Okay, so I have been thinking about dumping the limit on positive and negitive qualities. The +/-35 points one.

Instead of that, I was thinking of making it so that you could only gain 15 points through negative qualities. Meaning you could take as many positives as you like, and balance them out with negatives, but you could never gain more than 15 points.

That isn't to say that you are REQUIRED to gain 15 points. You could only take positive qualities, and 0 negative ones.

How terrible is this idea?

Thats actually way more limiting than RAW. While 35 BP of negative qualities are common, I´ve rarely seen a char hit the 35 BP on positive qualities.

I'm not sure. Am I allowed to load up on positive qualities and negative qualities if i'ma same? For example can I take type O, biocapability cyber, biocompat bio, wildcard prototype, and then load up on random cyberbased negative qualities? That mgiht get a bit extreme

What's your intention with this??

Do you want weaker or stronger characters??

If there's no limit to positive qualities you'll have type 0's and biocompatibles running all along, for example. You get starting characters with qualities never thought of being purchased together, because it wasn't possible before. Just in the case the player abandons on 30 points in attributes which he can compensate with bioware through puttin' them for type 0, the player wins, 'cause he gets more out of it. And additionally he can purchase any quality he wants which works in asimilar way, because he's not limited.

I know it's just one side of the coin, but think about it.

The building system works fine the way it is.

Reflex Recorder- Skill
Muscle Toner (1-4)
Datajack
Radar Sensor (1-4)۩
Neo-EPO۩
Wired Reflexes II
Skillwire Expert System۩
Skillwire (1-6)
Synthacardium (1-3)
Reflex Recorder- Skill Group

Cybereyes + Cyberears

Obvious foot

Wild Card Nano Prototype۩
Genecrafted۩
Biocompatability (bioware)۩
Biocompatability (cyberware)۩
Genetic Heritage۩
Type O System۩

<<Negative Qualities>>
High-Maintenance Implant۩
High-Maintenance Implant۩
High-Maintenance Implant۩
Implant-Induced Immune Deficiency۩
Cyberpsychosis۩
Biosystem Overstress۩
Buggy 'Ware۩
Buggy 'Ware۩
Mystery Mod Noise۩
Mystery Mod Noise۩
Mystery Mod Noise۩

You're going to need to take cybertechnology 4 to keep all your crap running, but he's pretty sweet. Ideally i'd like to take genecrafted several times, and get the permanent effects from some of the gene tonics. 70k left over.

Mages can do much the same thing with Gease and allergies to random crap and suddenly end up with quite a few more build points.

As much as I dont care either way, there is something you need to remember. All the qualities where priced with the 35BP limit in mind. Type O seems to be the big one here, so I'll work with that. Type O is priced so that you can't really take anything else that would also help you save essence from ware. This is a balance issue that I agree with (and others seem to as well). There is also the issue with full magicians, mentor spirits, and focused concentration. That being, you can only have 1 level of focused concentration as a full magician with mentor spirit. This is for balance. This also puts more weight on individual qualities and doesn't make the GM have to bone you 6 ways to sunday every day.

I think things are fine the way they are, but if you want to throw out the 35 cap, instead of capping it at a 15pt. difference, I would say at least 25-30 pt difference in both ways. Meaning they could not spend or get back more than 25-30BP on qualities. Also, dont let them take too many Incompetences.

omfg, I just pictured an Adept with Type-Owen. The possiblities... endless...

Coudln;t you do that anyway? Type O is 30 BP and adept is like.. 5? Right?

What makes this one more powerful is you can also have like martial arts IV and ambidextrous as well. Sweet.

RAW page 77
Character may not spend more than 35 BP on Positive Qualities.

RAW page 81
Character may not spend more than 35 BP on Negative Qualities.

And yes I can characters that have 35pts in Positive Qualities offset by 35 pts in Negative Qualities.

Right now with the limits there is a balance, with out limits things get crazy real fast.

WMS

To be 100% honest, I dont even know what Type O system is, guys

I have the main book, Street Magic, and Arsenal.

Mostly, this came up when a guy wanted to play an Adept with Ambi, Martial Arts and Lucky

As much as I loath to admit it, you are right. But it needed such a thread to unlock that idea in my mind, so this idea is partially to blame


If he actually has the points to benefit from Lucky, something is really wrong here. If he doesn't have the points, he doesn't need that quality. Problem solved either way

I´ve said yes to such a character concept when we started the current campaign, but was ultimately not taken up on it. The magic points you manage to keep are very expensive, compared to just replacing the lost points. It´s better to cover all the bases with BP and leave the karma for magical growth.

@Malicant: to be honest, its not very good, because the really good implants are mostly cultured, and type O doesn't work.

@Betaflame

Type O is in augmentation, costs 30 BP and lets all non cultured bioware count as delta. Which is pretty sweet.

incidently, as lucky isn't that hot a quality, i'd consider letting him do it as a one time exception.

