More work??? Took me about 10 minutes.

As to shapeshifters I was looking at that trying to stay close to the book but think it needs an overhall check out the modifications let me know what ya think.

9 attributes??? um 6 body, quickness, strength, charisma, intelligence, willpower. What other attributes do you pay for???

As to metahumanity you make a good point see the changes made.

Um ok that is a new one to me all the years I played 2nd ed. metas were priority A unless you use the optional rule then they are C. As is stated on p.46 SR2 second column. but hey if you or your gm used C as standard then thats great.

Shapeshifters buy their Mental Attributes once (applicable in both Human and Animal forms), then their Physical Attributes for each form. So it's Body (Human), Body (Animal), Quickness (Human), Quickness (Animal), Strength (Human), Strength (Animall), Charisma (Both), Intelligence (Both), and Willpower (Both). That's nine.

That's what I meant. Our GM just liked metas to be not-rare.

But bears aren't as nimble, dextrous and agile as, say, wolves or pumas. And for an even better comparison, a wild house-cat is a lot more nimble, dextrous and agile than a puma, which is again a lot more nimble, dextrous and agile than a full-grown male lion or a large siberian tiger.

When you're big, you just can't swing your weight around as easily as you could if you were small, even if you're a lot stronger. Overly simplified, if you were twice as tall, you'd have to be 8 times as strong just to be able to move your arm in a 180 degree arc in twice the time. Your weight increases by (height difference)^3, so you need to increase your strength by the same amount just to be able to put your arm into motion at the same speed, but it will still take twice as long to get there.

Which is why I have no trouble with giving Trolls a -1 Quickness, though a 4x Running Mod might be a good idea.

Could you use this system in a Sum-to-Ten fashion? I think S-t-T makes a lot more sense than the basic system, and it sure fixes the Mundane Human vs Mundane Metahuman-problem Glyph mentioned.

I know this from experience. Being so tall in an area where quite a few people are short (Or average, actually), I've learned to be able to "throw my weight around" to keep on balance and avoid knocking into things. I can squirm past most tight spaces, get around people, and generally stay completely on balance when a normal person cannot. (Although those silly things that put you on shifting ground really throw me off)

If the equipment is designed for a Troll, then, yes, I think they should recieve no penalty for it. If it isn't, well, there's the penalty.

...they are. That's why I agreed that a higher running modifier might be in order. Pit a male lion, a cheetah and a pet cat (one in good condition, mind you) against each other in competition to catch a mouse or something else that demands those 3 things I mentioned, and I'd certainly bet on the smallest animal.

That's more a problem in the way certain things that shouldn't use Quickness do. For example, IRL someone's skill at handling pistols and firing them accurately has very little to do with how nimble, dextrous or agile they are. I was one of the best pistol shooters in our platoon, and I'm slow, sluggish, and whatever else a thesaurus gives as autonyms of agile, dextrous and nimble.

Same with armor. Logically someone who is really agile, nimble and dextrous has far more to lose by donning on heavy armor. On the other hand, someone who is by nature quite slow in his movements, but who happens to be really strong and hardy, shouldn't be penalized much for wearing armor.

And, incidentally, I use Body to determine maximum armor, and I compare Body against the weight of the armor, not the armor rating. Pistols I still link to Quickness, if only because there's really nothing else to link it to (Reaction would be too easy on the sammies).

Perhaps it's as simple as saying that trolls have less manual dexterity and an inferior sense of balance. It doesn't have to be because of their size or only to simulate slow movement.

And Quickness isn't?

Sorry, I just felt the need to point that out -- although you're right, I can't think of a better attribute to link it to either.

Although I still hate the whole "linked attribute" nonsense. But that's a different rant on my part.

-Siege

Maybe you should have put more time into it then (I can come up with a crappy chargen system in 10 minutes too, building a good one is what takes effort)

No one else has mentioned spell points, so i will.
50 spell points for a full mage. jimminy christmas! there was a REASON that aspected mages got more than full mages: if you're just a sorcerer, you're probably better at it. a magician used to have to get at least 625,000 nuyen to get up to 50 spell points. that was overkill IMO, but it still meant that they had to put some points/priority into money to keep up. now they're maxed out for free, while aspecteds have to take a high priority (at least 375,000 nuyen) in resources just to keep up. why play an aspected if you have to have B be magic, and A be resources.

and pretty much all you've done is to upgrade everything from the previous priority system. increase skills, atributes and nuyen. if it ain't broke, why fix it?

