Zolhex
Dec 6 2003, 10:32 PM
My Character Creation System
Priority_Race__Magic_____Attributes__Skills__Resources
A______________________Full Magician_________30______________50_________1,000,000
B__________Shapeshifter__Adept/Aspected______27_______________40__________650,000
C__________Meta/Variant____________________24_______________34__________150,000
D__________Human_________________________21_______________30___________50,000
E_________________________________________18_______________27___________10,000
Shapeshifters as characters: Shapeshifters as either an Adept/Aspected Magician you assign priority C to magic. Also because of a Shapeshifters natural bestial nature during character creation Shapeshifters receive no more than 10,000 in resources no matter what priority is chosen. Shapeshifters start the game with an Essence of 8 and a Magic rating of 8 but only if magically active other wise magic rating is 6. Also you only assign points to physical attributes once then add in human/animal modifiers. Shapeshifters can never get Cyber/Bioware.
GM’S please note there is less than 1% of the world’s population that is known to be Shapeshifters because of this it is suggested you not allow very many players to be Shapeshifters.
Starting Spell Points
Starting spell points have a maxium of 50. Additional spell points cost 15,000 each.
Full Magician_________30
Aspected Magicians___35
Physical Adept________6
Racial Modifications
Race____Modifications
Dwarf___+ 1 Body, + 2 Strength, + 1 Willpower
________Thermographic Vision, Resistance to any disease or toxin
________(+ 2 Body for diseases or toxins resistance tests only)
Elf______+ 1 Quickness, + 2 Charisma
________Low Light Vision
Ork_____+ 3 Body, + 2 Strength, - 1 Charisma, - 1 Intelligence
________Low Light Vision
Troll_____+ 5 Body, -1 Quickness, + 4 Strength, - 2 Charisma, - 2 Intelligence
_________Thermographic Vision, + 1 Reach for Armed/Unarmed combat,
_________Dermal Armor (+ 1 Body for damage resistance tests only)
This post has been edited several times changes will occour from time to time till I am satisfide with it. feel free to chime in and thanks in advance.
Zolhex
Dec 6 2003, 10:34 PM
Ok this was nicely spaced out to be easy to read but apparently these boards don't like spaces.
BumsofTacoma
Dec 6 2003, 10:52 PM
If you were going to modify trolls for anything like that it would be running modifier. The quickness has to do with not just running but over all movment. I think the -1 qui is just to show that maybe there reaction time just isnt what the average is, and maybe has something to do wih a trolls genetics, maybe signals from the brain just arent as fast as the average human. they do have a -2 to intelligence as well, that doesnt mean that they are all retarded, but that they got screwed in the genetics department in that area, and there brains dont develope as well as a human. perhaps Signals arent sent as fast thus the slower reaction time and quickness?
did that make anysense to anyone but me?
Zolhex
Dec 6 2003, 11:04 PM
Um dwarfs have the only running modifier that is different x2 everyone else gets a x3 so if you are thinking that they get a higher or lower running multiplier they don't and as to trolls being less developed I can agree with the mental side of that arguement (althought a - 2 to 2 attributes is a bit much) they are considered to be much more developed physically. But hey that is just how I see it.
Fortune
Dec 6 2003, 11:49 PM
So Trolls, with their overall +5 to Attributes would be the race of choice in your games then? In my opinion, if you are going to take away one of their balancing features, you should replace it with something of equivalent value.
Tanka
Dec 6 2003, 11:56 PM
That's why I liked the way it was in SR2. Every race (except human) had a combined total of 3 modifications.
Dwarf: +1, -1, +2, +0, +0, +1
Elf: +0, +1, +0, +2, +0, +0
Ork: +3, +0, +2, -1, -1, +0
Troll: +5, -1, +4, -2, -2, -1
Metavariants and others don't really count, as those weren't in the base rules.
Glyph
Dec 7 2003, 02:37 AM
Interesting. Most GMs who want to change the power level use the point system and add more points/change a few costs. Changing the Priority system is a lot more work, although it probably makes it easier on the players.
Looking at it game balance-wise:
Shapeshifters get shafted - they are practically unplayable under the Priority system, and even your more generous allocations across the board don't change that much. 26 points (23 if they are awakened in any way) does not go far when you are buying points for 9 Attributes. You seem to want 'shifters to be very rare, though, so you might consider weak 'shifters to be a good thing.