I think instead of replacing an arbitrary 35 point limit with an arbitrary 15 point gain limit, the best course is to replace the arbitrary limit with a flexible GM discretion standard. The limit is good, I think, but if someone wants to exceed it, I think the best standard is whether the GM thinks it would make a good character. A character with every negative quality would obviously not be any good. But under the OP's idea, they could take every negative quality. Obviously GM discretion applies everywhere, but if you're going outside the RAW why make a new set standard?

\

Holy crap. Type O is insane. That seems way overpowered. I'm not sure I'd allow that in the first place.

it's really not very good. Bioware is already pretty cheap on the essence, and it doesn't work with cultured bioware or genetech - ie all the good stuff - and overall is fairly dismal, when you actually have to pay for it.

Most people go 'OMG! WTF?!?! OP!! LOLOLOLOL!' and then when you try using it basically sucks, and there are other things to spend that 35 BP positive quality allowance on. But when that quality doesn't cost 30 BP, and instead makes you allergic to Gold, Silver and Rubies, then it is, as I said, pretty sweet.

The really good stuff is Muscle Toner. Lot's of it. And a Suprathyroid Gland for good measure. Getting that for less then a point of Essence is pretty fucking sweet.

...Genecrafted and Genetic Heritage are better anyway. The first lets you purchase any Geneware at a 20% savings at Chargen. The second allows you to pick one Genetic treatment for free and gives a 20% discount on all Trangenic treatments at Chargen and afterwards.

I think I might go with nathanross' idea of a 20 point difference in either way.

That would let someone play a Magician with a Mentor Spirit without taking a negative quality, but the more badass abilities (I'm looking at , Type O) would take at least one Flaw.

I just dont like the number difference the standard rules set. I dont have a real reason for not liking it that way, I just dont.

One note these two Advantages reduce the costs of Geneware by 20% and Transgenetic Ware by 40%. Transgenetic ware is all the really neat things too.

WMS

Well here is the 35pts I'd spend on every character.

Genetic Heritage 10pts
Type O system 30pts
Biocompatability: Cyberware 10pts

I'd like that rule

huh, it never occured to me that those stack. that definately puts genetech in a new light.

In that case, just houserule that Martial arts are not a Quality (they are NOT overpowered or BP efficient), then you have some room left. It is probably best to have an understanding of the power level of each Quality (Lucky is not that good/efficient), and then go on a case to case basis.


Type O is really sweet in that you never have to pay more than basic prices for basic bioware. Sure you dont get Synaptic or Cerebral Booster at discount, but you can fit just about all the basic ware into you at base cost with room to spare, and that wear is not something you should overlook. Still, 30BP at chargen is harsh, and you have to really want Bioware (and lots of it) to go that route. I tried making a sammy with Type O, but found it was just plain easier and more to my liking to take Biocompatibility (Cyberware) and later on get Adapsin genetech. I am still very disappointed with the Bioware presented in Augmentation (unless I want to be a biofreak with weird animal sense organs and the like, or max out my fatigue DP), and my street sams are still Cyber sams.

*shrugs* If someone has a fair list of Qualities they want, that fit the character and are backed up by a solid story, arbitrary Positive/Negative restrictions are one of the only things I've always been fine with house ruling right out the window. There's supposed to be something special about these characters that explains why they're so fucked up they aren't holding down real jobs, and there's supposed to be something special about these characters that explains why, despite that, they're capable of doing the things they do and being good at their work as Shadowrunners.

Positive and Negative Qualities are some of the best, most character-driven, ways to show not only how fucked up a Shadowrunner's life, mind, and body can be, but also what "something special" they've got that still lets them eke out a living with the job they've got. If they fit the character and the campaign, as far as I've always been concerned, the sky's the limit.

I have to agree with the posters that have said allowing people to offset an unlimited number of +ve qualities with -ve qualities would break things.

I still hate incompetency as a ridiculously cheap -ve quality. "Oh great. You're crap at something you never wanted to do anyway". I'll usually allow incompetencies if a player can give a good reason (examples include cybercombat in a scorched street sam, and demolition in a face adept who got blown up one time, making him nervous around explosives). I've heard some really stupid excuses for someone to be incompetent at things ranging from nautical mechanic (a mage) to parachuting (a hacker).

Which is when, as per the rules, you just shoot them down.

The OPTION being there isn't innately game breaking. Leaving the option there for unlimited (or less limited) Qualities doesn't, in and of itself, do anything at all to the game balance of any game, ever. It's only the abuse of that option, in direct violation of the long-standing "GM's fiat" rule anyways, that could cause anything to break.

I always have trouble finding negative qualities I do not consider crippling anyway, so I don't see many problems.

