 Character Creation System, Just a few thoughts |
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 Dec 10 2003, 02:54 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 7-December 03 Member No.: 5,883  |
Maybe you should have put more time into it then (I can come up with a crappy chargen system in 10 minutes too, building a good one is what takes effort) No one else has mentioned spell points, so i will. 50 spell points for a full mage. jimminy christmas! there was a REASON that aspected mages got more than full mages: if you're just a sorcerer, you're probably better at it. a magician used to have to get at least 625,000 nuyen to get up to 50 spell points. that was overkill IMO, but it still meant that they had to put some points/priority into money to keep up. now they're maxed out for free, while aspecteds have to take a high priority (at least 375,000 nuyen) in resources just to keep up. why play an aspected if you have to have B be magic, and A be resources. and pretty much all you've done is to upgrade everything from the previous priority system. increase skills, atributes and nuyen. if it ain't broke, why fix it? |
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Dec 10 2003, 05:16 AM
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#27
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
So then it is your opinion that someone who can only look at the astral plane (astral vision aspected) is better than one who can go there when ever he/she wants to (astral projection full) and have the full force of mana flow through them? sorry but I disagree a full magical user has a much stronger connection to magic so they should be given more points. as to the 50 I may adjust that to 40 whlie leaveing the cap at 50 but I have not decided. as to crappy that is why i put it up here to see what people thought so thanks for you opinion. |
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Dec 10 2003, 05:26 AM
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#28
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
The point in giving the greater number of spellpoints to aspected magicians is to allow them to excel at their area of expertise. An aspected sorcerer is likely to be better at spellcasting than a full mage, just as an aspected conjurer is likely to be better at conjuration than a full mage. The full mage beats them both, hands down, when it comes to more fully rounded view of magic (and the combos available in spells + spirits are not to be underestimated).
In-game the groggies don't get much benefit over the full mage in terms of learning theif craft, so it has to come at character generation if you want the "limited but good at what they do" description to hold. |
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Dec 10 2003, 05:39 AM
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#29
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
thats all well and good but the fact is that in no way shape or form can a full mage max out under the priority system that in my book SUCKS I so enjoyed haveing a shit load of spells at charater creation and all at a level that they were usefull. I maen 10 level 5 spells at the start cool even better 12 level 4's and one level 2 bitchin. and seeing as they can start with spirits the greater spell points give them the ability to be what they were supposed to be bad asses that get screwed due to limited karma in a game session
But again my opinion you say reduce ok so give me an example that is benificial to both types of magic users. |
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Dec 10 2003, 07:13 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 7-December 03 Member No.: 5,883 |
Ok, so if you love starting with lots of spells as a full mage, don't you think a sorcery adept, someone whose only goal is to cast spells, would want to start with a full load? but no, we won't give it to him.
You're still hitting the point that if I want to be someone who just does sorcery, I should just take a full mage aspect and then not put any skill in conjuring, and never astrally project, then I could use B for atributes (the other thing mages need lots of). At the very least, aspecteds should be equal. But the solution I found that works is to lower the cost of spell points. 25000 is an insane amount to pay for a spell point. that means a level 6 spell costs 150,000. that's more than a cyberarm, plus the point/priority expenditure you have to pay to be magical. In our group, we lower spell point cost to 15,000. that helps out alot, and could probably be altered a bit more. now a full mage needs only 325,000 to max out, and an aspected needs 225. And your point about mages buying spirits is silly. why pay 25,000 per force for an elemental when you can summon it in game for 1,000 per point? when you finish chargen, you keep 10% of whatever nuyen you have leftover, right? that's still 2,500 per point, so you're still coming out ahead to save your money and summon them in game. And if you're a shaman, then all your spirits go away with the next sunrise/set. |
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Dec 10 2003, 07:31 AM
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#31
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
On the other hand, conjurors probably do come out better than full magicians in chargen. They don't need all those points to buy spells, so they can use them for other things like (if your GM allows it) ally spirits or initiation which, in effect, makes them more powerful in their field than full mages who just aren't going to have the points to spend on that at chargen.