Trolls and elves are priority: C for a reason. It is not so much the total bonuses, but what they get bonuses for. Elves make great full mages, and trolls make fearsome fighting machines. Putting them at Priority: D is giving the players quite a bargain. Try it, though. Maybe with your group, it won't be a problem. If they seem to be picking elves and/or trolls a lot, though, then you might want to look at it again.
You've powered up the Priority system, but you haven't fixed its main problem - a mundane human is screwed over. If you are playing a mundane human, magic and race are D and E. If you are playing a mundane metahuman, race and magic are D and E. So since they cost the same, will you play a human - or play an elf and get +3 in Attribute bonuses?
Tanka
Dec 7 2003, 02:43 AM
My thoughts exactly. Every mudane can now be a metahuman with no worries about losing some points because they had to pick something at a lower priority. Instead they can take Resources A, Attributes B, Skills C, Race D, and Magic E, be a meta, and have no worries.
Edit: Oh, and that's also why I like SR2. Meta is Race C all the time. Race A if you want them to be really rare (and give them another karma pool at chargen). Then their magic stuff is shifted down by one level so as to still allow full mage metas.
BumsofTacoma
Dec 7 2003, 02:44 AM
I dont see where your getting the -2 to skills? I most likely wrote poorly or just didn't understand you. I do both a lot. I over complicate things sometimes.
I was just saying to represent your theory that big people walk faster, that wouldn be quikness as much as it would be running mod.
dwarves have lower running mod because they have short legs, you could argue that a trolls is higher because they have longer legs if you really wanted to.
Yes trolls tend to be superior physically, but, well, I would keep the -1 quickness.
basded on my prior argument.
Maybe the brain is less developed (-2 intelligence) thus the thought proccess slowed, and pehaps even the sending of brain signals to the muscles, thus the -1 quickness.
I only said that again because i was trying to make it more clear incase I previosly wrote poorly.
But hay its only my opinion, to be taken, agreed with, or bashed as you like.
:edited to to poor writing skills
Zolhex
Dec 7 2003, 06:13 AM
QUOTE (Glyph) |
Changing the Priority system is a lot more work
Shapeshifters get shafted
does not go far when you are buying points for 9 Attributes.
Trolls and elves are priority: C for a reason. It is not so much the total bonuses, but what they get bonuses for. Elves make great full mages, and trolls make fearsome fighting machines. |
More work??? Took me about 10 minutes.
As to shapeshifters I was looking at that trying to stay close to the book but think it needs an overhall check out the modifications let me know what ya think.
9 attributes??? um 6 body, quickness, strength, charisma, intelligence, willpower. What other attributes do you pay for???
As to metahumanity you make a good point see the changes made.
Zolhex
Dec 7 2003, 06:21 AM
QUOTE (tanka) |
Oh, and that's also why I like SR2. Meta is Race C all the time. Race A if you want them to be really rare |
Um ok that is a new one to me all the years I played 2nd ed. metas were priority A unless you use the optional rule then they are C. As is stated on p.46 SR2 second column. but hey if you or your gm used C as standard then thats great.
Ol' Scratch
Dec 7 2003, 06:35 AM
QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
9 attributes??? um 6 body, quickness, strength, charisma, intelligence, willpower. What other attributes do you pay for??? |
Shapeshifters buy their Mental Attributes once (applicable in both Human and Animal forms), then their Physical Attributes for each form. So it's Body (Human), Body (Animal), Quickness (Human), Quickness (Animal), Strength (Human), Strength (Animall), Charisma (Both), Intelligence (Both), and Willpower (Both). That's nine.
Zolhex
Dec 7 2003, 06:57 AM
Wow they screwed shapeshifters in 3rd didn't know that mostly play by core rules so had not read up on shapeshifters. not only do you have to pay for physical attributes twice they lowered some of the bonuses dam!!!!!!!!! thanks for the heads up.
Tanka
Dec 7 2003, 12:41 PM
QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
QUOTE (tanka @ Dec 6 2003, 09:43 PM) | Oh, and that's also why I like SR2. Meta is Race C all the time. Race A if you want them to be really rare |
Um ok that is a new one to me all the years I played 2nd ed. metas were priority A unless you use the optional rule then they are C. As is stated on p.46 SR2 second column. but hey if you or your gm used C as standard then thats great.
|
That's what I meant. Our GM just liked metas to be not-rare.
