Dragon PC poll, As has been requested... Options

[Zolhex]

It's a shame you can't see how the votes in the separate categories are tied together. I voted that the rules appeared well done (though play-testing would be a must and it would vary massively according to play style), but I also voted that there is no way I would allow this in my game. Got to say that I really wasn't expecting dragon PC rules.

Nobody expects the PC dragon rules! oh wait thats the spanish inquision never mind.

[Blade]

I didn't expect to have such rules. This can be a late joke or this can be an extreme example of different playstyles. The shadowrun universe is big and complex enough to allow players to play much more than just shadowrunners. I'm not interested in dragons PC and I even dislike the idea, but if some people want to play dragons...
And I won't complain about the "waste of space" because companion's book are always full of options you'll never use, anyway.

EDIT: Well, I think it's a joke anyway, because of the obsidimen. I'd be really surprised if they decided to include them in Shadowrun this way.

[Fuchs]

And think of the fun stories we'll get to read : "And there was this clueless dragon PC, ended up as reagents after far too many mistakes".

[ravensmuse]

As I said in the original post for this, I'm okay with these rules. It would have to be a special occassion to use them (like, if we were doing a meta-variant campaign, or a one-shot, or a convention game) but the option would be on the table. Plus, I've got BP totals now to build dragon NPCs with, which I can't complain about.

But you can't say, "ooo, power creep in the house!" Most games stick to the BBB with some supplemental aid. If you're posting on here, you're probably already familiar with telling your players what they can and can't play. So it's definitely not a gamebreaker for me.

In fact, I really dig this idea because in its own way it does expand the SR world a little more. I mean, we can do a dragon game now, younglings trying to find their way in the world. Maybe it means we'll get a Dragons of the Sixth World 2, who knows?

[Fuchs]

I mainly like it because I think it'll "de-mythify" Dragons.

[hermit]

If you're posting on here, you're probably already familiar with telling your players what they can and can't play. So it's definitely not a gamebreaker for me.

Why that assumption? IF this really makes it's way into RC, I'll have to kick a player entirely. Drake fangirl. Her Drake characters already are pretty annoying. Now, She'll be only wanting to play dragons and bitch and yell because I'll never have that in a game I participate in, either as GM or as a player.

Catering to differnet play styles is fine, but hey, this isn't D&D, we don't need vastly unbalanced PC races (yes, the dragons in that excerpt are - Their BASIC ATTRIBUTES are as high as most startup characters' entire DP. They don't NEED skills, they can just default). And optional rules are often considered rules as well. If Dragon PC are allowed, it's going to cause a lot of annoyances for me as a player as well as a GM. Yeah. Another reason to just stick with third and convert interesting stuff down.

Still hoping this is a joke, though.

[paws2sky]

When I first saw this I thought "hahaha, almost as good as the D20 Shadowrun prank."
Then I realized its was April 2nd.

So, I sat down with this last night with the intention of converting a particular background NPC in my SR3 game. In reviewing the rules, I realized a couple things.

1) I think calling these adult dragons is pretty generous. I suppose, technically, these aren't hatchlings, but their real maturity level ought to be based on the number of BP you're starting with. A 400BP dragon is VERY different than one built at 500+ BP.

2) We're missing some rules. There's at least one more page in that entry, from what I can tell, including a section on negative qualities that all dragons get, just because they're dragons.

3) And finally... they're really not that bad. Take a real close look at what a 400 BP dragon is like. Assuming you go with a Feathered Serpent, you base stats and 100 BP left for everything else. And the bare bones minimum for "everything else" I'd want to take as a PC would include:

• Conjuring Group: 1
• Influence Group: 1
• Sorcery Group: 1
• Flying Skill: 1
• Shapechange
• 4 other spells
• 55,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

That's 60 of your 100 remaining BP and your a so-so mage who can schmooze people... sort of. And that's without buying up any of your attributes beyond starting.

For me, the real issue with a Dragon PC is that it would totally change the flavor of the game.

I do like the notion of "de-mystifying" dragons though.

[raverbane]

Ok, let me say that I really hope this is some kind of late April's Fool joke. It would make sense it is late. It is coming from a game publisher we all know they never do anything on time. The reason I am hoping so hard for this to be a joke is the fact it is so poorly written and so full of typos and grammerical errors. But, given the plethora of poor grammer in Arsenal, I just don't know. I will post a few examples.

"Evidently a dragon is exempt from Piloting Tests to move about normally,"
Evidently? Why is that disclaimer even there in a non-fluff rule sentence?

"Every time a dragon loses Essence to implantation he must make a Willpower + Magic Test with a Threshold of 3. If he fails he automatically gains a 10 point Mental Negative Quality."
Every dragon has a combined base Willpower + Magic of 11. Just raise either one more point and they can beat this with just buying successes.

