Upgrading sensor rating?, No idea why a search couldn't find this! Options

[Sir_Psycho]

As they emote their amusement.

In all seriousness though, I'm annoyed that there's no RAW way to make myself a kick-arse surveillance van out of a bulldog. Can anyone think of a balanced house-rule?

[kigmatzomat]

FYI today RADARS detect beings/objects in forests. So in SR4 times detect, track and fire, technically you would/could have at least detected/perceived the drake well before it left the forest.
I will take a warning anytime before I have to shoot and scoot.

Yeah, they do detect objects, which is why I didn't have it on. We were in a clearing in a fairly dense forest so radar wouldn't have penetrated very far into the tree line, since it would show me all those trees. Under those conditions radar and ultrasound had no great advantage over visual sensors while potentially giving away our position. It's the same reason people use low-light rather than using a flashlight.

Fortunately, the vision enhancement 3 loaded on the camera gave me 3 bonus dice to notice the drake so I wasn't surprised.

Interesting anecdote but not entirely germane to the subject.

Seems germane since it refuted your comment that the +2 from smartlink was pointless on drones. It gives me +2 dice to shoot a target during surprise without wasting an action on target lock or +2 dice when engaging a different target each IP, which is nice when you have enough gunnery (or big enough guns) to drop a target with each IP without a big sensor lock bonus.

[kigmatzomat]

As they emote their amusement.

In all seriousness though, I'm annoyed that there's no RAW way to make myself a kick-arse surveillance van out of a bulldog. Can anyone think of a balanced house-rule?

We've discussed treating the Sensor rating cost the same as comm's System rating. Sensor reflects the drone's intuition/perception, which is a pretty significant chunk of code. It's not as complicated as the Pilot AI, so System seems like a reasonable guess.

It hasn't been play tested though, so YMMMV.

[Eyeless Blond]

That would make most vehicles default to Sensor 3 rather than Sensor 1. I can't say I have much of a problem with that, though.

[Larme]

I say craft a house rule that follows what Synner has told us will soon become the actual rule in errata.

First, make all sensors have a rating. The cost, if they don't have a rating as currently written, will be Rating x base cost. So for instance a rating 1 camera would be 50, and a rating 6 would be 300. Each point of rating gives one point of capacity. Each upgrade (like lowlight, vision enhancement, etc) costs 1 capacity. I think ratings should stay capped at 6, because riggers will become retardedly accurate otherwise -- If you have 6(8 ) gunnery + 2 smartlink + 6 sensors + 6 for active targetting, that's 20 dice. If you let ratings go up to, say, 12, riggers won't be physically able to miss using active targetting.

[kigmatzomat]

That would make most vehicles default to Sensor 3 rather than Sensor 1. I can't say I have much of a problem with that, though.

I'm not saying that it is the System rating, merely that it costs the same as System. So to upgrade Sensor attribute from 1 to 2 is the same cost as upgrading a comm's System from 1 to 2.

For people who think that's too generous, make Sensor attribute cost the same as Response (rating x250/rating x1000) or Pilot (rating x1000/rating x 2500).

And I really wish they'd differentiate.

Sensor = device that detects
Sensor = drone attribute equivalent to intuition, and for unknown reasons, agility when shooting.
Sensor rating = rating of a device that detects
Sensor rating = range a detector can detect
vision enhancements = upgrades to visual sensors
vision enhancement = specific upgrade that sharpens visual images
audio enhancements = upgrades to audio sensors
audio enhancement = specifc upgrade that clarifies audible sounds

d20 may get a lot of grief for being modifier heavy but at least their lexicon is fairly unambiguous.

[WearzManySkins]

Yeah, they do detect objects, which is why I didn't have it on. We were in a clearing in a fairly dense forest so radar wouldn't have penetrated very far into the tree line, since it would show me all those trees. Under those conditions radar and ultrasound had no great advantage over visual sensors while potentially giving away our position. It's the same reason people use low-light rather than using a flashlight.

Fortunately, the vision enhancement 3 loaded on the camera gave me 3 bonus dice to notice the drake so I wasn't surprised.

Seems germane since it refuted your comment that the +2 from smartlink was pointless on drones. It gives me +2 dice to shoot a target during surprise without wasting an action on target lock or +2 dice when engaging a different target each IP, which is nice when you have enough gunnery (or big enough guns) to drop a target with each IP without a big sensor lock bonus.