Lilt
Dec 7 2003, 02:54 PM
Hmm. I like the idea of trolls being slightly faster runners than their quickness attribute represents. Would a x4 running multiplier be that bad? What about x3.5?
BumsofTacoma
Dec 7 2003, 03:07 PM
sounds good to me man, 3.5 would do, but hay, dwarves get shafted a full point so why shouldnt trolls get a full point
Lilt
Dec 7 2003, 03:24 PM
The x3.5 was just a suggestion for if people thought x4 was too much. IMHO: I don't know.
Should maximum quickness trolls really be faster than maximum quickness humans, elves or orcs? Actually I think I'll say yes as bears and such are faster than humans and they're big...
Austere Emancipator
Dec 7 2003, 04:28 PM
QUOTE (Lilt) |
Actually I think I'll say yes as bears and such are faster than humans and they're big... |
But bears aren't as nimble, dextrous and agile as, say, wolves or pumas. And for an even better comparison, a wild house-cat is a lot more nimble, dextrous and agile than a puma, which is again a lot more nimble, dextrous and agile than a full-grown male lion or a large siberian tiger.
When you're big, you just can't swing your weight around as easily as you could if you were small, even if you're a lot stronger. Overly simplified, if you were twice as tall, you'd have to be 8 times as strong just to be able to move your arm in a 180 degree arc in twice the time. Your weight increases by (height difference)^3, so you need to increase your strength by the same amount just to be able to put your arm into motion at the same speed, but it will still take twice as long to get there.
Which is why I have no trouble with giving Trolls a -1 Quickness, though a 4x Running Mod might be a good idea.
Could you use this system in a Sum-to-Ten fashion? I think S-t-T makes a lot more sense than the basic system, and it sure fixes the Mundane Human vs Mundane Metahuman-problem Glyph mentioned.
Zolhex
Dec 7 2003, 06:41 PM
Ok speaking on the concept of big cats vs. small cats if size does matter then how do you explain cheetahs? you know the fastest cat of them all. just a comparison of big vs. small like you were doing.
Ol' Scratch
Dec 7 2003, 06:50 PM
Trolls are the dwarfs of giantdom. Check out their picture; their legs are relatively short and stubby compared to the rest of them, just like a dwarf. That's why their Running Modifier is only x3; the equivalence of a human. If they were proportional to a human, they'd likely have a x4 or possibly higher Running Multiplier.
I don't think they should also be penalized with a Quickness penalty, however. While they may be slow at movement, I don't see why their actual manual dexterity would be any worse, especially when using tools and equipment of the appopriate size and design (hence the +25% cost increase). Larger people also tend to have a superior ability to maneuver around because they're much more aware of their spatial problems. While a normal sized person can walk easily through a hall, a large person like a troll can do the same, but is subconsciously moving his body in such a way so as not to disturb anything as he does so.
Applying a penalty when trying to perform actions not designed for trolls makes a lot more sense to me, but not when using things as appropriate to their size. I don't see why they'd have any more trouble aiming a pistol or, especially, wearing armor; an average troll takes a Combat Pool hit just by putting on some Armored Clothing.
Tanka
Dec 7 2003, 06:58 PM
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
...Larger people also tend to have a superior ability to maneuver around because they're much more aware of their spatial problems. While a normal sized person can walk easily through a hall, a large person like a troll can do the same, but is subconsciously moving his body in such a way so as not to disturb anything as he does so... |
I know this from experience. Being so tall in an area where quite a few people are short (Or average, actually), I've learned to be able to "throw my weight around" to keep on balance and avoid knocking into things. I can squirm past most tight spaces, get around people, and generally stay completely on balance when a normal person cannot. (Although those silly things that put you on shifting ground really throw me off)
If the equipment is designed for a Troll, then, yes, I think they should recieve no penalty for it. If it isn't, well, there's the penalty.
Austere Emancipator
Dec 7 2003, 07:01 PM
I was specifically not addressing the movement speed of those animals, only how...
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
nimble, dextrous and agile |
...they are. That's why I agreed that a higher running modifier might be in order. Pit a male lion, a cheetah and a pet cat (one in good condition, mind you) against each other in competition to catch a mouse or something else that demands those 3 things I mentioned, and I'd certainly bet on the smallest animal.
