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> Upgrading sensor rating?, No idea why a search couldn't find this!
Larme
post Apr 21 2008, 11:58 PM
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Ok, so sensors: upgrading their base rating. How does it work?

At first it seemed like it wasn't even possible. And then I found this little nugget: "If a character improves the ratings of all of the individual components in a sensor package, the overall Sensor rating of the vehicle should also be improved accordingly." What the hell does that mean? Obviously, some sensor components have no rating, so they wouldn't count for this. And if you upgraded every rated sensor to 6, that would improve your vehicle's sensor to 6. So what if you add in an ultrawideband radar sensor? It only goes up to rating 4. So does that mean if you install one, it limits the sensor rating you can have? Or could you turn it off, except when you want to look through walls, in which case you'd be trading the seeing through walls thing for lower sensor?
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WearzManySkins
post Apr 22 2008, 12:00 AM
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From what Synner has stated in some recent posts, there will a system of integrating/upgrading sensors in "future" release.
Search here for Synner posts in the last ~30 days to 45 days.

WMS
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Wasabi
post Apr 22 2008, 04:50 AM
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They are listed in Arsenal but not in the text of the book. Look at the prices of Sensors in the chart at the back and look for "Passive Sensors" and "Active Sensors".
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Synner
post Apr 22 2008, 07:30 AM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Apr 22 2008, 01:00 AM) *
From what Synner has stated in some recent posts, there will a system of integrating/upgrading sensors in "future" release.

What Synner said was that the sensor issue is likely to be addressed in upcoming errata to the SR4 core book and Arsenal by giving the sensors that don't have one a Rating. In the case of cameras, microphones and a few others the Rating will likely equal the max. number of visual and audio enhancements the system will support (rather than overall range and effectiveness),
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wavydavy
post Apr 22 2008, 08:57 AM
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QUOTE (Wasabi @ Apr 22 2008, 12:50 AM) *
They are listed in Arsenal but not in the text of the book. Look at the prices of Sensors in the chart at the back and look for "Passive Sensors" and "Active Sensors".


That's "Sonar", not "Sensors". p186. Which I presume that would be underwater only.
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CanRay
post Apr 22 2008, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 22 2008, 02:30 AM) *
What Synner said was that the sensor issue is likely to be addressed in upcoming errata to the SR4 core book and Arsenal by giving the sensors that don't have one a Rating. In the case of cameras, microphones and a few others the Rating will likely equal the max. number of visual and audio enhancements the system will support (rather than overall range and effectiveness),

And Synner speaks of Synner in the Third Synner?

The Arsenal book, excellent job, BTW!
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Larme
post Apr 22 2008, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 22 2008, 02:30 AM) *
What Synner said was that the sensor issue is likely to be addressed in upcoming errata to the SR4 core book and Arsenal by giving the sensors that don't have one a Rating. In the case of cameras, microphones and a few others the Rating will likely equal the max. number of visual and audio enhancements the system will support (rather than overall range and effectiveness),


Nooooooo! I mean, it's an ok solution. Except that if you start giving a "number of upgrades" rating to cameras and such, instead of capacity, you'll be shattering the streamlineyness of what is so far a streamlined system. So far, everything piece of upgradeable gear has been handled through capacity, except for the modification rules which go through their own system of "slots." I think it would be better to give different ratings for cameras and such, but then give their upgrades a capacity rating so that it stays in step with everything else.

Also, how are you going to deal with the things that are rating 1-3 or rating 1-4? It seems like there's a good reason to limit ultrawideband to 4, so it can't see through ridiculous amounts of stuff. But if you have an ultrawideband on your car, does that mean it limits your sensor package rating to 4?
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BlackHat
post Apr 22 2008, 06:00 PM
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I think you use the rating of whatever sensor you're using. So, trying to pick up a vehicle on your ultrawideband radar? Use sensor 4. Trying to pick the same vehicle up by the scent of its exhaust, use your olfactory sensor rating. Trying to see it with the dashboard camera? Use the visual enhancement rating (you did take visual enhancement, right)?

So, putting a rating 4 sensor on your vehicle doesn't limit your sensor rating... but putting a rating 6 radio signal scanner on your car doesn't increase its odds of visually spotting something, either.
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Synner
post Apr 22 2008, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 22 2008, 01:41 PM) *
Nooooooo! I mean, it's an ok solution. Except that if you start giving a "number of upgrades" rating to cameras and such, instead of capacity, you'll be shattering the streamlineyness of what is so far a streamlined system. So far, everything piece of upgradeable gear has been handled through capacity, except for the modification rules which go through their own system of "slots." I think it would be better to give different ratings for cameras and such, but then give their upgrades a capacity rating so that it stays in step with everything else.