Unfortunately it merely shows the average knowledge of RADAR in current days. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) That is why I feel it is not germane.

Current Day RADAR is more than bouncing radio waves off an object and timing the return time/Doppler shift to get range and range rate.

Fact RADAR Systems Today, can detect/track targets in heavily vegetated locales ie forests. So by SR4 time line such RADAR systems are even better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

So if your GM had better understanding of RADARs etc, your drone would have had a "chance" to "see" the Drake inbound. If the drone had succeeded at the test, would you have changed tactics/firing solution? I think you would have.

Also IRL, FLIR and Thermal Imaging can quit easily detect a drake sized creature in heavily vegetated locales. Yes this would be in SR4 a camera function/enhancement. But I can see it being a stand alone device also like IRL. Again this was a issue of a GM unfamiliar with such Thermographic(FLIR/Thermal Imagining) sensors.

Now does Thermographics equal FLIR and Thermal Imaging? No to me it does not. They are stand alone devices not enhancements to cameras.

The House rule about upgrading sensors has been around for a bit, but I get the "feeling" that what Synner is hinting about is will entirely different.

As per Current RAW if you use Sensor Targeting you do not get the dice benefit of Smartgun Links/adapters and vice versa, but House Rule all you want.

WMS

[Larme]

Current Day RADAR is more than bouncing radio waves off an object and timing the return time/Doppler shift to get range and range rate.

Fact RADAR Systems Today, can detect/track targets in heavily vegetated locales ie forests. So by SR4 time line such RADAR systems are even better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Surely though, radar does not tell you what you are looking at. It just tells you the size of the thing, right? Modern radar has good resolution, but it can't tell one person from another, nor a bunny from a big squirrel.

Also IRL, FLIR and Thermal Imaging can quit easily detect a drake sized creature in heavily vegetated locales. Yes this would be in SR4 a camera function/enhancement. But I can see it being a stand alone device also like IRL. Again this was a issue of a GM unfamiliar with such Thermographic(FLIR/Thermal Imagining) sensors.

Now does Thermographics equal FLIR and Thermal Imaging? No to me it does not. They are stand alone devices not enhancements to cameras.

Real life is one thing, but it's not quite relevant to the fictional future, is it?

As per Current RAW if you use Sensor Targeting you do not get the dice benefit of Smartgun Links/adapters and vice versa, but House Rule all you want.

WMS

I don't know where you're getting that from. I think we've very clearly shown that smartlinks are vision enhancements, and that cameras can accept vision enhancements. And cameras are sensors. Therefore, sensors can use smartlinks. And yet you disagree. You seem to dislike basic logical structures...

All you've told us is that when you're using radar, a smartlink wouldn't help, because of some special real life knowledge you have about radar. That's not RAW though. Per RAW, you get to use all your sensors at once. If one of those sensors is a camera, and if it has a smartlink linked to a smartgun, that additional ballstics data gives you an extra bonus. I can't find anything to the contrary in the RAW. I also think you tried to make a point about how smartguns also have cameras in them, and for some reason a camera can't feed ballistic data to another camera? I'm not sure.

Also, smartlinks worked for riggers in SR3. So it's not like this is some new fangled craziness. RAW doesn't disagree, and it's been like this for like 20 years, so I'm pretty sure we can safely say riggers get smartlinks.

[WearzManySkins]

Surely though, radar does not tell you what you are looking at. It just tells you the size of the thing, right? Modern radar has good resolution, but it can't tell one person from another, nor a bunny from a big squirrel.

Real life is one thing, but it's not quite relevant to the fictional future, is it?

I don't know where you're getting that from. I think we've very clearly shown that smartlinks are vision enhancements, and that cameras can accept vision enhancements. And cameras are sensors. Therefore, sensors can use smartlinks. And yet you disagree. You seem to dislike basic logical structures...

All you've told us is that when you're using radar, a smartlink wouldn't help, because of some special real life knowledge you have about radar. That's not RAW though. Per RAW, you get to use all your sensors at once. If one of those sensors is a camera, and if it has a smartlink linked to a smartgun, that additional ballstics data gives you an extra bonus. I can't find anything to the contrary in the RAW. I also think you tried to make a point about how smartguns also have cameras in them, and for some reason a camera can't feed ballistic data to another camera? I'm not sure.