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
I don't see why they'd have any more trouble aiming a pistol or, especially, wearing armor; an average troll takes a Combat Pool hit just by putting on some Armored Clothing. |
That's more a problem in the way certain things that shouldn't use Quickness do. For example, IRL someone's skill at handling pistols and firing them accurately has very little to do with how nimble, dextrous or agile they are. I was one of the best pistol shooters in our platoon, and I'm slow, sluggish, and whatever else a thesaurus gives as autonyms of agile, dextrous and nimble.
Same with armor. Logically someone who is really agile, nimble and dextrous has far more to lose by donning on heavy armor. On the other hand, someone who is by nature quite slow in his movements, but who happens to be really strong and hardy, shouldn't be penalized much for wearing armor.
And, incidentally, I use Body to determine maximum armor, and I compare Body against the weight of the armor, not the armor rating. Pistols I still link to Quickness, if only because there's really nothing else to link it to (Reaction would be too easy on the sammies).
Zazen
Dec 8 2003, 08:04 PM
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
I don't think they should also be penalized with a Quickness penalty, however. While they may be slow at movement, I don't see why their actual manual dexterity would be any worse... |
Perhaps it's as simple as saying that trolls have less manual dexterity and an inferior sense of balance. It doesn't have to be because of their size or only to simulate slow movement.
CoalHeart
Dec 8 2003, 09:12 PM
On a side note of the previous talking about trolls should get an extra multiplyer on thier running.
I say no. They already have the potential to be the fastest runners around for the least amount of Karma. They have the highest Body which means they can raise athletics to the very highest most efficently if you look at it from a karma cost point of view. Not to mention they'll have ungodly running endurance, several miles probably before they even start to get tired.
So I don't think they need a running speed bonus multiplyer.
P.S.
Also would affect jumping, lifting, swimming and various other athletic activities.
Edited to add P.S.
Siege
Dec 8 2003, 09:15 PM
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
Pistols I still link to Quickness, if only because there's really nothing else to link it to (Reaction would be too easy on the sammies). |
And Quickness isn't?
Sorry, I just felt the need to point that out -- although you're right, I can't think of a better attribute to link it to either.
Although I still hate the whole "linked attribute" nonsense. But that's a different rant on my part.
-Siege
Yum Donuts
Dec 10 2003, 02:54 AM
QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 6 2003, 09:37 PM) | Changing the Priority system is a lot more work
|
More work??? Took me about 10 minutes.
|
Maybe you should have put more time into it then (I can come up with a crappy chargen system in 10 minutes too, building a good one is what takes effort)
No one else has mentioned spell points, so i will.
50 spell points for a full mage. jimminy christmas! there was a REASON that aspected mages got more than full mages: if you're just a sorcerer, you're probably better at it. a magician used to have to get at least 625,000 nuyen to get up to 50 spell points. that was overkill IMO, but it still meant that they had to put some points/priority into money to keep up. now they're maxed out for free, while aspecteds have to take a high priority (at least 375,000 nuyen) in resources just to keep up. why play an aspected if you have to have B be magic, and A be resources.
and pretty much all you've done is to upgrade everything from the previous priority system. increase skills, atributes and nuyen. if it ain't broke, why fix it?
Zolhex
Dec 10 2003, 05:16 AM
QUOTE (Yum Donuts @ Dec 9 2003, 09:54 PM) |
jimminy christmas! there was a REASON that aspected mages got more than full mages: if you're just a sorcerer, you're probably better at it. |
So then it is your opinion that someone who can only look at the astral plane (astral vision aspected) is better than one who can go there when ever he/she wants to (astral projection full) and have the full force of mana flow through them?
sorry but I disagree a full magical user has a much stronger connection to magic so they should be given more points. as to the 50 I may adjust that to 40 whlie leaveing the cap at 50 but I have not decided.
as to crappy that is why i put it up here to see what people thought so thanks for you opinion.
TinkerGnome
Dec 10 2003, 05:26 AM
The point in giving the greater number of spellpoints to aspected magicians is to allow them to excel at their area of expertise. An aspected sorcerer is likely to be better at spellcasting than a full mage, just as an aspected conjurer is likely to be better at conjuration than a full mage. The full mage beats them both, hands down, when it comes to more fully rounded view of magic (and the combos available in spells + spirits are not to be underestimated).
In-game the groggies don't get much benefit over the full mage in terms of learning theif craft, so it has to come at character generation if you want the "limited but good at what they do" description to hold.