Let me clarify: The idea is as simple as saying that on cameras and audio mikes Rating equals Capacity with each enhancement taking up a 1 Capacity slot.

QUOTE
Also, how are you going to deal with the things that are rating 1-3 or rating 1-4? It seems like there's a good reason to limit ultrawideband to 4, so it can't see through ridiculous amounts of stuff. But if you have an ultrawideband on your car, does that mean it limits your sensor package rating to 4?

For now, Vehicle sensor suits will be handled as described in Arsenal:
a) when using the entire suite for standard Sensors Test (such as those in vehicle combat) the lowest common Rating is used; this assumes that no single sensor can provide enough of a targeting profile/solution or tactical advantage to be used on its own). Errata will likely add a minimum number of sensors that a Vehicle's sensor suite requires to provide effective tactical data and firing solutions.
b) alternately, each sensor may be used separately for the specific function it was designed for (for instance a camera may be used to record a scene, a audio mike may be used to overhear a conversation, radar may be used to scan a building, etc) to provide detailed if limited sensory feedback at its full Rating.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Apr 22 2008, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 22 2008, 07:49 PM) *
Errata will likely add a minimum number of sensors that a Vehicle's sensor suite requires to provide effective tactical data and firing solutions.

..usually, having either a camera or radar works fine for targeting, alone.

Of course, sensors are not exclusive to vehicles - most people just use them to make perception tests... or let sensor software make those tests.
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Larme
post Apr 22 2008, 06:58 PM
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Good call with the capcity thing. Just please make sure that basic sensors like cameras and microphones can go up to 6... I know that on a 1 upgrade = 1 capacity basis, a microphone wouldn't be able to use 6 capacity because there are not enough enhancements, and I don't want my car smacked down to Sensor rating 3 just because I feel like being able to pick up audio with its sensors.

And if I had a rating 6 sensor package except for ultrawideband, I could just switch off the ultrawideband and use my rating of 6 for most things. But when I want to blast someone on the other side of a wall with my machine gun, I have to go with a Sensor of 4, right?

Someone sticky this post! I know it's unofficial, but it seems like it would be a good system to use in the interim before the errata is released.
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WearzManySkins
post Apr 23 2008, 12:16 AM
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Actually the only "usable" part of a vehicle's sensor package is RADAR or LIDAR. Everything else is window dressings. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

FYI the IR sensors are out dated by today's standards, most IR cameras use IR LED's arrays to make an IR Flood light. I do not believe that Thermographics represents FLIR and Thermo Imaging of today.

WMS
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Larme
post Apr 23 2008, 03:32 AM
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Radar can't have a smartlink. But cameras can. So... window dressing? I don't think so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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WearzManySkins
post Apr 23 2008, 05:06 AM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 22 2008, 10:32 PM) *
Radar can't have a smartlink. But cameras can. So... window dressing? I don't think so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) Smartgun links/adapters only fit onto weapons, yes the smartgun link has a camera built in. So where are you reading that cameras can have smartgun links/adapters.

I believe you have it backwards, smartgun links/adapters have cameras, cameras do not have smartgun link/adapters. Yes technically a weapon mounted on a vehicle can have smartgun link/adapter. But the sensors on a vehicle can not have a smartgun link/adapter.

Yes vehicle sensors do not have a image link.

Why would one wish "Gimp" a RADAR/Sensor system with a primitive thing like a smartgun link. The optimal method of getting the information from a vehicles sensors is via a Hot Sim VR.

WMS
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kigmatzomat
post Apr 23 2008, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Apr 23 2008, 01:06 AM) *
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) Smartgun links/adapters only fit onto weapons, yes the smartgun link has a camera built in. So where are you reading that cameras can have smartgun links/adapters.


The Sr4 main book. Particularly:

QUOTE (SR4 p.325)
Camera: The most common sensor, cameras can capture still photos, video, or trideo (including sound). Cameras may also be upgraded with vision enhancements (see p. 323).


And if we check the vision enhancement list:

QUOTE (SR4 p.324, table)
Enhancements
Low Light
Flare Compensation
Image Link
Smartlink
Thermographic
Ultrasound
Vision Enhancement
Vision Magnification


Yup, smartlink, right there.

Smartgun adapters go on the gun and include a camera. Smartlink goes on some form of camera/optic and does the special mojo to display the weapon's point of aim.

Equip a drone's camera with smartlink and the drone gets the same cues that a person with smartlinked eyes would get.