I do shoot them down, but that -ve quality is so ripe for abuse, that the moment I see it I immediately get the twinkslap reflex, even if it is legitimate.

Which is why in our campaign, we don't have hard limits on BP, gear and availability, we take a look at the end result, and judge that for balance.

The thing with incompetence is it doesn't even let you default, our covert ops specialist thought it would be fun to take incompetence demolitions, yet still try to blow shit up all the time, but be can't even try...
So you only take incompetence in skills you will never use anyway, or you gimp yourself for more than 5 BPs worth...

Anyway, we consider that limit to be more of a suggestion than a rule and we rarely go over 20 BP of negative qualities, though we usually take around 30 of positive ones...
We also don't count MA qualities or magic/resonance giving qualities for the limit...

I've got a character I've been working on that I want to give Incompetent (Swimming), but I want to be able to get the Athletics Skill Group still, just excluding swimming. I've got to run that one by my GM to see if he'd let me do that.

My face has Low Pain Tolerance, and Incompetent: Unarmed. She also has no other melee fighting skills.

When someone gets in melee range, she starts whimpering, begging, pleading, conning, whatever it takes.

Good times!

My Urban Shaman has incompetencies in Survival and Parachuting. If those ever come up to bite me in the ass, they'll do it spectacularly.

It's a Ref's job to make sure that the negative qualities taken do, occasionally, hamper the Runner. The mechanism for doing this isn't specified, but in the same way it's their job to find appropriate but challenging escapades for the Runners, they have to take any background given and use it. Responsibly and reasonably. Your Incompetent Parachutist might have to be in a double rig, gimping the Special Forces para-trained character, when it comes to the adventure that needs aerial insertion, but you shouldn't need to parachute in on every target. There should also be targets that might be suitable for an overland yomp through wilderness approach, but your Incompetence prevents that being practicable unless someone else can pick up the slack.

If it never hampers you, it's not worth any points. As another game puts it: "Taking 'no legs' as a disadvantage then buying Cyberlegs doesn't count."

I agree, but the limit establishes a good rule-of-thumb, though, so it's worth keeping as a guideline.



Definitely. Obviously the GP-approval step of chargen is always present, but I use the 35BP limits on positive and negative qualities as as guideline for the players: if you're under the limit, expect to get approved, if you're over the limit, expect not, but I've made exceptions both ways. I've let a character take more than 35 points of flaws if, as a set, they all really fit and worked together, and I've disallowed a combination of flaws that added up to less than 35 (like 6 Incompetence flaws). Likewise with positive qualities.

Not to mention the notoriety a character gets from all those.

Actually... if you really look into it it is overpowered... You are forgetting that you can use Type O with second hand bio. I dont have my books with me but so my numbers may be off but if IIRC muscle toners are .3e at a cost of 7000nuyen. At rating 4 its 1.2e and 28000nuyen then add second hand.... 1.44e and 14000nuyen the do type O for a final cost of .72e and 14000nuyen. No... not broken at all.... Just look at some of the basic bio you can get at half price and almost half essence... Who cares if it does not work on synaptic 2.... not spending as much on the other stuff means you can actually afford synaptic at char gen.

It hampers me constantly, actually. It means I can't go playing outside the city (more the survival incompetence, but they both work out that way). There's a difference between letting an incompetence hamper a player for the equivalent of its BP amount and using it to just kill a player at a certain time (which is pretty much the way either of those incompetences would shake out). You're right about "no legs" thing with cyberlegs, but this isn't really the same situation, because the incompetences DO present an obstacle, just without actually "coming into play," per se.

Except rating 4 muscle toner is not something you can buy at char gen, and frankly the only thing stopping, say, my dog installing rating 4 muscle toner is that availibity limit.

But more to the point, doesn't it actually say that it makes regular bioware count as delta, thus not second hand?

My thing with the Incompetences, is that they are 5 point negative qualities, the minimum costs. These shouldn't bite you in the ass every single game session, IMO. Like, a Mild addiction, it says once every few days/once a week or so, a craving should come up. Now, it's not a hard or fast rule...if the character is, say, at home for two weeks(hypothetically), with no 'pressure', it might not come up. Likewise, if said character goes undercover in a Jazz Ring and he's mildly addicted to jazz...then the craving could come up more often.

an Incompetence, IMO, should hinder the character once in awhile, for 5 BP. Now, a 30 BP negative quality? Yeah, that's a nasty one. Be prepared for it to really hit you hard. In fact, I might suggest against this because some qualities just hose a character soooo bad.


