 Character Creation System, Just a few thoughts |
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 Dec 11 2003, 09:51 AM
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#51
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters  Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798  |
The only time an optional rule is considered optional by me and those I game with is if it says optional rule before outlineing what the rule is. As to you theory on not needing the skills I listed and that tattooing is all that is needed aside from the metamagical technique your wrong. Tattooing needed. Enchanting needed. Talismongering helpfull but yes you can buy the radicals. Artistry to draw. As stated in the text third paragraph p. 78 mits under tattoo magic first sentance.
If for some reason you think I am wrong as to enchanting please read p.78 mits under tattoo magic last sentence of the first paragraph.
As to the cooking skill seemed right seeing as it was put as
so cooking as to prep it other wise i'd would have said fishing.
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Dec 11 2003, 09:59 AM
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#52
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The artist. Not necessarily the mage. You can hire someone for that part.
~J |
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Dec 11 2003, 10:15 AM
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#53
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
E.O.T.L.F - if I may ask something. This is going to sound insulting - please don't take it that way, becaue I don't mean it in that light. But I honestly have difficulty reading your posts because they only have punctuation at the end of the paragraph. Using some punctuation will improve your argument. Thank you and I apologize if that sounds insulting - I truly don't mean it to be.
As to the chargen issues: If you have a character with 6 in Sorcery, Conjuring, and whatever else you want, plus all the spells you want, plus all the attributes you want... Why are you playing the character anymore? I work and sweat for the karma to buy all those things when I play a character. When I have everything that I could want with the character, I start to look towards retirement. If there's great roleplay still going on with the character, okay, he can stay around, but in terms of advancement... I'd rather make a new character who has faults and difficulties and has to scramble to improve himself and his lot in life. Granted, for magic-types there's always initiation and always another magical bad-ass who's badder than you are, but ubermagical threat of the week gets a little tiring after a while, don't you think? |
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Dec 11 2003, 10:28 AM
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#54
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Ok my misunderstanding sorry and i'll concede to being a power gamer I guess at least as you explain it. Actually I have read mits but I was unsure of tattoo and it's classification of rule till I rechecked it and found out it was just a metamagical thing. As to having someone else do the tattooing read my other post where it states the requirements for tattoo magic. As to Rifts and compareing it to Shadowrun I was not doing that I was just stateing I make characters for games useing the rules to the best of my ability to make a character that can survive. In another post on this site some are saying that starting magically active characters could die easier this is true to a point so I build one that if I roll good it will survive because of spells and spirits. A darn good reason lets see the reason given in first and second was pretty good metahumans are not very excessive in the sixth world (at least not yet) and I do not see that ten years could change that all that much so as to make Dwarfs and Orks more available than Elves and Trolls. So going backwards yes but in this case it seems right. As to computer programers and cartographers your right but then again they don't go out and write a new version of something just to please themselves. WHILE I have no proof that is what happened when Mullville? took over I would love to here Dowds thoughts on this new layout for metahumans seeing as he was involved with the first two editions. As to ocd sorry no not me I just like to have the same number of races. I also make what I feel like And what I feel like playing is all the different races so I create an even amount of each race in order to have a bigger selection to choose from. I did leave the chargen system up to the professionals they screwed it up to a certian point they themselves fixed somethings that were not broken. |
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Dec 11 2003, 10:42 AM
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#55
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Ok sorry if I have missed some punctuation need to learn to sleep more either that or invent the sleep regulator. As to what to do with my charcater if I start out with alot of stuff ok lets see: Attributes taken to 1.5 x racial max. Skills you can never have enough skills there is alway some skill you will find a need for from time to time. then there is inproving your skills you do have. Also I don't start initiated so there is that as well as creating an ally. So lots to work on with a magically active character. |
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Dec 11 2003, 03:51 PM
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#56
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
You're right, partially, and so is the rest of the crew. It does require Enchanting and Tattooing skills. However, nowhere does it say that you must roll the dice. You can get a professional tattoo artist who also, strangely enough, happens to be able to Enchant. It mentions the Yakuza using this a lot. How many Yakuza members do you think are magically active? Probably not enough to say that they each do their own. |
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Dec 11 2003, 04:15 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
For that matter how often do you think you will find an artist among the Yakuza ranks? Especially being the rigious training required to do art in Japan.