Zolhex
Dec 10 2003, 05:39 AM
thats all well and good but the fact is that in no way shape or form can a full mage max out under the priority system that in my book SUCKS I so enjoyed haveing a shit load of spells at charater creation and all at a level that they were usefull. I maen 10 level 5 spells at the start cool even better 12 level 4's and one level 2 bitchin. and seeing as they can start with spirits the greater spell points give them the ability to be what they were supposed to be bad asses that get screwed due to limited karma in a game session
But again my opinion you say reduce ok so give me an example that is benificial to both types of magic users.
Yum Donuts
Dec 10 2003, 07:13 AM
Ok, so if you love starting with lots of spells as a full mage, don't you think a sorcery adept, someone whose only goal is to cast spells, would want to start with a full load? but no, we won't give it to him.
You're still hitting the point that if I want to be someone who just does sorcery, I should just take a full mage aspect and then not put any skill in conjuring, and never astrally project, then I could use B for atributes (the other thing mages need lots of).
At the very least, aspecteds should be equal.
But the solution I found that works is to lower the cost of spell points. 25000 is an insane amount to pay for a spell point. that means a level 6 spell costs 150,000. that's more than a cyberarm, plus the point/priority expenditure you have to pay to be magical.
In our group, we lower spell point cost to 15,000. that helps out alot, and could probably be altered a bit more. now a full mage needs only 325,000 to max out, and an aspected needs 225.
And your point about mages buying spirits is silly. why pay 25,000 per force for an elemental when you can summon it in game for 1,000 per point? when you finish chargen, you keep 10% of whatever nuyen you have leftover, right? that's still 2,500 per point, so you're still coming out ahead to save your money and summon them in game. And if you're a shaman, then all your spirits go away with the next sunrise/set.
Prospero
Dec 10 2003, 07:31 AM
On the other hand, conjurors probably do come out better than full magicians in chargen. They don't need all those points to buy spells, so they can use them for other things like (if your GM allows it) ally spirits or initiation which, in effect, makes them more powerful in their field than full mages who just aren't going to have the points to spend on that at chargen.
Granted, that still doesn't fix the sorcerer's or other spellcasting groggies' problems. For them, I think they should get exactly the same spell points as a full magician. I'd certainly allow it in my campaign. They drop versatility and already gain something back - a higher priority to use for something else. All other things being equal, they should get the same power level as a full mage. They're not less powerful at all - just less well rounded.
Yum Donuts
Dec 10 2003, 04:40 PM
Well think about this: if you wanted to make a conjuring adept, it's still better (by the rules here) to make a full mage and just never use sorcery or astral projection, than to make a conjuring adept. when you compare the two, you have to think what kind of conjuring adept you could make out of being a full mage, and then compare those two.
TinkerGnome
Dec 10 2003, 08:26 PM
Astral projection alone is worth the priority shift, really. If you really want to have maxed out full mages, I'd look at lowering the cost of spell points as Yum Donuts suggested instead of changing the current balance. The loss of spirits or spells (and thus banishment or spell defense) is also a big deal and not one to be taken lightly.
Zolhex
Dec 10 2003, 08:53 PM
Ok made some changes look it over too much too little what?
Yum Donuts
Dec 10 2003, 09:34 PM
Interesting... that is a bit better, but I would ask what a conjuring adept needs willpower for (granted it's the linked atribute for conjuring, but they never actually use it). maybe Cha+Magic x3.5 just a thought.
I would also warn you that you'll get things I don't think you want with mages now feeling obliged to max out their charisma for the same reason that every sammy on the planet maxes out intelligence. it has nothing to do with in-character abilities, but numbers-wise, who can afford not to?
I'd also point out that an elven mage with exceptional atribute in int or charisma could get 55 spell points, if that worries you.
You're going to end up with alot of people who otherwise might not make all their stats super high who feel they have to just to get enough spells to actually be useful.
Bölverk
Dec 10 2003, 09:40 PM
It still looks to me like you've basically gone and upped the power level across the board (well, except for penalizing dwarfs and orks by increasing their priority). Maybe you wrote this and I missed it, but could you explain why you find it necessary to do this?