Also, smartlinks worked for riggers in SR3. So it's not like this is some new fangled craziness. RAW doesn't disagree, and it's been like this for like 20 years, so I'm pretty sure we can safely say riggers get smartlinks.

*takes a large crayon and draws big pictures for Larme*
Sensor Targeting on RAW page 162
Look carefully over that page. Where does it say Smartgun link/adapters have any effect on the Sensor + Perception Test(Sensor + Clearsight), or where does it state that smartgun link/adapters provide any additional dice for Sensor Enhanced Targeting?

It also states that sensors use the Signature Table for Sensor Enhanced Targeting, which is what I talking about, not the normal combat tests which use the smartgun link/adapter.

This is a issue that the developers created by intent or happenstance, I do not know. They have extreme tendency to use the same exact term in totally different uses/applications.

I would not have used the term Sensor for things in the Vision Enhancement topics/areas, Vehicle Sensors being the only usage of the term Sensor. That was good until Arsenal came out, and mucked things up even more. But is typically occurs when you have many sources(authors/freelancers) of SR4 materials.

Vision Enhancements et al and Sensors for vehicles are two different things, until Arsenal came out and things got even more less distinct. I can but hope when the much predicted Sensor update comes out as FAQ/Erratta etc it will clear alot of this up, but experience tells me otherwise.

Again your lack of knowledge of RADAR is truly evident. RADAR systems today can track and get more information than you know. Your use of the words Logic Structures....I find extremely humorous.

As for the rest of your Tripe...pfff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Larme]

As I said, you seem to have a problem with basic logic. a=b, b=c, c=d, a=d. That's irrefutable logic. That's what I'm using. Sensors = cameras. Cameras = able to have vision enhancements. Vision enhancement = smartlinks. Sensors = Able to have smartlinks. You can't refute a basic line of reasoning like that without showing one of the equivalencies to be false. You haven't.

Your argument that it doesn't say they work goes nowhere. All the conditions necessary for smartguns to work are there: a smartgun, and a smartlink equipped visual system. Smartlinks have no other preqrequisites. Using vehicle sensors does not magically switch one of those off as you seem to think.

Also, your argument about the Signature Table is a red herring. The Signature Table gives modifiers to ranged combat. It does not eliminate other modifiers because RAW does not say so. It is not ambiguous. Modifiers are based on the sensors you're using. If you target based entirely on cameras, which you can do, normal vision modifiers would apply. Radar might eliminate those, it's not clear.

You can tell us that vision enhancements on glasses are different from vision enhancements on vehicle sensor cameras all you want, but you're wrong as per RAW. A rigger can look through a camera to see what's outside his vehicle. That camera can have lowlight, utlrasound, a smartlink -- ANY vision enhancement. And it works the same. You are simply making things up based on your preference for play. You can make a false distinction between the two if you want, but you shouldn't confuse people by pretending RAW supports you.

[WearzManySkins]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
I disagree have fun.

Such Logical Structures were used by Theologians and Religious Scholars to Determine "how many angels can dance on a head of a pin". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[kigmatzomat]

Unfortunately it merely shows the average knowledge of RADAR in current days. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) That is why I feel it is not germane. Current Day RADAR is more than bouncing radio waves off an object and timing the return time/Doppler shift to get range and range rate. Fact RADAR Systems Today, can detect/track targets in heavily vegetated locales ie forests. So by SR4 time line such RADAR systems are even better.

Without specific rules to the contrary, I see no reason to give some magic ability for radar to detect slow moving creatures that have the similar densities and compositions to their very cluttered and dense environment. I think the motion sensor is magic enough as it is. Although I see nothing in the RAW that makes the -3 signature modifier from creatures not apply to radar.

Vehicles would be a different matter entirely since edge detection, reflectance and variable frequency response would come into play. But if there was a vehicle, then by Arsenal the default sensors on it would ID the radar pretty easily.

Also IRL, FLIR and Thermal Imaging can quit easily detect a drake sized creature in heavily vegetated locales. Yes this would be in SR4 a camera function/enhancement. But I can see it being a stand alone device also like IRL. Again this was a issue of a GM unfamiliar with such Thermographic(FLIR/Thermal Imagining) sensors.

Normally I'd agree, and my cameras have IR for that reason. But the ambient temperature was over 100F in this mid-summer "go guard the mage collecting rare ritual sorcery materials in the god forsaken wilderness on the edge of the Tir border" run.