It makes sense in a real-life way because the offset between the coaxially mounted smartgun camera and the drone's smartlinked camera provides additional triangulation abilities, above and beyond that of a trid (stereoscopic) camera. Additionally, the smartgun camera provides data regarding the weapon's aim point that is probably superior to the feedback on the weapon mount's stepper motors.
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Larme
post Apr 23 2008, 09:12 PM
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@Wearz: I guess it would be nice to check the rules before you flap yer mouth, huh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Earlydawn
post Apr 23 2008, 10:09 PM
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So, basically, you can smartlink a drone camera that is not contiguous to an actual weapon system, in order to synchronize them for better accuracy? Nifty.
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Larme
post Apr 23 2008, 10:27 PM
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Smartlinks need two things: the smartgun system, and the smartlink system. The smartgun goes on a weapon, and the smartlink goes in a glasses/eyes/camera. The two could then link together wirelessly. Now, you could hook a smartgun system onto a stick and just point it at people I guess, but... why? To make your stick point more accurately?
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WearzManySkins
post Apr 23 2008, 11:31 PM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 23 2008, 04:12 PM) *
@Wearz: I guess it would be nice to check the rules before you flap yer mouth, huh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yea take your own advise too, like about RADAR not affecting water vapor, and other related BS myths. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

One note:
QUOTE
Vision Enhancers
From hip sunglasses to protective goggles to chic monocles, basic vision enhancers come in several common forms. Binoculars are handheld, with built-in vision magnification; contact lenses are worn directly on the eyes; goggles are relatively large and robust devices that cover the eyes and are strapped to the head; glasses are lightweight frames worn on the bridge of the nose; monocles are worn on a headband with a flip-down arm, or on a chain; and imaging scopes are sometimes mounted on weapons (see p. 311). All such devices have wireless capability, though they may also be directly wired via fiberoptic cable (except contacts).

As stated above the list of items that are Vision Enhancers

Now from Sensor which is what was being taken out of context.
QUOTE
Sensors
Thanks to ubiquitous computing and the propagation of wireless technology, sensors are found almost everywhere.
Cheaply-produced by the billions, miniaturization and integration with other systems have made them often difficult to spot.
Sensor packages combine several types of sensor into one unit. RFID Sensor tags are described on p. 318; microsensors
are the size of a coin or smaller and are used on micro-drones or often disguised as other items; handheld sensors are easily
carried in the palm; Mounted sensors are lunchbox-sized; drone and vehicle sensors are self-explanatory. Each package has a sensor range that indicates the limits of the sensor’s reach (see the Signal Rating Table, p. 212), though some specific sensors have their own maximum ranges.
Each package has a Capacity rating; the total Capacity rating of the individual sensors may not exceed the package’s Capacity rating. If more than one sensor in a package applies to a Sensor Test, use only the highest rating.
Atmosphere Sensor:
Camera: The most common sensor, cameras can capture still photos, video, or trideo (including sound). Cameras may also be upgraded with vision enhancements(see p. 323).
Cyberware Scanner:
Directional Microphone:
Geiger Counter:
Laser Microphone:

Now under Smartgun System
QUOTE
Smartgun System: The smartgun system connects a firearm or projectile weapon directly to a user’s smartlink (see p.
323). It incorporates a laser range finder and a small camera, and keeps track of ammunition, heat buildup, and material
stress. It allows a smartlinked character to mentally switch between gun modes, eject clips, and fire the gun without pulling the trigger. The camera allows for targeted shooting around corners, without exposing oneself to return fire.
The system makes use of advanced calculation software, allowing the user to aim even weapons with a highly ballistic firing arc (like grenades) with tremendous precision over any distance. The smartgun system can also be accessed via wireless link, allowing for the gun to be remotely fired or to
block the trigger (in case an opponent gets ahold of it). When used with a smartlink, it provides a +2 dice pool bonus on the ranged attack test.
Retrofitting a firearm with an internal Smartgun system doubles the weapon’s price. An external smartgun system can be attached to the top mount or underbarrel mount with an Armorer + Logic (4, 1 hour) Extended Test. The small camera can be equipped with vision enhancements (p. 323).

So a smartgun system has a built in camera, now you wish to add another visual input/display into the users FOV? for what a measly +2 dice? and using such is subject to the visibility modifiers on RAW page 117? which can give a maximum dice of ~-10, on perception tests or a Sensor Enhanced Targeting perception of -3 dice. Using Active Targeting one who is a "Real Rigger" can get more than 2 additional dice to the combat test using gunnery.

I guess my riggers are made to Rig/pilot a vehicle not some "passenger" dilettante. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

WMS
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kigmatzomat
post Apr 24 2008, 02:24 AM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Apr 23 2008, 07:31 PM) *
So a smartgun system has a built in camera, now you wish to add another visual input/display into the users FOV?