All professional artists(no longer true for cartoonists and a few other professions) are trained classicly, meaning more than a year just for the first stroke type of the brush... I really don't see any Yakua having set aside chunks of their lives to learn to draw.. |
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Dec 11 2003, 07:13 PM
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#58
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Ok the artistry skill was complementary to tattooing. I did concede and say that for what you (and yes someone else) were doing tattooing skill would be enough. Yes I do relize that there are few who know how in the yakuza but if you don't know how to do it yourself then your gonna have to find someone to do it that won't be easy. Also you spend the karma to bond the tattoo that is gonna take awhile to earn. At the same time I earn the same karma I use it to increase my physicals through running weight lifting ect.ect.. You get a tattoo or 3 now we meet in the shadows for some reason spirit vs. spirit while that is going on I get lucky and disspell your tattoos. Oops your powered down till you can rebond by which time in useing my karma to improve I far surpass you when we meet again. Tattoo magic is neat but it can be disspelled major drawback but hey you want it go for it as I said I'll take the training method.
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Dec 11 2003, 07:30 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 7-December 03 Member No.: 5,883 |
do you think about what you say before you speak? not to sound insulting, but seriously. ok, you and I walk up in the street, you move to dispell one of my 3 tatoos, say Increased Willpower (4), and I put 6 karma into bonding it. now it is effectively force 12 to dispell, and knowing this, you use that high sorcery skill and spell pool you've racked up, and you manage to dispell it. and then you realize you have no spell defense dice alocated, and I kill you with a fireball, or a powerbolt. do you realize how long it would take to dispell 3 tattooed spells? what do you think I'm going to be doing while you do that? I'm going to be shooting you with an assault rifle, or throwing grenades at you. I might just as well say "so you put your karma into skills and such, then our characters meet, and I get lucky and shoot you in the head. now you're less powerful because you're dead." |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:03 PM
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#60
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Yum is right, completely.
Now take this. Not only does he have all thost things Tattooed, but he also is a very large Troll, meaning he can still fit some on himself. Barrier, Bullet Barrier, and Mana Barrier seem to come to mind. What now? You sit there and stare at him as you can't figure out why the frag you can't touch him physically or magically. |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:08 PM
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#61
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Unless he has Masking and a hell of a lot of Initiate Grades, he's going to have a heck of a time getting past even minor wards without tripping the alarms. Such characters are more of a liability on anything beyond a smash-and-grab run than an asset.
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Dec 11 2003, 08:15 PM
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#62
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Tell Sphynx that ;)
~J |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:16 PM
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#63
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
So? We're going on the "what-ifs," not the actual things that could happen.
I mean, hell, E.O.T.L.F. said he just dispelled three tattoes, which probably have a dispelling force of 12. |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:43 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 7-December 03 Member No.: 5,883 |
Without the subject of the tatoos noticing, no less, and without taking drain, and without... oh I give up. The chargen system proposed here is lousy. that's the end result. feel free to go off on other topics, but as far as I'm concerned the main topic has been adressed. the system is just a power upgrade, is very unbalanced, and was made without a comprehensive grasp of A: the rules, B: roleplaying, or C: how the world works when playing shadowrun. |
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Dec 11 2003, 11:54 PM
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#65
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
No offence but I think Yum just does not like what I put up here because of where I placed all metas. I say that Yum because it seems you are the biggest oppisition to having all the meta races equal the way they were ten game years ago. As I said before I can't see ten years giving Dwarfs & Orks a large enough lead so as to reduce their availabilty. But that is the case as per the concepts of third edition so what by 2070 you can be priority E for Dwarf, Ork & human? From there in 2080 it's priority E for all races? Seems to me that this is off I mean every ten years (that seems to be the scale) metas increase in dominance. So if we keep to that progression then by what 2090? 2100? humans become priority A because they are so rare? Also why Dwarfs & Orks? Elves & Dwarfs were here first then came the Orks & Trolls plus Orks & Trolls live shorter life spans (humans are not far behind). If anything would happen the world be over run by Elves & Dwarfs not Dwarfs & Orks (the Orks having the shortest life span of all races).
So Yum any thoughts? Also Yum you maybe right as to powering up the Attributes, Skills & Resources and I may make further changes that is why I posted on here. It is looking as though most people who have chimed in have said that the only real problems are that humans get screwed so lets work to gether to fix that. Now I DO NOT belive that if we as gamers come up with something that is better balanced for all races and all character types that Fanpro nor Wizkids will listen but could it hurt to try? I mean think about it even Adam has said on these boards that it has been what 5 years sence the last overhaul and that that it is considered a long time in this industry. You have to figure that one or more of the powers that be have had the thought to move on to 4th edition (which sucks as far as I am concerned but will happen sooner or later). So why not try and come up with something they might look at? |
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Dec 12 2003, 12:02 AM
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#66
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Actually, eventually, the UGE and Goblinizing just evens out, so, after a time, you can be any race without picking a Priority. This takes a while, however.
