Stick-n-Shock in full-auto weapons?!?, Is it possible and how would you deal with that? Options

[Triggerz]

Ok, so I'm getting back into SR after a while away and I'm asking myself all sorts of questions on how to handle various things. It seems that you can stick pretty much any kind of ammo into a good old Predator or an Ingram Smartgun X, so I was wondering what would happen if you put Stick-n-Shock into a Smartgun X and shot someone with a full auto burst of S-n-S...

I mean... I can imagine that whoever gets hit with the full auto burst is not going to feel all that well for a while, but... rule-wise... how would you handle it?

[CanRay]

I'm going to take this opportunity to be a wise-hoop, and just point out that it's the rare full-auto/burst weapon that DOESN'T have a Semi-Auto option, and you can use that when loaded with S-n-S. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Triggerz]

You ***can*** use it with S-n-S? Ok, but what damage does it do? Let's say I make it a narrow burst with 10 rounds. Does the damage scale? And how about the disorientation effects and secondary damage?

[Tarantula]

Rules wise, they take 6S(e) and have to resist the shock and disorientation/knockdown effects. You use up 10 rounds in the process.

[Triggerz]

Rules wise, they take 6S(e) and have to resist the shock and disorientation/knockdown effects. You use up 10 rounds in the process.

That's it?!? The thing is... It doesn't really make much sense as the person would have to resist twice that damage if you shot twice in SA. So twice the damage with only 20% of the ammo.

EDIT: Hence why I'm looking for some kind of house rule to handle it.

[Whipstitch]

It's really not that confusing, since stick and shock is really treated exactly as you would any burstfire attack. You take the base damage code plus net hits and compare it to armor, and then at the end you plug in any and all burstfire DV modifiers into the equation when it's time for your opponent to resist the actual damage. All stick and shock does is make the base damage code a 6(E) attack.

[Tarantula]

House rule, I'd call it +1 per shock. So, a full 10 round full auto attack would be 15S(e). For balance, I'd probably double recoil penalties due to a more massive round.

[Triggerz]

Ok, cool! Thanks a lot! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[WearzManySkins]

The current way I would do it this, if you wish to fire 10 rnds each is resolved separately at base damage and the effects do not apply until at the end of full burst.

Sorry my background does not allow the SnS to gain watts in power just because more than one round is fired at the same target Ohms Law is a reality to me.

Also SnS round would be "low velocity" rounds meaning the each round has just enough propellant to have the round reach the target. So in most parts they are used the "small" caliber weapons.

Since they are low velocity no recoil.

WMS

[Squinky]

House rule? I'm pretty certain they follow the normal rules for burst and full auto damage scaling. So a burst would go from a normal shot of 6(E) to 8(E).

No reason to mess with recoil, just go by the normal rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Triggerz]

Well, I'd like to avoid rolling each round individually. It would take forever and the people I play with would hang me real quick.

[Triggerz]

House rule? I'm pretty certain they follow the normal rules for burst and full auto damage scaling. So a burst would go from a normal shot of 6(E) to 8(E).

No reason to mess with recoil, just go by the normal rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

How about the secondary damage though? Does it make any kind of difference whether you're hit with one round or with ten?

[Tarantula]

House rule? I'm pretty certain they follow the normal rules for burst and full auto damage scaling. So a burst would go from a normal shot of 6(E) to 8(E).

No reason to mess with recoil, just go by the normal rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Arguably. The ammo states that it replaces the weapons DV with its own. The arguement is at what point do you do this? Full auto grants a +9DV bonus to the weapon, so, say it goes from 5P to 14P. Fantastic. Oh, but you're using sticknshock. That 14P just got replaced with 6S(e).

[Fix-it]

The current way I would do it this, if you wish to fire 10 rnds each is resolved separately at base damage and the effects do not apply until at the end of full burst.

Sorry my background does not allow the SnS to gain watts in power just because more than one round is fired at the same target Ohms Law is a reality to me.

WMS

er, technically correct, in an isolated, theoretical fashion. except they WOULD be more powerful against a metahuman target, as you are dumping the electrical energy into them for a longer period of time.

In standard IRL tasers, they can keep shocking you, hence you will stay incapacitated longer. extended periods have even killed.

IMHO, that means damage should increase just like std rounds.

/EDIT for spelling & Grammar

[WearzManySkins]

Another way to implement the low velocity is to have any weapon firing them use the Light Pistol Ranges.

WMS

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

The current way I would do it this, if you wish to fire 10 rnds each is resolved separately at base damage and the effects do not apply until at the end of full burst.