Not that it would have been a lot different if we'd have been doing the same run in downtown seattle and instead of a drake in the forest it had been a citymaster behind solid buildings.

Now does Thermographics equal FLIR and Thermal Imaging? No to me it does not. They are stand alone devices not enhancements to cameras.

Spliting hairs. If you could get a FLIR or thermoptic sensor module small enough to fit into a cell phone, it would be integrated. By RAW, sonar (aka ultrasound) is a vision mod. Other than size, there's no technical reason that FLIR, thermoptic, or even radar would be any more difficult to integrate into a camera than sonar. It shows ambient light video to the user with overlays from the other sensors.

As per Current RAW if you use Sensor Targeting you do not get the dice benefit of Smartgun Links/adapters and vice versa, but House Rule all you want.

I see nothing in the rules disallowing them to work together, although I haven't dug through Arsenal fully.

Sensor Targeting provides a bonus to the shot, probably by accurately identifying the target with a bounding box and then showing a predicted path of motion. The normal targeting reticle would indicate the weapon's assumed point of aim; smartlink would improve the accuracy of the targeting reticle placement.

[WearzManySkins]

Without specific rules to the contrary, I see no reason to give some magic ability for radar to detect slow moving creatures that have the similar densities and compositions to their very cluttered and dense environment. I think the motion sensor is magic enough as it is. Although I see nothing in the RAW that makes the -3 signature modifier from creatures not apply to radar.

Today we have penetration, in SR4 with the magic levels of tech, definite. Motion sensors are even better than SR4, there are imaging systems that detect and track movement, so not all motion detecting sensors are non cameras. I agree about the -3 signature modifier from creatures.

Vehicles would be a different matter entirely since edge detection, reflectance and variable frequency response would come into play. But if there was a vehicle, then by Arsenal the default sensors on it would ID the radar pretty easily.

Doppler Shift/Roll Off, Phase Shift, etc.

Normally I'd agree, and my cameras have IR for that reason. But the ambient temperature was over 100F in this mid-summer "go guard the mage collecting rare ritual sorcery materials in the god forsaken wilderness on the edge of the Tir border" run.

Today Thermal Imaging Systems, can track Illegal Border Crossings with ambient temperatures in the 110F in a desert in Arizona. But again does Thermographic equal Thermal Imaging/FLIR? Modern Thermo detection systems deal with the ambient temperatures, again in SR4 tech yes it can be done.

Spliting hairs. If you could get a FLIR or thermoptic sensor module small enough to fit into a cell phone, it would be integrated. By RAW, sonar (aka ultrasound) is a vision mod. Other than size, there's no technical reason that FLIR, thermoptic, or even radar would be any more difficult to integrate into a camera than sonar. It shows ambient light video to the user with overlays from the other sensors.

SONAR technically is acoustical sound propagation in a fluid medium, and no it is not all in the ultrasound range. Tripple Frequency Bottom Bounce Mode makes ocean water glow. SONAR was a misused term in the ultrasound example/usage.

To me the non visual detection methods, ie Thermal Imaging, FLIR, RADAR, SONAR, Ultrasound mounted in a vehicle, it does not make sensor to try and put them in a camera, the Riggers Vehicle Interface would give that non visual information in a usable format with the need of a camera. Yes a camera should also be integrated into the Vehicle Interface.

I see nothing in the rules disallowing them to work together, although I haven't dug through Arsenal fully.

*Shrugs* working together and occupying a single visual oriented device does not make sense. Putting all of ones Eggs in one Basket syndrome.

Sensor Targeting provides a bonus to the shot, probably by accurately identifying the target with a bounding box and then showing a predicted path of motion. The normal targeting reticle would indicate the weapon's assumed point of aim; smartlink would improve the accuracy of the targeting reticle placement.

Depends if it displayed in a VR type of environment, a VR interface using the combined inputs of all the vehicles sensors et all, does not have to resemble a reticle or boxes. Being VR it could be the Rigger creates a self image of himself and walks over, rips off a door and reveals the target, then shoots it with his "Shotgun".

WMS

[WearzManySkins]

One interesting note:

If you have chosen the Camera Sensor as your "baseline device" to install, Low Light, Thermo, Vision Mag, Vision Enhancement, Smartgun link.