What, like the cross-hair showing where the gun is pointing is harder for a rigger than a sammie?

QUOTE
for what a measly +2 dice? and using such is subject to the visibility modifiers on RAW page 117? which can give a maximum dice of ~-10, on perception tests or a Sensor Enhanced Targeting perception of -3 dice. Using Active Targeting one who is a "Real Rigger" can get more than 2 additional dice to the combat test using gunnery.


If a new target presents that you absolutely need to engage now rather than spending an IP acquiring lock (use sensor: simple action. Fire weapon: Complex action), those +2 dice sure are handy. Last game session a drake came out of the forest. I managed to avoid being surprised and hit it in the face with a frag grenade from my doberman. Had I used the surprise round to acquire lock it would have slaughtered the technomancer.

Whiler I was thrilled to find out that Arsenal makes radar a standard feature on vehicles, itis an active emitter easily detected by radio signal scanners. I'll keep it turned off on most runs. Same reason I don't use ultrasound except when confronted by thermal smoke; no reason to bring the dogs running.

The "vision enhancement" mod adds to perception tests, and thermo/lowlight/vmag/flarecomp can cancel out a lot of the penalties on p117.

Last, what says the two are incompatible? I can see nothing saying that the +2 smartlink bonus doesn't stack with the active lock bonus dice.
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WearzManySkins
post Apr 24 2008, 03:39 AM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Apr 23 2008, 09:24 PM) *
What, like the cross-hair showing where the gun is pointing is harder for a rigger than a sammie?



If a new target presents that you absolutely need to engage now rather than spending an IP acquiring lock (use sensor: simple action. Fire weapon: Complex action), those +2 dice sure are handy. Last game session a drake came out of the forest. I managed to avoid being surprised and hit it in the face with a frag grenade from my doberman. Had I used the surprise round to acquire lock it would have slaughtered the technomancer.

Whiler I was thrilled to find out that Arsenal makes radar a standard feature on vehicles, itis an active emitter easily detected by radio signal scanners. I'll keep it turned off on most runs. Same reason I don't use ultrasound except when confronted by thermal smoke; no reason to bring the dogs running.

The "vision enhancement" mod adds to perception tests, and thermo/lowlight/vmag/flarecomp can cancel out a lot of the penalties on p117.

Last, what says the two are incompatible? I can see nothing saying that the +2 smartlink bonus doesn't stack with the active lock bonus dice.

FYI today RADARS detect beings/objects in forests. So in SR4 times detect, track and fire, technically you would/could have at least detected/perceived the drake well before it left the forest.

I will take a warning anytime before I have to shoot and scoot.

But that was not your fault, but your GM's he/she is unfamiliar with RADAR's of today. Interesting anecdote but not entirely germane to the subject.

WMS
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Apr 24 2008, 08:56 AM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 23 2008, 11:27 PM) *
Now, you could hook a smartgun system onto a stick and just point it at people I guess, but... why?

Information-guided indirect fire.

So if kids point obvious toy guns at you... shoot them.
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Larme
post Apr 24 2008, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Apr 23 2008, 06:31 PM) *
Yea take your own advise too, like about RADAR not affecting water vapor, and other related BS myths. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Umm... You have me confused with someone else. I have no idea about radar and water vapor, or whatever you're talking about...

QUOTE
So a smartgun system has a built in camera, now you wish to add another visual input/display into the users FOV? for what a measly +2 dice? and using such is subject to the visibility modifiers on RAW page 117? which can give a maximum dice of ~-10, on perception tests or a Sensor Enhanced Targeting perception of -3 dice. Using Active Targeting one who is a "Real Rigger" can get more than 2 additional dice to the combat test using gunnery.


I wish to add another visual input? This is not about me buddy, this is about RAW. RAW says cameras can have vision enhancements. Smartlinks are vision enhancements. Therefore, according to cold, hard logic, divorced from my own subjective opinion, cameras can have smartlinks. No matter how much you try to say that +2 isn't a very important bonus, you cannot alter this basic logical formula: a=b, b=c, a=c. You don't think your rigger needs a smartlink? Good for you, don't buy one. But that doesn't affect anyone else.

In terms of active targetting, I'm pretty sure a smartlink would stack with that. It's basically just the rigger version of Take Aim, and I can't see any reason why a smartlink wouldn't help there, too.
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Sir_Psycho
post Apr 24 2008, 01:26 PM
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So is there a simple way for me to figure out how I raise my GMC Bulldog's Sensor up from 1?
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Apr 24 2008, 02:20 PM
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No. And all Emotitoys will laugh at it.
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