So then it is your opinion that someone who can only look at the astral plane (astral vision aspected) is better than one who can go there when ever he/she wants to (astral projection full) and have the full force of mana flow through them?

sorry but I disagree a full magical user has a much stronger connection to magic so they should be given more points. as to the 50 I may adjust that to 40 whlie leaveing the cap at 50 but I have not decided.

as to crappy that is why i put it up here to see what people thought so thanks for you opinion.

Ok you have a point with the conjurers although Cha.+magic x 3.5 is only 42 max where as with what I have up there at this points and time every magic type character has the ability to max out at 45 makes it even something that was suggested before.

Next point you say mages could be a problem with the whole idea of Cha. as a source for the starting spell points. I ask why? mages need Cha. for the whole reason of conjuring spirits. I never ever make a full magically active character and then give that character a moderate to low Cha. it is always every time maxed out. I also max out Intell. on all my characters due to the need of points for knowledge skill points & language skill points. As to willpower it to gets maxed on all my magically active characters it just makes sence to me to do so. My firends also max out these three attributes when playing a magically active character. My characters suffer in the physicals because the concept of magically active characters (except for adepts) is that they have ignored their physical for the mental so as to be better at magic. Just like most top deckers who sit in chairs with feeding tubes so the can stay jacked in so it goes for a magically active character you want the Cha. (spirits) Will. (drain) Intell. (know how).

Now as to 55 spell points remember max is 50 and there are better edges to take especially when if they are allowed in your game (they are not in mine) your gm useally will have a max number of points allowed for edges and flaws (or at least I would).

Upped the power. Because it needed it never did have enough points for Attributes heck I was gonna go with max Attributes of A at 36 so that if you took A on Attributes you could max out if you wanted to but I changed my mind. Also I did not raise the max skill points just made them even in the amount the get decreased by as you go down the list so yes most are better but it is more balanced.

As to Dwarfs and Orks never liked thirds Idea (second did it right when you used the optional rule of C) that some metahuman races were easier to be than the others so the increase from D to C is again a balance issue.

Thanks for your question got more feel free to ask I'll do what I can to answer them.

Well here we may be coming to the crux of the problem: you're powergaming. I don't put 6 points into charisma unless the character will be charismatic (strange concept, I know, but stay with me). I also play any character with maxed willpower as being willful, and any character with maxed int as being brilliant. Otherwise it's like making a character with a high strength and playing him weak.

So what you're essentially complaining about in the current priority system is that you can't play a full mage who has full spell points, maxed out all his mental atributes, and still has enough left over to get all his other atributes up to decent amounts, then has enough skill points to max out sorcery, conjuring, and 3 other skills (At the lowest). but you don't like playing dwarves or orks, so those guys should get penalized.
well, lets say you do get more atribute points, all of a sudden you'll have mages with maxed out mental atributes and good physical atributes, but that's ok, because all the Sammies will have enough atribute points to max out willpower so they won't be able to be hit by spells.

Ok I am not power gaming as you say if that is you opinion then your welcome to it but that is not how I see it.

Charisma is for the spirits I conjure as a fully magically active character because this is the only Attribute that matters in conjuring. Now before anyone jumps in yes I know you need other attributes but charisma is the big one in conjuring because it is what is used for drain if you end up knocked out then you either loose the spirit or it kills you not good.

As I stated earlier in this topic all my characters both mundane and magically active have their Intelligences maxed for the sole reason of Knowledge & Language points ALL OF THEM not just the magical ones that is how I play.

Now for Willpower lets see it is used for drain when tossing spells used to resist spells tossed at you and states the max number of spirits you can control so it is an extremely important Attribute and needs to be maxed out.

As to physical Attributes and my system at best a full magically active character would at best get to 3 the average.

As to Skills I take sorcery and conjuring at 6 then all my other Skills are rarely over a 3 although if I feel it is a skill that makes sence for the type of character I am playing then that character will get that Skill or Skills at 4 or 5 sometimes (rarely though) at 6. So no I don't need the Skill points for big bad Skills I need them so as to have several low to average Skills that round out my character for the concept of role-playing and not roll-playing.

