Then 35point limit., Is it really needed? Options

[BetaFlame]

Okay, so I have been thinking about dumping the limit on positive and negitive qualities. The +/-35 points one.

Instead of that, I was thinking of making it so that you could only gain 15 points through negative qualities. Meaning you could take as many positives as you like, and balance them out with negatives, but you could never gain more than 15 points.

That isn't to say that you are REQUIRED to gain 15 points. You could only take positive qualities, and 0 negative ones.

How terrible is this idea?

[Ryu]

Thats actually way more limiting than RAW. While 35 BP of negative qualities are common, I´ve rarely seen a char hit the 35 BP on positive qualities.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'm not sure. Am I allowed to load up on positive qualities and negative qualities if i'ma same? For example can I take type O, biocapability cyber, biocompat bio, wildcard prototype, and then load up on random cyberbased negative qualities? That mgiht get a bit extreme

[MarCazm]

Instead of that, I was thinking of making it so that you could only gain 15 points through negative qualities. Meaning you could take as many positives as you like, and balance them out with negatives, but you could never gain more than 15 points.

That isn't to say that you are REQUIRED to gain 15 points. You could only take positive qualities, and 0 negative ones.

How terrible is this idea?

What's your intention with this??

Do you want weaker or stronger characters??

If there's no limit to positive qualities you'll have type 0's and biocompatibles running all along, for example. You get starting characters with qualities never thought of being purchased together, because it wasn't possible before. Just in the case the player abandons on 30 points in attributes which he can compensate with bioware through puttin' them for type 0, the player wins, 'cause he gets more out of it. And additionally he can purchase any quality he wants which works in asimilar way, because he's not limited.

I know it's just one side of the coin, but think about it.

The building system works fine the way it is.

[Cthulhudreams]

Reflex Recorder- Skill
Muscle Toner (1-4)
Datajack
Radar Sensor (1-4)۩
Neo-EPO۩
Wired Reflexes II
Skillwire Expert System۩
Skillwire (1-6)
Synthacardium (1-3)
Reflex Recorder- Skill Group

Cybereyes + Cyberears

Obvious foot

Wild Card Nano Prototype۩
Genecrafted۩
Biocompatability (bioware)۩
Biocompatability (cyberware)۩
Genetic Heritage۩
Type O System۩

<<Negative Qualities>>
High-Maintenance Implant۩
High-Maintenance Implant۩
High-Maintenance Implant۩
Implant-Induced Immune Deficiency۩
Cyberpsychosis۩
Biosystem Overstress۩
Buggy 'Ware۩
Buggy 'Ware۩
Mystery Mod Noise۩
Mystery Mod Noise۩
Mystery Mod Noise۩

You're going to need to take cybertechnology 4 to keep all your crap running, but he's pretty sweet. Ideally i'd like to take genecrafted several times, and get the permanent effects from some of the gene tonics. 70k left over.

Mages can do much the same thing with Gease and allergies to random crap and suddenly end up with quite a few more build points.

[nathanross]

As much as I dont care either way, there is something you need to remember. All the qualities where priced with the 35BP limit in mind. Type O seems to be the big one here, so I'll work with that. Type O is priced so that you can't really take anything else that would also help you save essence from ware. This is a balance issue that I agree with (and others seem to as well). There is also the issue with full magicians, mentor spirits, and focused concentration. That being, you can only have 1 level of focused concentration as a full magician with mentor spirit. This is for balance. This also puts more weight on individual qualities and doesn't make the GM have to bone you 6 ways to sunday every day.

I think things are fine the way they are, but if you want to throw out the 35 cap, instead of capping it at a 15pt. difference, I would say at least 25-30 pt difference in both ways. Meaning they could not spend or get back more than 25-30BP on qualities. Also, dont let them take too many Incompetences.

[Malicant]

omfg, I just pictured an Adept with Type-Owen. The possiblities... endless... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

Coudln;t you do that anyway? Type O is 30 BP and adept is like.. 5? Right?