"Fortunately the development of AR has made it easier than ever to interface with technology—though this requires specialized nanotrodes custom-made and configured to the draconic brain which are both expensive and difficult to acquire on open market (Cost: 50,000Y and Availability 20) but might be possible to procure from certain corporations in return for services rendered."

Then the very next paragraph on the next page contradicts this!!

"Dragons in their natural form have some difficulty using trode-nets, since they must be custom-designed for them, costing 20 times the normal amount."

"All cyber, bio, nano and geneware augmentations for dragons must be custom-designed, of course, making them automatically the equivalent of deltaware with an additional cost multiplier of 4 (for a total multiplier of 12 times the normal cost)."

Last time I checked, deltaware costs x10. And 4+10 doesnt equal 12.

"kept to dragonkind. which allows higher level"

Need to capitalize the 'W' in which and the black box isn't the correct size for the paragraph.

And....

"Metahuman Form
While unable to shift into a human form at will as great dragons do, dracoforms are capable of using magic to assume metahuman (and other) forms, but it is not an innate ability for them, meaning that the dragon must possess the Shapechange spell and must be sustain and maintain it for it to be persistent."

If this isnt a joke (heaven forbid) I guess that settles the on again / off again arguement about whether or not metahumans are critters for the sake of Shapechange. But....

"Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating is 2 points greater or less than her own."

Given the the base body for dragons ranges from 9-12, I guess dragons won't be using thier Shapechange spell to become humans or elves.

No Dev type has responded to either of the threads about the dragons since the the issue got started. It would be nice to hear from them on this issue and also if this does mean the Unwired is being pushed back. I certainly hope Unwired isnt being pushed back. It would be nice for them to concentrate efforts on putting out a book to fix a Shadowrun core system (Hacking) which has many, many issues before putting out a book that is a series of optional rules.

And if the above is any indicator, an optional rules set that is filled with errors and issues in its own right.

I am not trying to be critical of this because I dont want to see more and more options open to GMs and players. I love having new and cool stuff to play. I just want to see it done correctly.

[Maelwys]

And think of the fun stories we'll get to read : "And there was this clueless dragon PC, ended up as reagents after far too many mistakes".

Good lord. Talk about a bread winner.

"So Mr.Talismonger, how much would you pay for free Dragon reagents? Toenails, maybe some blood, and if you throw in a little extra cash maybe we can go for something a bit more exotic..."

[Backgammon]

I'm not sure what the 50% of people that thought this wasn't a joke means. I sort of uphold us Shadowrun community to be, basically, more cynical and pragmatic people than the norm. I would have expected a far bigger number of people to figure this was a joke. Or perhaps it would have been worse had we not been shadowrun gamers, like mayber 70-80% of people thinking this wasn't a joke.

[hobgoblin]

I mainly like it because I think it'll "de-mythify" Dragons.

ones science gets involved, that happens to anything living.

as long as it can be observed and monitored, sooner or later the myths will make way for statistics...

only problem is when said myths have become religious doctrine, as that do not like being proved false...

still, this is the common dragon (if such a thing can be called common). i cant see anything about great dragon stats (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (oh wait, both common and greats are statted in the critters chapter of the BBB, forget about myths, they are long gone).

[ravensmuse]

Why that assumption? IF this really makes it's way into RC, I'll have to kick a player entirely. Drake fangirl. Her Drake characters already are pretty annoying. Now, She'll be only wanting to play dragons and bitch and yell because I'll never have that in a game I participate in, either as GM or as a player.

Sorry, that did come off as a little confrontational. My only excuse was that I was typing it so early in the morning.

What I was trying to say was that if you're familiar with Dumpshock, then you're familiar with the various game breaking (real or not) combinations that can come to light, and should be familiar with either informing your GM or your players as to what you will and won't allow.

But think about some of the flaws already pointed out here. They'll be sponging karma for awhile to make up for skill deficiency. A sustained shapechange spell is necessary just to go on a Stuffer Shack run (or else it'll quickly become, "quick! A dragon is rampaging down the streets! Call the Army!"). AR or VR is out, and it's probably not a good idea to shoot for augmentation - and karma will be expensive.

Those are just the personal issues. There's also the issue of people trying to make a buck off of them, like talismongers, the corps, and maybe even their own teammates. And what about draconic rivals? At least one other dragon is going to think they're cutting in on their turf, or will try to eliminate a rival that may not even exist.

In short, dragon characters have a giant "Kick Me" sign on their back and everyone's aiming for it. They've got nice meaty starting abilities and salient powers, but they're going to have to play it cool and cautious until the karma starts rolling in. It's an interesting from both a PC standpoint (man, what kind of games can I run with characters like them?) and an NPC point (kay, so I have to spend X BP for this guy...) but they'll require a lot of GM overwatch, which I can deal with.