I don't like Dwarfs or Orks????? is that why I have 3 of each as characters? Yeah that must be it of course I also have 3 Elves 3 Trolls & 3 Humans see I beleive in balance!!!! As to them getting penalized no they are not I made them equal just like in SHADOWRUN 1ST & 2ND EDITION!!!!!

As to sammies becomeing as your wording implys invulnerable to magic not likely will they have a better ability to defend against spells yes but then again a powerfull spell say 6 or 7 has a chance to drop anyone (same thing goes for the one bullet theory don't ya know). Remember this is a game with dice you don't roll well you die no if ands or buts about it. The only thing that is gonna save your hide if you screw up is the ever powerfull HAND OF GOD.

Oh and by the way seeing as Willpower is the target of most spells guess what other Attribute gets maxed out on all my characters? You guessed right if you said Willpower.

But me a power gamer maybe/maybe not but 2 Attributes maxed out (unless it is a magically active character) in my book does not make me a power gamer. Nor does haveing 2 or 3 (sometimes 4) (very rarely 5) Skills maxed out make me a power gamer.

Anyway thanks for your thoughts maybe one day we can play and then you will see that I work hard to make well rounded characters.

Tattoo ????? is this more of the optional rules that you use????

Gee, I usually max a character's intelligence because I see them as smart. When I see a character as not being so smart, I generally don't max their intelligence. Funny concept, eh?

~J

(Quote edited for excessive punctuation)

Yes, it's an "optional rule", to the extent that any rule presented in a book outside the BBB is an optional rule. It's a variant on Quickening.

~J

I play my characters as smart I have once or twice not maxed out intelligence that is in all the years of playing. It's like when I play Rifts attributes are important but I focus on skills and then I go for as many physical skills that I can get. These skills and/or attributes help to make a well rounded out character for as I said role-playing instead of roll-playing.

But hey like I said that is how I play people like my characters and how I play them.

Anyway thanks for your input as well got anything else to say feel free to do so.

Ok looked up and read tattoo magic don't see where it is an optional rule at all but it is a metamagical technique so you can't do it till you become an initiate then you need the skill of enchanting, (to make ink) talismongering, (to collect) how about artistry (to draw properly) and lastly the skill of tattooing just to do tattoo magic.

Now you need the proper items, the proper enchanting tools, a large enough area of skin to tattoo (centimeters = to the spells force squared x 100) while not excessively large it is a seperate tattoo per spell.

Now prepare the ink with the ink then you can tattoo. A lot of work for you to under go plus initiation.

Now pay karma to bond the tattoo (tattoo+initiation=alot of karma for the first tattoo). By the time you get the karma for all 3 tattoos I'm what a level 2? 3?initiate? Ok you got a nice body now resist a level 8? 9? powerbolt ouch!

Ahhh food tips do you have the required cooking skill for that?

It's an optional rule, being that t isn't in the core SR3 rule book. All other books (and their contents) are considered to be optional.

The character does not need any of the above except the Tattooing skill and the actual Metamagic itself. He can easily purchase the ingredients necessary from a talismonger.

As for the required cooking skill for fresh raw fish...

this explains alot. Palladium's rules system was written to prove two scientific principles:
1: a dozen monkies hitting typewriters randomly can eventually churn out a games system.
2: kevin siembeda needs to die.
that system contradicts itself multiple times, as well as having no sense of class balance, or cohesive rules structure. It also has no editors.
I proved all of this one day by making a character who had 216 attacks per melee.
Comparing shadowrun's chargen to rifts is absurd enough to be worthy of a multiple page essay. if you want me to explain why, I'll email it to you, no sense in bothering these people.

On the concept of Metas: you keep mentioning that you're returning it to a previous system of SR rules as if that was a good thing. you don't here computer programers building state of the art computers and installing windows 3.1 on them. you don't see cartographers going back to the Flat-Earth idea. things evolve for a reason, if you want to go back, you're going to need a darn good reason.

wow... have you been checked for OCD? I have characters of all races too, but I don't sit around making sure I have exactly equal numbers of each. I make what I feel like.

I never said you didn't make well rounded characters. I am just mildly implying that perhaps you should leave the chargen system up to the professionals.