Sorry my background does not allow the SnS to gain watts in power just because more than one round is fired at the same target Ohms Law is a reality to me.

Well, the effect is really something like multiple Stick-n-shocks zapping slightly different areas of the body at slightly different times, which means it's more likely that one hits a really "good" spot (unarmored, or conductive, or able to get an important muscle group all spastic). While the individual rounds obviously don't "gain Watts in power" because they're fired in a group, the firer is certainly hitting the target with more capacitors, thus more energy. I think the Stun damage they inflict shouldn't be additive (that is, five rounds doing 6S(e) each) because yikes, that would be a lot of dice and a lot of damage. Since damage, including Stun damage, is something of an abstraction anyway, treating it the same way as burst fire from regular ammo makes sense to me: it's simpler, involves less die-rolling, and is consistent with other rules without being obviously impossible.

[krakjen]

So, you can do 15S(e)/-half with a steyr TMP ?
Not in my game.

Damage stays at 6S, but the elemental effect stacks.

If the target fails, he immediately falls and is incapacitated for a number of Combat Turns equal to 2 + net hits scored on the attack test.

So for a full burst that would be 2 + net hits + 9.

Not overpowered, but still interesting if you need someone to stay down for a long time...

[Triggerz]

So, you can do 15S(e)/-half with a steyr TMP ?
Not in my game.

Damage stays at 6S, but the elemental effect stacks.

So for a full burst that would be 2 + net hits + 9.

Not overpowered, but still interesting if you need someone to stay down for a long time...

hehe Well, I plan on using Frank Trollman's rule that treats S-n-S as a toxin and ignores net hits when calculating the primary damage. That way, it keeps things a bit more sane. But yeah, tasers kill when you shock someone with enough hits. The guy's heart will go nuts and break. So I wanted to allow that in my game.

[krakjen]

Then I think you should restrict s-n-s to bigger caliber weapons.

Edit: By this I mean heavy pistols (maybe SMG if you want), and everything bigger...

[Larme]

Arguably. The ammo states that it replaces the weapons DV with its own. The arguement is at what point do you do this? Full auto grants a +9DV bonus to the weapon, so, say it goes from 5P to 14P. Fantastic. Oh, but you're using sticknshock. That 14P just got replaced with 6S(e).

I don't think that's how it works. Here's the text: "The Stick-n-Shock replaces the weapon’s Damage Value with its own." That means that your DV goes from, say, 6P -1AP to 6S(e) -half AP. That becomes the weapon's new damage code. Narrow bursts do not modify the weapon's DV at all, they modify the attack's DV. For instance, "Narrow bursts increase the attack’s DV by +2." So, first you take the weapon's DV, which is replaced by the DV for stick n shock. And then when you attack, you add the modifiers to the DV of that attack only. So narrow bursts do increase the DV of stick-n-shock attacks like they do anything else.

The only way you could be correct is if narrow bursts modified the weapon's DV. No matter how you modify the weapon's damage code, it's replaced with 6S(e), you're right. But because narrow bursts do not change the weapon's damage code, but rather modify only the attack where the narrow burst is being fired, textually speaking you're dead wrong. And why shouldn't you be? I should think that getting shot with effectively 10 taser shots hurts a lot more than getting shot with 1. Certainly it shouldn't use 10x the ammo and do 1x the damage. That's not supported by common sense or RAW.

[WearzManySkins]

Well, the effect is really something like multiple Stick-n-shocks zapping slightly different areas of the body at slightly different times, which means it's more likely that one hits a really "good" spot (unarmored, or conductive, or able to get an important muscle group all spastic). While the individual rounds obviously don't "gain Watts in power" because they're fired in a group, the firer is certainly hitting the target with more capacitors, thus more energy. I think the Stun damage they inflict shouldn't be additive (that is, five rounds doing 6S(e) each) because yikes, that would be a lot of dice and a lot of damage. Since damage, including Stun damage, is something of an abstraction anyway, treating it the same way as burst fire from regular ammo makes sense to me: it's simpler, involves less die-rolling, and is consistent with other rules without being obviously impossible.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
I disagree but then my background has something to do with it also. I am "calibrated" for 10,000 volts currently. Go and read Ohm's Law, watts is what hurts a living creature.

So if if I used a defibrillator on ten different areas of your chest, would there be any different real difference? no once the heart contracts any more contractions have no effect until the heart uncontracts and begins beating again. Yes if you wait for the heart to cycle yes 10 such shocks would have a drastic effect.