Granted, that still doesn't fix the sorcerer's or other spellcasting groggies' problems. For them, I think they should get exactly the same spell points as a full magician. I'd certainly allow it in my campaign. They drop versatility and already gain something back - a higher priority to use for something else. All other things being equal, they should get the same power level as a full mage. They're not less powerful at all - just less well rounded. |
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Dec 10 2003, 04:40 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 7-December 03 Member No.: 5,883 |
Well think about this: if you wanted to make a conjuring adept, it's still better (by the rules here) to make a full mage and just never use sorcery or astral projection, than to make a conjuring adept. when you compare the two, you have to think what kind of conjuring adept you could make out of being a full mage, and then compare those two.
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Dec 10 2003, 08:26 PM
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#33
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Astral projection alone is worth the priority shift, really. If you really want to have maxed out full mages, I'd look at lowering the cost of spell points as Yum Donuts suggested instead of changing the current balance. The loss of spirits or spells (and thus banishment or spell defense) is also a big deal and not one to be taken lightly.
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Dec 10 2003, 08:53 PM
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#34
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Ok made some changes look it over too much too little what?
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Dec 10 2003, 09:34 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 7-December 03 Member No.: 5,883 |
Interesting... that is a bit better, but I would ask what a conjuring adept needs willpower for (granted it's the linked atribute for conjuring, but they never actually use it). maybe Cha+Magic x3.5 just a thought.
I would also warn you that you'll get things I don't think you want with mages now feeling obliged to max out their charisma for the same reason that every sammy on the planet maxes out intelligence. it has nothing to do with in-character abilities, but numbers-wise, who can afford not to? I'd also point out that an elven mage with exceptional atribute in int or charisma could get 55 spell points, if that worries you. You're going to end up with alot of people who otherwise might not make all their stats super high who feel they have to just to get enough spells to actually be useful. |
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Dec 10 2003, 09:40 PM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 15-April 03 From: My own personal purgatory Member No.: 4,453 |
It still looks to me like you've basically gone and upped the power level across the board (well, except for penalizing dwarfs and orks by increasing their priority). Maybe you wrote this and I missed it, but could you explain why you find it necessary to do this?
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Dec 10 2003, 11:08 PM
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#37
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Ok you have a point with the conjurers although Cha.+magic x 3.5 is only 42 max where as with what I have up there at this points and time every magic type character has the ability to max out at 45 makes it even something that was suggested before. Next point you say mages could be a problem with the whole idea of Cha. as a source for the starting spell points. I ask why? mages need Cha. for the whole reason of conjuring spirits. I never ever make a full magically active character and then give that character a moderate to low Cha. it is always every time maxed out. I also max out Intell. on all my characters due to the need of points for knowledge skill points & language skill points. As to willpower it to gets maxed on all my magically active characters it just makes sence to me to do so. My firends also max out these three attributes when playing a magically active character. My characters suffer in the physicals because the concept of magically active characters (except for adepts) is that they have ignored their physical for the mental so as to be better at magic. Just like most top deckers who sit in chairs with feeding tubes so the can stay jacked in so it goes for a magically active character you want the Cha. (spirits) Will. (drain) Intell. (know how). Now as to 55 spell points remember max is 50 and there are better edges to take especially when if they are allowed in your game (they are not in mine) your gm useally will have a max number of points allowed for edges and flaws (or at least I would). |
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Dec 10 2003, 11:17 PM
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#38
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Upped the power. Because it needed it never did have enough points for Attributes heck I was gonna go with max Attributes of A at 36 so that if you took A on Attributes you could max out if you wanted to but I changed my mind. Also I did not raise the max skill points just made them even in the amount the get decreased by as you go down the list so yes most are better but it is more balanced. As to Dwarfs and Orks never liked thirds Idea (second did it right when you used the optional rule of C) that some metahuman races were easier to be than the others so the increase from D to C is again a balance issue. Thanks for your question got more feel free to ask I'll do what I can to answer them. |
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Dec 11 2003, 03:29 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 7-December 03 Member No.: 5,883 |