Zolhex
Dec 10 2003, 11:08 PM
QUOTE (Yum Donuts) |
Interesting... that is a bit better, but I would ask what a conjuring adept needs willpower for (granted it's the linked atribute for conjuring, but they never actually use it). maybe Cha+Magic x3.5 just a thought. I would also warn you that you'll get things I don't think you want with mages now feeling obliged to max out their charisma for the same reason that every sammy on the planet maxes out intelligence. it has nothing to do with in-character abilities, but numbers-wise, who can afford not to? I'd also point out that an elven mage with exceptional atribute in int or charisma could get 55 spell points, if that worries you. You're going to end up with alot of people who otherwise might not make all their stats super high who feel they have to just to get enough spells to actually be useful. |
Ok you have a point with the conjurers although Cha.+magic x 3.5 is only 42 max where as with what I have up there at this points and time every magic type character has the ability to max out at 45 makes it even something that was suggested before.
Next point you say mages could be a problem with the whole idea of Cha. as a source for the starting spell points. I ask why? mages need Cha. for the whole reason of conjuring spirits. I never ever make a full magically active character and then give that character a moderate to low Cha. it is always every time maxed out. I also max out Intell. on all my characters due to the need of points for knowledge skill points & language skill points. As to willpower it to gets maxed on all my magically active characters it just makes sence to me to do so. My firends also max out these three attributes when playing a magically active character. My characters suffer in the physicals because the concept of magically active characters (except for adepts) is that they have ignored their physical for the mental so as to be better at magic. Just like most top deckers who sit in chairs with feeding tubes so the can stay jacked in so it goes for a magically active character you want the Cha. (spirits) Will. (drain) Intell. (know how).
Now as to 55 spell points remember max is 50 and there are better edges to take especially when if they are allowed in your game (they are not in mine) your gm useally will have a max number of points allowed for edges and flaws (or at least I would).
Zolhex
Dec 10 2003, 11:17 PM
QUOTE (Bölverk) |
It still looks to me like you've basically gone and upped the power level across the board (well, except for penalizing dwarfs and orks by increasing their priority). Maybe you wrote this and I missed it, but could you explain why you find it necessary to do this? |
Upped the power. Because it needed it never did have enough points for Attributes heck I was gonna go with max Attributes of A at 36 so that if you took A on Attributes you could max out if you wanted to but I changed my mind. Also I did not raise the max skill points just made them even in the amount the get decreased by as you go down the list so yes most are better but it is more balanced.
As to Dwarfs and Orks never liked thirds Idea (second did it right when you used the optional rule of C) that some metahuman races were easier to be than the others so the increase from D to C is again a balance issue.
Thanks for your question got more feel free to ask I'll do what I can to answer them.
Yum Donuts
Dec 11 2003, 03:29 AM
QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
I never ever make a full magically active character and then give that character a moderate to low Cha. it is always every time maxed out. I also max out Intell. on all my characters due to the need of points for knowledge skill points & language skill points. As to willpower it to gets maxed on all my magically active characters it just makes sence to me to do so. |
Well here we may be coming to the crux of the problem: you're powergaming. I don't put 6 points into charisma unless the character will be charismatic (strange concept, I know, but stay with me). I also play any character with maxed willpower as being willful, and any character with maxed int as being brilliant. Otherwise it's like making a character with a high strength and playing him weak.
So what you're essentially complaining about in the current priority system is that you can't play a full mage who has full spell points, maxed out all his mental atributes, and still has enough left over to get all his other atributes up to decent amounts, then has enough skill points to max out sorcery, conjuring, and 3 other skills (At the lowest). but you don't like playing dwarves or orks, so those guys should get penalized.
well, lets say you do get more atribute points, all of a sudden you'll have mages with maxed out mental atributes and good physical atributes, but that's ok, because all the Sammies will have enough atribute points to max out willpower so they won't be able to be hit by spells.
Tanka
Dec 11 2003, 03:35 AM
This then means that all Mages will Tattoo +Str, +Qui, +Bod, and all the rest on themselves so that way they can further surpass the mundanes. Then the poor Street Sammies will have to learn to snipe from a distance further than Detect (Enemies) will work.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Zolhex
Dec 11 2003, 08:14 AM
QUOTE (Yum Donuts) |
Well here we may be coming to the crux of the problem: you're powergaming. I don't put 6 points into charisma unless the character will be charismatic (strange concept, I know, but stay with me). I also play any character with maxed willpower as being willful, and any character with maxed int as being brilliant. Otherwise it's like making a character with a high strength and playing him weak.