What makes this one more powerful is you can also have like martial arts IV and ambidextrous as well. Sweet.

[WearzManySkins]

RAW page 77
Character may not spend more than 35 BP on Positive Qualities.

RAW page 81
Character may not spend more than 35 BP on Negative Qualities.

And yes I can characters that have 35pts in Positive Qualities offset by 35 pts in Negative Qualities.

Right now with the limits there is a balance, with out limits things get crazy real fast.

WMS

[BetaFlame]

To be 100% honest, I dont even know what Type O system is, guys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I have the main book, Street Magic, and Arsenal.

Mostly, this came up when a guy wanted to play an Adept with Ambi, Martial Arts and Lucky (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Malicant]

Coudln;t you do that anyway? Type O is 30 BP and adept is like.. 5? Right?

As much as I loath to admit it, you are right. But it needed such a thread to unlock that idea in my mind, so this idea is partially to blame (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Mostly, this came up when a guy wanted to play an Adept with Ambi, Martial Arts and Lucky nyahnyah.gif

If he actually has the points to benefit from Lucky, something is really wrong here. If he doesn't have the points, he doesn't need that quality. Problem solved either way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ryu]

omfg, I just pictured an Adept with Type-Owen. The possiblities... endless... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I´ve said yes to such a character concept when we started the current campaign, but was ultimately not taken up on it. The magic points you manage to keep are very expensive, compared to just replacing the lost points. It´s better to cover all the bases with BP and leave the karma for magical growth.

[Cthulhudreams]

@Malicant: to be honest, its not very good, because the really good implants are mostly cultured, and type O doesn't work.

@Betaflame

Type O is in augmentation, costs 30 BP and lets all non cultured bioware count as delta. Which is pretty sweet.

incidently, as lucky isn't that hot a quality, i'd consider letting him do it as a one time exception.

[Larme]

I think instead of replacing an arbitrary 35 point limit with an arbitrary 15 point gain limit, the best course is to replace the arbitrary limit with a flexible GM discretion standard. The limit is good, I think, but if someone wants to exceed it, I think the best standard is whether the GM thinks it would make a good character. A character with every negative quality would obviously not be any good. But under the OP's idea, they could take every negative quality. Obviously GM discretion applies everywhere, but if you're going outside the RAW why make a new set standard?

[BetaFlame]

@Betaflame

Type O is in augmentation, costs 30 BP and lets all non cultured bioware count as delta. Which is pretty sweet.

incidently, as lucky isn't that hot a quality, i'd consider letting him do it as a one time exception.

\

Holy crap. Type O is insane. That seems way overpowered. I'm not sure I'd allow that in the first place.

[Cthulhudreams]

it's really not very good. Bioware is already pretty cheap on the essence, and it doesn't work with cultured bioware or genetech - ie all the good stuff - and overall is fairly dismal, when you actually have to pay for it.

Most people go 'OMG! WTF?!?! OP!! LOLOLOLOL!' and then when you try using it basically sucks, and there are other things to spend that 35 BP positive quality allowance on. But when that quality doesn't cost 30 BP, and instead makes you allergic to Gold, Silver and Rubies, then it is, as I said, pretty sweet.

[Malicant]

@Malicant: to be honest, its not very good, because the really good implants are mostly cultured, and type O doesn't work.

The really good stuff is Muscle Toner. Lot's of it. And a Suprathyroid Gland for good measure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Getting that for less then a point of Essence is pretty fucking sweet.

[Kyoto Kid]

...Genecrafted and Genetic Heritage are better anyway. The first lets you purchase any Geneware at a 20% savings at Chargen. The second allows you to pick one Genetic treatment for free and gives a 20% discount on all Trangenic treatments at Chargen and afterwards.

[BetaFlame]

I think I might go with nathanross' idea of a 20 point difference in either way.