Well here we may be coming to the crux of the problem: you're powergaming. I don't put 6 points into charisma unless the character will be charismatic (strange concept, I know, but stay with me). I also play any character with maxed willpower as being willful, and any character with maxed int as being brilliant. Otherwise it's like making a character with a high strength and playing him weak. So what you're essentially complaining about in the current priority system is that you can't play a full mage who has full spell points, maxed out all his mental atributes, and still has enough left over to get all his other atributes up to decent amounts, then has enough skill points to max out sorcery, conjuring, and 3 other skills (At the lowest). but you don't like playing dwarves or orks, so those guys should get penalized. well, lets say you do get more atribute points, all of a sudden you'll have mages with maxed out mental atributes and good physical atributes, but that's ok, because all the Sammies will have enough atribute points to max out willpower so they won't be able to be hit by spells. |
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Dec 11 2003, 03:35 AM
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#40
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
This then means that all Mages will Tattoo +Str, +Qui, +Bod, and all the rest on themselves so that way they can further surpass the mundanes. Then the poor Street Sammies will have to learn to snipe from a distance further than Detect (Enemies) will work.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:14 AM
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#41
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Ok I am not power gaming as you say if that is you opinion then your welcome to it but that is not how I see it. Charisma is for the spirits I conjure as a fully magically active character because this is the only Attribute that matters in conjuring. Now before anyone jumps in yes I know you need other attributes but charisma is the big one in conjuring because it is what is used for drain if you end up knocked out then you either loose the spirit or it kills you not good. As I stated earlier in this topic all my characters both mundane and magically active have their Intelligences maxed for the sole reason of Knowledge & Language points ALL OF THEM not just the magical ones that is how I play. Now for Willpower lets see it is used for drain when tossing spells used to resist spells tossed at you and states the max number of spirits you can control so it is an extremely important Attribute and needs to be maxed out. As to physical Attributes and my system at best a full magically active character would at best get to 3 the average. As to Skills I take sorcery and conjuring at 6 then all my other Skills are rarely over a 3 although if I feel it is a skill that makes sence for the type of character I am playing then that character will get that Skill or Skills at 4 or 5 sometimes (rarely though) at 6. So no I don't need the Skill points for big bad Skills I need them so as to have several low to average Skills that round out my character for the concept of role-playing and not roll-playing. I don't like Dwarfs or Orks????? is that why I have 3 of each as characters? Yeah that must be it of course I also have 3 Elves 3 Trolls & 3 Humans see I beleive in balance!!!! As to them getting penalized no they are not I made them equal just like in SHADOWRUN 1ST & 2ND EDITION!!!!! As to sammies becomeing as your wording implys invulnerable to magic not likely will they have a better ability to defend against spells yes but then again a powerfull spell say 6 or 7 has a chance to drop anyone (same thing goes for the one bullet theory don't ya know). Remember this is a game with dice you don't roll well you die no if ands or buts about it. The only thing that is gonna save your hide if you screw up is the ever powerfull HAND OF GOD. Oh and by the way seeing as Willpower is the target of most spells guess what other Attribute gets maxed out on all my characters? You guessed right if you said Willpower. But me a power gamer maybe/maybe not but 2 Attributes maxed out (unless it is a magically active character) in my book does not make me a power gamer. Nor does haveing 2 or 3 (sometimes 4) (very rarely 5) Skills maxed out make me a power gamer. Anyway thanks for your thoughts maybe one day we can play and then you will see that I work hard to make well rounded characters. |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:17 AM
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#42
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Tattoo ????? is this more of the optional rules that you use???? |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:18 AM
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#43
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Gee, I usually max a character's intelligence because I see them as smart. When I see a character as not being so smart, I generally don't max their intelligence. Funny concept, eh? ~J |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:20 AM
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#44
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
(Quote edited for excessive punctuation) Yes, it's an "optional rule", to the extent that any rule presented in a book outside the BBB is an optional rule. It's a variant on Quickening. ~J |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:28 AM
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#45
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
I play my characters as smart I have once or twice not maxed out intelligence that is in all the years of playing. It's like when I play Rifts attributes are important but I focus on skills and then I go for as many physical skills that I can get. These skills and/or attributes help to make a well rounded out character for as I said role-playing instead of roll-playing. But hey like I said that is how I play people like my characters and how I play them. Anyway thanks for your input as well got anything else to say feel free to do so. |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:33 AM
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#46
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yes. Salmon tastes better raw (if properly fresh).