With the way I'm remembering; Orks (Or is it Trolls? Correct me) breed in litters. With their short lifespan, the litters die off faster than a Human being born. This makes even more equality between races, because, eventually, it's evened out. In fact, Trolls, as per the spot in SR3, are the rarest of the Metas. With those notes, it must mean that Priority E should be Ork, C should be Troll, and everything else should be D, right? Right? |
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Dec 12 2003, 12:27 AM
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#67
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yeah... sometimes costs are chosen to keep things rare. Other times, they're chosen for game balance. There's a difference.
As for 4th ed, it has been clearly stated that there are no plans for it. This was several months ago, but I somehow doubt that they've found the need since then. At the very least, they're going to get all the reprints out the door before they work on another edition. ~J |
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Dec 12 2003, 01:50 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 7-December 03 Member No.: 5,883 |
Actually, it was the spell point thing that got my panties in a wad originally. it just showed such an unbalanced look at the game world that it tainted the entire rest of your system. So I brought that up, and with every post since then, you have grown further and further from what I feel the ideal character mindset should be. You're idea of how you create charcters is not how I want to see other people creating characters. therefore any character creations system that comes out with that mindset is probably going to be going in a wrong direction. And you still are making mistakes and not understanding basic concepts, for instance just because metas are evening out compared to humans does not mean that humans will increase in priority, and it definitely is not a linear increase (every 10 years it goes down). Also, you're assuming that the old rules actually were true at a time and that they have become this, when a rules system comes out, the other one must be treated as if it never existed; it's not like all of a sudden in 2060, all battles suddenly became different, just becayse SR3 changed the initiative system.
and most of the people who have chimed in have actually said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The priority system really is hard to revamp and do correctly, because it is so rigid. Personally, I might be for a revamp of some aspects of the chargen system, altering point costs for certain things, and doing other things like changing the price of spell points. maybe making a special rule that conjuring adepts (if not other awakened as well) can use their spell points to initiate because that's the only way they can be better at conjuring at chargen than a full mage. Perhaps people do need to look at metas and alter their costs, but there's 3 things to keep in mind: 1: cost should reflect benefit. that is, if you make it free to play a troll, then many people will just because they can get the stat buffs at no cost. you need to have any bonuses cost something 2: cost should create the proportions in reality, so if something's rarer in the "reality" of the game world, it should be rare among people making characters too. 3: Cost should not penalize people wanting to do something for roleplaying reasons. Lets say I want to make a samurai, and I want him to be a dwarf, I shouldn't have to pay through the nose to get a dwarf, just because they're rare. |
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Dec 12 2003, 05:30 AM
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#69
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
Ok 1. cost reflecting benifit. Ok so your saying that the bonuses need negitives right? 2. In this point your saying what if it is rare to have the this or that in the game world then letting players have access to said item/race should be limited right? And 3. the prob. with penalizeing the player wanting to do something for role-playing reasons sounds good. but as stated by another poster vs. your example of a dwarf. People can play a mundane dwarf or ork for free because to play a mundane human your throwing away priority d away on magic. So I moved all metas to priority c and human to d thus you dont really throw away any priority on magic. You can now use the lowest, worst priority on a useless ability magic. |
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Dec 12 2003, 05:36 AM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 7-December 03 Member No.: 5,883 |
And now you're hitting on why people don't use the priority system by itself. Sum to 10, Points, or BeCKS are much more common. The best fix for the priority system is not to use it.
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Dec 12 2003, 05:48 AM
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#71
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Right. Sum-to-Ten works just fine while keeping the flavor and style of the Priority system. In fact, it's derived from the very original design of the Shadowrun game if memory serves (I never actually owned the 1st Edition book).
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Dec 12 2003, 06:04 AM
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#72
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yep. IIRC, it was written up for the 1st Ed. Shadowrun Companion. |
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Dec 12 2003, 06:21 AM
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#73
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
um first edition never had a companion. the first one came out for second edition about a year before the switch to 3rd. However yes the orginal master character creation system is sum to 10 and that was it. |
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Dec 12 2003, 07:19 AM
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#74
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Thanks. You are quite right about the Companion not being released for SR1. I had meant to write the 1st edition of the Shadowrun Companion. :) I'm not quite sure what you mean by...
The original Character Creation System was the Priority System. Sum-to-Ten is merely a later variant of that. |
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Dec 12 2003, 07:22 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
A little late to be posting this, but I don't like your priority system. It could be useful for a mage friendly highpower game, but overall it's a coked out, cranked up, maged to the max descent into point-whoring and powergaming.
Granted, I don't mind the [magical] killing machine every now and again, but those ventures are rare. 3rd edition got it down pat, and BeCKs, Point-build, and Sum-to-ten are all wonderful editions. Your priority system may work well in your campaign, but as a generality it seems overpowered and more than a little biased. Keep at it, it's taken me several years to get the rules to how I like them, and I'm still overhauling. Good luck. |
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