Acid Stream and Toxic Wave, What are they useful for? Options

[Werewindlefr]

Hi,

I'm trying to figure out how Acid Stream and Toxic Waves spells elemental effects work - in the RAW. The thing is, the acid elemental effect seems only useful for long-lasting acid, but acid created by elemental spells vanishes after the spell is cast. Overall, it just does the normal damage resisted by half the ballistic armor rating or non-doubled barrier armor. Which is exactly what any other elemental spell does, except that they also have another effect.

In the end, it seems that in the rules, Acid Stream/Toxic Wave spells don't have an elemental effect, because they don't last long enough. So they are kind of pointless when compared to fire/cold/light/sound balls.

Did I miss something in the rules?

[CanRay]

Being burned is bad enough, but having your FACE MELTED because of a spell?

Horror value!

Also, it's a nice spell for Toxic Shamans to have. Good enough reason for me.

Finally, everyone expects the Magician to have a Fire Spell. Everyone. Load up on the Asbestos Undies. Acid? Not so expected.

[Pendaric]

Well in SR3, these spells also created treacherous ground and clouds of blinding suffocating vapour. Re-check the acid elemental effect is SR4 to see if it still does. If not. Well you can perhapes house rule or leaves as is.

[Malicant]

Acid can create visibility modifiers.

[Werewindlefr]

Yeah, I was just wondering if there was any rule-effect to represent how acid can be really nasty against some materials. But I guess it cannot be nasty enough in a split second (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) .

Okay, so it's just a glorified smoke-grenade effect?

(Also: I'm only talking about rules stuff. Of course, the Troll street Shaman specialized in vicious-and-disgusting stuff has the spell at my table (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[Malicant]

Okay, so it's just a glorified smoke-grenade effect?

In a nutshell, yes.

[Zen Shooter01]

It's good for MELTING PEOPLE'S FACES OFF!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

It's an old debate, whether the extra effects of elemental spells justify the drain, especially compared to the effects of a frag grenade.

[CanRay]

"My face! My precious face! It's the type of character I am!!!"

[Werewindlefr]

Well, I can always houserule that it halves armor again (or negates it altogether) or something against materials that are easily melted with acid, although I'm open to suggestions here.

After all, the elemental damage resisted by half balistic / 1X-barrier armor only makes sense in some situations but not in others. You don't destroy a wall with cold.

[Tobias]

Or you could have it that you can sustain the spell to keep the acid melting.

[Aaron]

It seems to me that SR4 leaves it in the hands of the gamemaster to justify the extra drain of an elemental spell. For my part, I try to make it worthwhile. For acid, you'll usually see damage to armor as well as toxic smoke from vaporized synthetic materials. That sort of thing.

[Stahlseele]

Druggy-Mage:"heh, i got's me a new spell, i will never ever have to pay for my acid to get high ever again! . . . OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD BAD TRIP!"

[DTFarstar]

I treat elemental spells a little differently. In general the elements are transient effects, Fire burns out(though can set things on fire or cook off explosives), Cold can leave ice dependent on the situation, Acid does leave acid, electricity is obviously transient. I treat it more as a summoning of the element in question or a fabrication(ala Fashion) from available materials than I do as a brief conjuration. I think the ability to summon flame or at least heat enough to cause spontaneous combustion, the artic cold, acid, sound waves, etc. and actually transpose them into that area or to create them from available materials(I usually describe the latter because the former perches perilously on breaking the "No Teleportation" rule) - ala accelerating ambient particals till they cause a explosive collision, drawing energy off ambient particals to freeze things, recombining Hydrogen and something else nearby to create an acid, focusing all the ambient sound into a small area, etc. makes the extra drain sound more worth it. Also, it allows me to have a justification for letting the acid continue burning. It makes the sub-par elemental spells better and leaves the good ones where they are.

Chris

[Tarantula]

Cold leave behind ice? Then whats the ice effect good for?

[Stahlseele]

cold does not MAKE ice . . ice just appears over time if cold is used . . you could use cold on your too hot coffee and not have icicles in it . .
Ice MAKES Ice and disappears after some time again . . you could use it on your too hot coffee and have icicles appear in it so they cool down the coffee over some time and meld making the coffee not that strong anymore too

[DTFarstar]

I know, Stahl, the only way a cold spell leaves behind ice in my game is if there is a thin layer of moisture on something, though it tends to temporarily frost things because of ambient moisture in the air. It was just the only thing I could think of to describe it as at the time.

Chris

[Stahlseele]

yeah, i got that, i was talking to Spider-Boy *g*

[fool]

I like the choking vapors thing from SR3. THat made it one of my faves.
The important thing is that like all aoe indirect spells, you don't actually have to see the target. I.E. they could be around the corner. It's not going to fry ammo etc, but most likely would do more cosmetic damage.

[Aaron]

I like the choking vapors thing from SR3. THat made it one of my faves.
The important thing is that like all aoe indirect spells, you don't actually have to see the target. I.E. they could be around the corner. It's not going to fry ammo etc, but most likely would do more cosmetic damage.

Not to mention that it's far more effective against drones and vehicles than direct damage spells.

[Tarantula]

Another benefit to lightning bolt... it does electrical damage. Depending on your GM, he might rule that vehicular/drone armor is metallic. Which electric damage ignores.

[fool]

actually powerbolt is better... lower drain, more chances to really inflict serious damage, depending on the drone/vehicle.

[Lionhearted]

Being burned is bad enough, but having your FACE MELTED because of a spell?

Wizpunk sure put an entirely new meaning to the word

[Werewindlefr]

Another benefit to lightning bolt... it does electrical damage. Depending on your GM, he might rule that vehicular/drone armor is metallic. Which electric damage ignores.

Physically speaking, it makes no sense. A metallic frame protects from lightning, by offering a better path for electricity. A metallic armor should make it nearly immune to electricity,

[Stahlseele]

farraday and his lightning-cage . . yep, somebody did not pay attention in their physics classes when thinking off those things . . but then again, physics paid no attention in Tech Schwarzkopfs classes concerning magic and the influence of narrativum . . if the mage believes that things inside the metal car get fried, then they get fried . . if he does not believe that, then he will do something other to the car and the whole problem is solved ^^

[CanRay]

Frag it, I knew I needed to stay awake in those classes at MIT&T!

Remember folks, we're dealing with forces that love to thumb their noses at Physics (Flying Eastern Dragons, anyone?). Physics discussions will just end up with angry Free Spirits that will demonstrate just how Non-Euclidean things can get!