The Camera Jammer in Arsenal will have lots of fun with that "baseline device" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Flare Compensation will stop it dead, though.

That does not change the fact that it's completly broken as it rolls double it's rating when all other devices just roll their rating... and it still is an abomination that will blind every person in range.

[WearzManySkins]

Flare Compensation will stop it dead, though.

That does not change the fact that it's completly broken as it rolls double it's rating when all other devices just roll their rating... and it still is an abomination that will blind every person in range.

Hmm from what I recall flare compensation only limits the amount of flare/glare, does not totally remove the effects.

WMS

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It removes the Glare Modifier entirely.

[WearzManySkins]

Hmm RAW says different in the case of
RAW page 313
Flash Pak -4 dice (flare comp reduces mod to -2)

Does a camera jammer have the effects of a Glare or a Flash Pak? Again RAW does not say either way.

WMS

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The Flashpack is another modifier, not the Glare Modifier per Visibility Table.

And that's the only modifier available to it without defining another.

[kigmatzomat]

Of course a camera loaded with thermograph or ultrasound will still be functional since it beams a "laser" of "white light" at the camera. White light has no impact against the thermographic or ultrasound sensor.

Anybody see a rule about how many cameras it can target? Per arsenal, the typical vehicle has two cameras (front and rear) so I could see overwhelming the thing with targets.

I am surprised that small drone Signature doesn't apply to the detection test since a camera should be much harder to find than entire drones.

[WearzManySkins]

The Flashpack is another modifier, not the Glare Modifier per Visibility Table.

And that's the only modifier available to it without defining another.
Emphasis mine

Camera Neutralizer: Th is system uses infrared lasers and photo-detecting transistors to scan an area for the reflectivity and shape of the image-producing sensors used in digital cameras. Once a camera is located, the system points a laser directly into the camera, overloading it with white light and rendering images, video, and trideo useless. Celebrities often use this system to defeat paparazzi, as do some secure installations that hope to defeat surveillance measures.

Flare Compensation: This protects the user from blinding flashes of light as well as simple glare. Flare compensation
also protects users with thermographic vision from heat flashes and glare from infrared lighting. It eliminates the vision modifiers for glare.

Flash-Pak: The size of a pack of cigarettes, this unit contains four quartz-halogen micro-flashes designed to fire in random strobe sequences to disorient, distract, and blind opponents. Anyone facing a flash-pak receives a –4 dice pool modifier on attack tests due to the intense glare (flare compensation reduces this modifier to –2).

Ok the camera neutralizer is not merely flashing the camera but continuously focusing a laser beam of intense overloading "white light". Said beam of white light is not listed as glare or flash ergo flare compensation will have at best reduced effect or no effect. Since the Flash Pak is an example of why flare compensation can not deal with fairly continuous intense bursts of light.

from this PDF in this link
White Light Lasers

White light lasers, covering the whole visible range from blue, green, yellow, red, into the infrared, have been developed.

That resolves the question of whether or not the camera neutralizer affects thermographics. Since it can be done today but at great costs and power, in SR4 it is and would be cheap and easy to make such a laser and include the IR range for a mere pittance of the costs.

I agree that Ultrasound sensors would not be affected by camera neutralizers.

WMS

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Said beam of white light is not listed as glare or flash ergo flare compensation will have at best reduced effect or no effect.

If it's not Glare, it has no mechanical effects at all. Which, given it is a complete abomination, is fine, too.

[Larme]

Actually, as far as I can tell, the neutralizer totally disables a camera. It doesn't impose a modifier. Flare comp doesn't appear to have any effect. You can write it out of your game if you don't like it Rotbart, but don't confuse other people by saying you're following RAW. The RAW says that it neutralizes cameras, anything to the contrary is of course not RAW.

[Earlydawn]

WMS, are there any good online resources to learn about principles of RADAR / LIDAR, jamming, etc? Google turns up relatively little.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Flare comp doesn't appear to have any effect.

By RAW, it protects the user from 'blinding flashes of light as well as simple glare' - so it does remove the effect of a camera neutralizer entirely. If it wouldn't the camera neutralizer would have to list exceptions to that.
Given the fact that a laser is used, this is technically very simple, as selecting the correct polarization filter will do. Of course, a correct polarization filter will also mean that it won't be detected by the infrared laser used for scanning in the first place...