That would let someone play a Magician with a Mentor Spirit without taking a negative quality, but the more badass abilities (I'm looking at , Type O) would take at least one Flaw.

I just dont like the number difference the standard rules set. I dont have a real reason for not liking it that way, I just dont.

[WearzManySkins]

...Genecrafted and Genetic Heritage are better anyway. The first lets you purchase any Geneware at a 20% savings at Chargen. The second allows you to pick one Genetic treatment for free and gives a 20% discount on all Trangenic treatments at Chargen and afterwards.

One note these two Advantages reduce the costs of Geneware by 20% and Transgenetic Ware by 40%. Transgenetic ware is all the really neat things too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Lyonheart]

Okay, so I have been thinking about dumping the limit on positive and negitive qualities. The +/-35 points one.

Instead of that, I was thinking of making it so that you could only gain 15 points through negative qualities. Meaning you could take as many positives as you like, and balance them out with negatives, but you could never gain more than 15 points.

That isn't to say that you are REQUIRED to gain 15 points. You could only take positive qualities, and 0 negative ones.

How terrible is this idea?

Well here is the 35pts I'd spend on every character.

Genetic Heritage 10pts
Type O system 30pts
Biocompatability: Cyberware 10pts

I'd like that rule (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Daier Mune]

One note these two Advantages reduce the costs of Geneware by 20% and Transgenetic Ware by 40%. Transgenetic ware is all the really neat things too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

huh, it never occured to me that those stack. that definately puts genetech in a new light.

[nathanross]

Mostly, this came up when a guy wanted to play an Adept with Ambi, Martial Arts and Lucky (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In that case, just houserule that Martial arts are not a Quality (they are NOT overpowered or BP efficient), then you have some room left. It is probably best to have an understanding of the power level of each Quality (Lucky is not that good/efficient), and then go on a case to case basis.

The really good stuff is Muscle Toner. Lot's of it. And a Suprathyroid Gland for good measure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Getting that for less then a point of Essence is pretty fucking sweet.

Type O is really sweet in that you never have to pay more than basic prices for basic bioware. Sure you dont get Synaptic or Cerebral Booster at discount, but you can fit just about all the basic ware into you at base cost with room to spare, and that wear is not something you should overlook. Still, 30BP at chargen is harsh, and you have to really want Bioware (and lots of it) to go that route. I tried making a sammy with Type O, but found it was just plain easier and more to my liking to take Biocompatibility (Cyberware) and later on get Adapsin genetech. I am still very disappointed with the Bioware presented in Augmentation (unless I want to be a biofreak with weird animal sense organs and the like, or max out my fatigue DP), and my street sams are still Cyber sams.

[Critias]

*shrugs* If someone has a fair list of Qualities they want, that fit the character and are backed up by a solid story, arbitrary Positive/Negative restrictions are one of the only things I've always been fine with house ruling right out the window. There's supposed to be something special about these characters that explains why they're so fucked up they aren't holding down real jobs, and there's supposed to be something special about these characters that explains why, despite that, they're capable of doing the things they do and being good at their work as Shadowrunners.

Positive and Negative Qualities are some of the best, most character-driven, ways to show not only how fucked up a Shadowrunner's life, mind, and body can be, but also what "something special" they've got that still lets them eke out a living with the job they've got. If they fit the character and the campaign, as far as I've always been concerned, the sky's the limit.

[ornot]

I have to agree with the posters that have said allowing people to offset an unlimited number of +ve qualities with -ve qualities would break things.

I still hate incompetency as a ridiculously cheap -ve quality. "Oh great. You're crap at something you never wanted to do anyway". I'll usually allow incompetencies if a player can give a good reason (examples include cybercombat in a scorched street sam, and demolition in a face adept who got blown up one time, making him nervous around explosives). I've heard some really stupid excuses for someone to be incompetent at things ranging from nautical mechanic (a mage) to parachuting (a hacker).