person's weakness, and doesn't need his 1 unbound spirit for anything else. seriously, bound spirits beyond force 4 or maybe 5 should be pretty rare (mainly because of the drain involved), and that's really not putting you into combat character territory... that's putting you more into 'combat as a secondary role' territory (a proper street sam will have 5(7) agility which you will likely match with the spirit's help. he will also have skill 4(6), a smartlink, and quite possibly reflex recorders... which your spirit won't match, most likely. he will probably also have infiltration, perception, the ability to use different weapons depending on the scenario, a good dodge skill, and more IPs than your non-combat character when possessed... pretty much the only thing your character can do that the sam can't do better is get shot by small arms by people with low dice pools and not get hurt, whereas there will be many combat-related tasks the sam can do much better than a spirit-possessed non-combat character).

honestly, i would consider it a far more useful thing to conjure a high force spirit and have it possess an *enemy* rather than a friend. at least you're taking actions away from the other side, and letting your non-combat character do something which he's actually good at, instead of using him as a bullet sponge and hoping the other side doesn't get a lucky shot in that penetrates the immunity. (and/or uses tasers)

[Cthulhudreams]

What I want to know is can a hacker use VR while possessed by a high force spirit, and hack via a DNI while the spirit does its thing with his fleshform?

[Whipstitch]

You guys who are familiar with me probably see this coming already, but I have to say that I agree with Jaid. Honestly, I'm not a big of Possession traditions for simple utility reasons. I find Spirits more useful as an extra set of hands with a few unique magical abilities than anything else, and that's what Materialized Spirits excel at due to the fact that they simply don't need a vessel at all. It's nice if a Spirit can throw down in a pinch, but I don't always expect or require them to set the world on fire or to take out an enemy with one instantly. Maybe it just reflects my playing style more than anything, but much like Jaid said, bound Spirits of around Force 3 or so tend to be my workhorses since that's when they're just good enough to be useful thanks to gaining their first optional power. I play Conjurer focused Magicians all the time, and honestly, nine times out of ten shooting for 3 hits while Invoking Force 3 Plant Spirit in order to have Movement, Search and a bucket of services is a lot better than playing Russian roulette and burning through high priced Force 5+ binding materials in exchange for an uncertain result. Speaking of Invoking, I'll take a Materialization Magician with Invoking over a Channeling Magician with Possession any day for a Summoning/Binding based character easy.


P.S.

Please just don't tell me I don't know how to play a Magician. I "break" games all the time, but it's by repairing mcguffins, spanking Shedim, rockin' the Movement power and generally raising hell in the Astral rather than forcing myself and my friends to be dual-natured all the time.