If your voluntary muscles are contracting from the first round of SnS, can any more shock cause the still contracting muscles to contract any more? No. The Joules stored in SnS can not burn out any neural pathways, so no nerve damage. If I shoot you with a Taser and hit you with another Taser while the first Taser is still contracting your voluntary muscles, the effects of the second Taser are not physiologically noticed, until the first Taser ceases to deliver its Joules.

Now I am speaking of the joules generated by the SnS rounds, getting "connected" to a live source of joules ie 110 volt AC is a different story.

If I fired a modded Ares Super Squirt loaded with DMSO and Narcojet would the 10S stack? on Full Auto?

WMS

[Larme]

Toxins are easy. Just look at an LD50 chart. Pharmacological effects, as well as lethality, increase as dosage increases. There is a point of diminishing return, but it's not an instant dropoff.

On electricity, I'm not as well schooled. But you're assuming that one stick-n-shok round delivers the maximum electricity, and that any further would do nothing. But that might not be true. Each one might not deliver the max joules, so additional rounds might add more. Even if that's nonsense, it seems like being shocked in more places would hurt you more. If you get shot in the gut, only part of your body will have the full effect. But if you get shot 3 times in the gut, once in the shoulder, once in the arm, once in the head, and four times on your nads, don't you think the physiological effect would be enhanced?

Also, each bullet might have low wattage, but it doesn't have 0 watts. Each bullet adds more wattage; even if you can't add more joules, increasing the watts would hurt you more wouldn't it?

I guess there's only one way to find out. Get one of those Taser™ wall thingies, shoot yourself with it, and tell me if it hurts more than one taser (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But seriously, the RAW is the RAW, and it's on my side. Though I understand if people want to houserule it for realism, or just to nerf what is a very powerful type of ammo.

[toturi]

If you choose to look at it through your real life lenses, then you'd have to house rule however you wish to fit your vision of how SnS should work. However, if you choose to use SR Physics™, you simply apply the RAW and get on with the game.

[WearzManySkins]

Toxins are easy. Just look at an LD50 chart. Pharmacological effects, as well as lethality, increase as dosage increases. There is a point of diminishing return, but it's not an instant dropoff.

On electricity, I'm not as well schooled. But you're assuming that one stick-n-shok round delivers the maximum electricity, and that any further would do nothing. But that might not be true. Each one might not deliver the max joules, so additional rounds might add more. Even if that's nonsense, it seems like being shocked in more places would hurt you more. If you get shot in the gut, only part of your body will have the full effect. But if you get shot 3 times in the gut, once in the shoulder, once in the arm, once in the head, and four times on your nads, don't you think the physiological effect would be enhanced?

Also, each bullet might have low wattage, but it doesn't have 0 watts. Each bullet adds more wattage; even if you can't add more joules, increasing the watts would hurt you more wouldn't it?

I guess there's only one way to find out. Get one of those Taser™ wall thingies, shoot yourself with it, and tell me if it hurts more than one taser (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But seriously, the RAW is the RAW, and it's on my side. Though I understand if people want to houserule it for realism, or just to nerf what is a very powerful type of ammo.

Joules = Watts X Time

Each SnS delivers a payload of Joules of electric charge, designed to cause all your voluntary muscles to rapidly contract, once the contraction of voluntary muscles have ceased, is when the effects of stun can take effect.

RAW (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) No will not go there.

Using my RL Lenses, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) a Taser causes all voluntary muscles in the targeted being to rapidly contract, causing seizure like muscle jerks, once the voluntary muscles are allowed to relax, ie the Taser's discharge is finished, the subject collapses to the nearest surface typically the ground. Using SR Physics (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) allows even a Troll a chance remain standing, despite what RL Lenses (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) have to say on the matter.

To each there own. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Squinky]

I went and got certified with the new tasers to be an instructor a few years ago. I can tell you that getting hit by more then one dosen't hurt anymore, or cause any further health risks.

So you can be hooked up to 3 guys tasing you and it will still blow ass as much as one guy doing it.

As far as I know, the current tasers don't normally kill people, regardless of how long they are tazed. People get hurt/killed with tazers by falling and other variables usually. Most people.

But SR tasers are different, they do actual damage, and real tasers don't really. The shock effect is pretty close to real. A quick explanation of current tasers is that they send a signal into your body that makes your muscles spams like a son of a bitch, the old ones just shocked people, caused pain compliance....

Anyways, the way we play it, is to simply treat it like any other ammo. Like I said earlier.