So what you're essentially complaining about in the current priority system is that you can't play a full mage who has full spell points, maxed out all his mental atributes, and still has enough left over to get all his other atributes up to decent amounts, then has enough skill points to max out sorcery, conjuring, and 3 other skills (At the lowest). but you don't like playing dwarves or orks, so those guys should get penalized. well, lets say you do get more atribute points, all of a sudden you'll have mages with maxed out mental atributes and good physical atributes, but that's ok, because all the Sammies will have enough atribute points to max out willpower so they won't be able to be hit by spells. |
Ok I am not power gaming as you say if that is you opinion then your welcome to it but that is not how I see it.
Charisma is for the spirits I conjure as a fully magically active character because this is the only Attribute that matters in conjuring. Now before anyone jumps in yes I know you need other attributes but charisma is the big one in conjuring because it is what is used for drain if you end up knocked out then you either loose the spirit or it kills you not good.
As I stated earlier in this topic all my characters both mundane and magically active have their Intelligences maxed for the sole reason of Knowledge & Language points ALL OF THEM not just the magical ones that is how I play.
Now for Willpower lets see it is used for drain when tossing spells used to resist spells tossed at you and states the max number of spirits you can control so it is an extremely important Attribute and needs to be maxed out.
As to physical Attributes and my system at best a full magically active character would at best get to 3 the average.
As to Skills I take sorcery and conjuring at 6 then all my other Skills are rarely over a 3 although if I feel it is a skill that makes sence for the type of character I am playing then that character will get that Skill or Skills at 4 or 5 sometimes (rarely though) at 6. So no I don't need the Skill points for big bad Skills I need them so as to have several low to average Skills that round out my character for the concept of role-playing and not roll-playing.
I don't like Dwarfs or Orks????? is that why I have 3 of each as characters? Yeah that must be it of course I also have 3 Elves 3 Trolls & 3 Humans see I beleive in balance!!!! As to them getting penalized no they are not I made them equal just like in SHADOWRUN 1ST & 2ND EDITION!!!!!
As to sammies becomeing as your wording implys invulnerable to magic not likely will they have a better ability to defend against spells yes but then again a powerfull spell say 6 or 7 has a chance to drop anyone (same thing goes for the one bullet theory don't ya know). Remember this is a game with dice you don't roll well you die no if ands or buts about it. The only thing that is gonna save your hide if you screw up is the ever powerfull HAND OF GOD.
Oh and by the way seeing as Willpower is the target of most spells guess what other Attribute gets maxed out on all my characters? You guessed right if you said Willpower.
But me a power gamer maybe/maybe not but 2 Attributes maxed out (unless it is a magically active character) in my book does not make me a power gamer. Nor does haveing 2 or 3 (sometimes 4) (very rarely 5) Skills maxed out make me a power gamer.
Anyway thanks for your thoughts maybe one day we can play and then you will see that I work hard to make well rounded characters.
Zolhex
Dec 11 2003, 08:17 AM
QUOTE (tanka) |
This then means that all Mages will Tattoo +Str, +Qui, +Bod, |
Tattoo ????? is this more of the optional rules that you use????
Kagetenshi
Dec 11 2003, 08:18 AM
QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
As I stated earlier in this topic all my characters both mundane and magically active have their Intelligences maxed for the sole reason of Knowledge & Language points ALL OF THEM not just the magical ones that is how I play. |
Gee, I usually max a character's intelligence because I see them as smart. When I see a character as not being so smart, I generally don't max their intelligence. Funny concept, eh?
~J
Kagetenshi
Dec 11 2003, 08:20 AM
QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
QUOTE (tanka @ Dec 10 2003, 10:35 PM) | This then means that all Mages will Tattoo +Str, +Qui, +Bod, |
Tattoo? is this more of the optional rules that you use?
|
(Quote edited for excessive punctuation)
Yes, it's an "optional rule", to the extent that any rule presented in a book outside the BBB is an optional rule. It's a variant on Quickening.
~J
Zolhex
Dec 11 2003, 08:28 AM
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 11 2003, 03:18 AM) |
Gee, I usually max a character's intelligence because I see them as smart. When I see a character as not being so smart, I generally don't max their intelligence. Funny concept, eh?
~J |
I play my characters as smart I have once or twice not maxed out intelligence that is in all the years of playing. It's like when I play Rifts attributes are important but I focus on skills and then I go for as many physical skills that I can get. These skills and/or attributes help to make a well rounded out character for as I said role-playing instead of roll-playing.