~J |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:55 AM
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#47
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Ok looked up and read tattoo magic don't see where it is an optional rule at all but it is a metamagical technique so you can't do it till you become an initiate then you need the skill of enchanting, (to make ink) talismongering, (to collect) how about artistry (to draw properly) and lastly the skill of tattooing just to do tattoo magic. Now you need the proper items, the proper enchanting tools, a large enough area of skin to tattoo (centimeters = to the spells force squared x 100) while not excessively large it is a seperate tattoo per spell. Now prepare the ink with the ink then you can tattoo. A lot of work for you to under go plus initiation. Now pay karma to bond the tattoo (tattoo+initiation=alot of karma for the first tattoo). By the time you get the karma for all 3 tattoos I'm what a level 2? 3?initiate? Ok you got a nice body now resist a level 8? 9? powerbolt ouch! |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:56 AM
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#48
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Ahhh food tips do you have the required cooking skill for that? |
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Dec 11 2003, 09:03 AM
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#49
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It's an optional rule, being that t isn't in the core SR3 rule book. All other books (and their contents) are considered to be optional.
The character does not need any of the above except the Tattooing skill and the actual Metamagic itself. He can easily purchase the ingredients necessary from a talismonger. As for the required cooking skill for fresh raw fish... :D |
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Dec 11 2003, 09:17 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 7-December 03 Member No.: 5,883 |
Ok, first of all, I don't think you understand the definition of "power gaming" I intentionally didn't call you a munchkin, because I don't think you are. "Power gaming" just means you pick and choose your stats to create the maximum beneficial effect, it doesn't mean you don't roleplay as well. you openly admitted that you choose charisma because it helps you resist drain, not because you view the character as charismatic. you also said similar things about intelligence. Now, being a powergamer is not a bad thing, I am one myself, but I also understand that just increasing the power of everything across the board is not the answer. Second, if you didn't know about tattooing, you aren't reading the rule books. read MitS before you talk magic please. just like you read M&M before you talk cyberware. You want me to resist a powerbolt? sure, that's what spell defense is for, and shielding. You should have also read that the person casting the spell does not need to be the one tattooing. you can buy all that stuff, it's not like mages get much else to spend money on. lastly, he was making a joke, so none of it really matters.
this explains alot. Palladium's rules system was written to prove two scientific principles: 1: a dozen monkies hitting typewriters randomly can eventually churn out a games system. 2: kevin siembeda needs to die. that system contradicts itself multiple times, as well as having no sense of class balance, or cohesive rules structure. It also has no editors. I proved all of this one day by making a character who had 216 attacks per melee. Comparing shadowrun's chargen to rifts is absurd enough to be worthy of a multiple page essay. if you want me to explain why, I'll email it to you, no sense in bothering these people. On the concept of Metas: you keep mentioning that you're returning it to a previous system of SR rules as if that was a good thing. you don't here computer programers building state of the art computers and installing windows 3.1 on them. you don't see cartographers going back to the Flat-Earth idea. things evolve for a reason, if you want to go back, you're going to need a darn good reason.
wow... have you been checked for OCD? I have characters of all races too, but I don't sit around making sure I have exactly equal numbers of each. I make what I feel like. I never said you didn't make well rounded characters. I am just mildly implying that perhaps you should leave the chargen system up to the professionals. |
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