Myself, drake girl? Ler her run with it, but play up the flaws. If she really wants to be something that awesometastic, then let her deal with the consequences. I mean, it's only fair.

This got really long, but writing this post helped *me* understand these (possible) rules better, so all the better for it.

[Maelwys]

I'm not sure what the 50% of people that thought this wasn't a joke means. I sort of uphold us Shadowrun community to be, basically, more cynical and pragmatic people than the norm. I would have expected a far bigger number of people to figure this was a joke. Or perhaps it would have been worse had we not been shadowrun gamers, like mayber 70-80% of people thinking this wasn't a joke.

Why would you assume that something posted on April 2nd is a joke?

I mean, no offense to Adam, but if it is an April Fool's joke, he wasn't even close. Its not like he slipped it in during the waning hours of April first and no one really noticed it till April 2nd, according to the timestamp on the website says it came in at 18:00 on April 2nd.

[paws2sky]

Thus the one(?) person who made the missed deadline connection...

[Maelwys]

Hrrm?

[paws2sky]

Synner's reply to FlakJacket in the other thread. Here

Oh course, still seems awfully tight lipped about it, but...

[Maelwys]

Ah, poking fun of themselves by missing the deadline for April Fool's. Well, its possible I suppose.

Now that its the 3rd, they can go ahead and confirm or deny (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

edit
Besides, if they wanted to set it up that way, then the BT joke should've been late, and the SR one should show up in a year or two (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
/edit

[Nightwalker450]

Maybe it was meant for a joke, but if enough people like the idea of Dragon PC's, it will end up in the book. So then the real question is whether or not Obsidimen will be in there as well, but we don't have information to tell us enough about them.

[adamu]

This was one of the scariest things I have seen in the rules in a long time.

But as it becomes more and more apparent that it is indeed a joke, then I breathe a huge sigh of relief and whole-heartedly concede - 'Ya got me.'

Best dark humor I've seen so far this year.

[quentra]

I really wouldn't mind dragons PCs, honestly, even in a 400BP (standard) game. Why? Cause if you can build a troll that can shoot arrows through Citymasters, and pornomancers that throw 30+ die on social skills, why not dragons? They are pretty gimped skillwise, and they do have one hell of a 'Kick Me!' sign.

Why would a dragon run when it can sell shedded scales for ridiculous amounts of cash? Maybe they're just bored.

[Backgammon]

Thus the one(?) person who made the missed deadline connection...

Yeah I had read Synner's post before writting that, which basically confirmed the joke. I didn't believe it from the beginning, but not because I had ingenious insight and put all the clues together (though I've been around for a while, I sorta know what to expect)- which is the point of my post.

There were reasons to believe it was a joke just as there was reason to believe it was real. I would have thought the Shadowrun community would have leaned MORE towards concluding it was a joke that thinking it was real faced with that decision. You know what I mean?

[raverbane]

Synner's reply to FlakJacket in the other thread. Here

Oh course, still seems awfully tight lipped about it, but...

Very tight lipped. Since it is long past April Fool's day I wish they would simply confirm or deny it and the community could move on. This sort of makes me think it was a 50 / 50. Not sure if the fans would ridicule them or not for putting some dribble out. So, they post it close to April fools. If it gets good reviews, then they say it isnt a joke and continue on. But, if it does show to be the ill written thing that it is, then they can say it is a joke. "hehe, laughs on you. Isn't it funny? Come on guys, laugh. Please?"

Sort of what Bruckhiemer did when they "released/leaked" the Euro trailer for Transformers that had Optimus Prime with lips. When the fanbase completely slaughted them for days on how stupid it looked, they jump in with "That wasnt real, it was a test mat copy that was never to be released"

Any good comedian will tell you humor is all about timing. If this is a joke, it was a day late and a writer short.

[raverbane]

Yeah I had read Synner's post before writting that, which basically confirmed the joke. I didn't believe it from the beginning, but not because I had ingenious insight and put all the clues together (though I've been around for a while, I sorta know what to expect)- which is the point of my post.

There were reasons to believe it was a joke just as there was reason to believe it was real. I would have thought the Shadowrun community would have leaned MORE towards concluding it was a joke that thinking it was real faced with that decision. You know what I mean?

Under other circumstances I would agree with you that it should be an obvious joke. But, given the plethora of writing and editting errors in arsenal ( http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20299 ), the player base has reason to be leary.

[cREbralFIX]

Dragons are plot-generators; they are not PCs.

***

An all Dragon campaign?

[WearzManySkins]

This could be a "testing of the waters", ie seeing how the player base reacts, if bad they say it was a ill timed April Fools Prank, if reaction is neutral or good they continue development of such DREK!!.

Most of the April Fools Pranks I have done, seen or read about, once preformed then admission of what it was performed at or near the same time of surprise.

Since this has not occurred......

WMS