But hey like I said that is how I play people like my characters and how I play them.
Anyway thanks for your input as well got anything else to say feel free to do so.
Kagetenshi
Dec 11 2003, 08:33 AM
Yes. Salmon tastes better raw (if properly fresh).
~J
Zolhex
Dec 11 2003, 08:55 AM
QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
Yes, it's an "optional rule", to the extent that any rule presented in a book outside the BBB is an optional rule. It's a variant on Quickening.
~J |
Ok looked up and read tattoo magic don't see where it is an optional rule at all but it is a metamagical technique so you can't do it till you become an initiate then you need the skill of enchanting, (to make ink) talismongering, (to collect) how about artistry (to draw properly) and lastly the skill of tattooing just to do tattoo magic.
Now you need the proper items, the proper enchanting tools, a large enough area of skin to tattoo (centimeters = to the spells force squared x 100) while not excessively large it is a seperate tattoo per spell.
Now prepare the ink with the ink then you can tattoo. A lot of work for you to under go plus initiation.
Now pay karma to bond the tattoo (tattoo+initiation=alot of karma for the first tattoo). By the time you get the karma for all 3 tattoos I'm what a level 2? 3?initiate? Ok you got a nice body now resist a level 8? 9? powerbolt ouch!
Zolhex
Dec 11 2003, 08:56 AM
QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
Yes. Salmon tastes better raw (if properly fresh).
~J |
Ahhh food tips do you have the required cooking skill for that?
Fortune
Dec 11 2003, 09:03 AM
QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F. @ Dec 11 2003, 07:55 PM) |
Ok looked up and read tattoo magic don't see where it is an optional rule at all... |
It's an optional rule, being that t isn't in the core SR3 rule book. All other books (and their contents) are considered to be optional.
QUOTE |
but it is a metamagical technique so you can't do it till you become an initiate then you need the skill of enchanting, (to make ink) talismongering, (to collect) how about artistry (to draw properly) and lastly the skill of tattooing just to do tattoo magic. |
The character does not need any of the above except the Tattooing skill and the actual Metamagic itself. He can easily purchase the ingredients necessary from a talismonger.
As for the required
cooking skill for fresh
raw fish...
Yum Donuts
Dec 11 2003, 09:17 AM
Ok, first of all, I don't think you understand the definition of "power gaming" I intentionally didn't call you a munchkin, because I don't think you are. "Power gaming" just means you pick and choose your stats to create the maximum beneficial effect, it doesn't mean you don't roleplay as well. you openly admitted that you choose charisma because it helps you resist drain, not because you view the character as charismatic. you also said similar things about intelligence. Now, being a powergamer is not a bad thing, I am one myself, but I also understand that just increasing the power of everything across the board is not the answer.
Second, if you didn't know about tattooing, you aren't reading the rule books. read MitS before you talk magic please. just like you read M&M before you talk cyberware.
You want me to resist a powerbolt? sure, that's what spell defense is for, and shielding.
You should have also read that the person casting the spell does not need to be the one tattooing. you can buy all that stuff, it's not like mages get much else to spend money on.
lastly, he was making a joke, so none of it really matters.
this explains alot. Palladium's rules system was written to prove two scientific principles:
1: a dozen monkies hitting typewriters randomly can eventually churn out a games system.
2: kevin siembeda needs to die.
that system contradicts itself multiple times, as well as having no sense of class balance, or cohesive rules structure. It also has no editors.
I proved all of this one day by making a character who had 216 attacks per melee.
Comparing shadowrun's chargen to rifts is absurd enough to be worthy of a multiple page essay. if you want me to explain why, I'll email it to you, no sense in bothering these people.
On the concept of Metas: you keep mentioning that you're returning it to a previous system of SR rules as if that was a good thing. you don't here computer programers building state of the art computers and installing windows 3.1 on them. you don't see cartographers going back to the Flat-Earth idea. things evolve for a reason, if you want to go back, you're going to need a darn good reason.
QUOTE |
I don't like Dwarfs or Orks????? is that why I have 3 of each as characters? Yeah that must be it of course I also have 3 Elves 3 Trolls & 3 Humans see I beleive in balance!!!! |
wow... have you been checked for OCD? I have characters of all races too, but I don't sit around making sure I have exactly equal numbers of each. I make what I feel like.
I never said you didn't make well rounded characters. I am just mildly implying that perhaps you should leave the chargen system up to the professionals.