Personally, i like self-policing qualities. First Impression? Great, every time you meet someone the first time you get the bonus. It's nice and cut and dry. Allergy: Soy is good; my character that has it, the GM agreed that I pay an extra 10% a month on my lifestyle, I make sure myself i run a minimum of middle(if i got dropped to Low i'd probably add alot more), and basically make it a point of knocking extra off my nuyen if we go out to special dinners. It works well for all of us, and trust me, my wallet feels the flaw, especially since said character has a Suprathyroid. Yeah, +20% per month, baby. This adds up to 1k per month middle, and 12k per year. Basically, his allergy and ware cost him three lower priced runs. When you think about it in that term, its a pain in the ass. (should i increase to High? Double that.) Allergies to Unobtanium are harder, since the GM has to be able to realistically stick them in sometimes. I mean, putting The Man with the Golden Gun into every blessed fight because a character has a mild Gold allergy is kind of lame; but an enemy that does a little research and remembers this can haunt them now and again. Sunlight is a great self-policing one, too. Go out during the day without protection, you're gonna hurt. Occationaly the GM can set it up where you are gonna feel uncomfortable.

Anyway, im also in the boat of rather allowing 50 points of really cool negative qualities that mix together, instead of 15 points of ones that don't. I'd be much more likely to allow Scorched, Simsense Vertigo, Sensitive Neutral Structure, Mild BTL addiction(all matching up), with other ones that might head into that mental screw category that add up to even 40 BP; but if someone tried to get Incompetence: Chipmunk Breeding and Mild Allergy to Elephant Liver past me for 10 points i'd of course tell em to pick something else.

I DO, however, give players the benefit of the doubt most of the time. I have a very, very, long and patient fuse when it comes to the 'twinkslap' (is that another form of pimpslap? ), and i very, very, rarely use it, unless it's said extreme circumstances.

All THAT being said, we stick to the +/-35 just because of simplicity purposes. It's a pretty big chunk BP to spend on qualities if you only purchase them, and thus should get something good, and it's alot of BP if you get it back in pure points. Works fine for us.

I understand it's not a disadvantage if you don't suffer from it, but there are reasonable ways to do this. I admit im not too into the ''If this quality does not affect you for exactly'' *gets out calculator and plugs in numbers for five minutes* ''At least 8.324444522 percent of the time in the game, i'm afraid i can't allow it. It's free points in that case, and i'm getting...7.99836 percent of the time. Please pick something else.''

I'm not saying anyone here does that, and it is greatly exaggerated of course, but I HAVE, sadly, seen GMs that ALMOST take it to this point where they are, for lack of a better term, 'quality control' freaks. If one of my players 5 point quality skips a week or even two where it comes up, the game is NOT going to implode on itself and fall apart.

IIRC by the description, you can only have one or the other of the Biocompatibility qualities, but not both.

DS

Fine... rating 3 then... I did say I did not have my books with me... And, other than availability, your dog would still have to pay the full price for it. My point was you would be spending half as much and that makes it a much better quality than some think. Add the half price factor to and adept and they get much better very quickly.
And IIRC, regular bio is the only stuff that could be second hand because cultured and graded ware was gene typed to a specific individual. The only difference between regular ware and second hand is the latter was "used" a bit before being in you. It is still made like all other regular ware, that is it is type O. I dont recall anything in the books that say you can't stack type O with second hand.
But much like everything on Dumpshock... It is all subject to the person reading. Almost everyone, it seems, sees the rules differently here.

Rating 2 is maximum at chargen.

Yeah, that is just munchy man. Because of this, one day your GM will have a run where you Parachute into the Rain Forrest and have to survive while making your way to a secure facility up the Amazon.


Wow, I forgot about second hand. That is sweet!

So, when I give my urban shaman concrete (heh, unexpected pun!) reasons to stay in the city, you think that's muncy, but if the GM were to send an urban shaman to the Amazon, you see no problem with that? It would be like sending the hacker on an astral quest. Like I've said before, I don't think it's necessarily munchy to have incompetences just because they never "come up." Sure, I'm not falling to my death every week, but I am being limited in what I can do every week. If the GM said "Hey, this Johnson is willing to give you money to parachute into the Amazon," I'd reply "Sorry, I don't jump into the Amazon for money," and ooc, I'd be thinking "I don't do it for karma, either." Call me munchy, but I think that drawback is worth WAY more than 5 or 10 BP.

Actually I'm pretty sure Type O specifically states that you can't take Second Hand Bio. There's a small chance I could be thinking of a different positive quality, but I doubt it.

Again, for those who are reading impaired.... I don't have my book with me.... As is... don't really know so was sort of guessing...
And.... Doesn't second hand also have a -4 to availability. IE: easier to get... If muscle toner is 5 availability per rating point level 3 would be available at char gen. Then again I could be thinking of SR3 rules.


If it does then I stand corrected.

"Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body"

This means to me that it has no effect on any grade other than basic. Second hand is a different grade of bioware. So is alpha and beta. It will not affect the essence cost of anything that isn't basic grade bioware. Problem solved

Aug pg20

Well then, I stand corrected.
I think type O is a little to expensive then... But then thats just me.