Melee vs Ranged, Balancing the two Options

[kzt]

He's a bullshit artist, not an "expert". You'll notice that he has written no peer reviewed publications. That's because his research consists of "I made up everything I didn't read in gun magzines".

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY

FBI's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectivness"

[CanRay]

"A person that brings a knife to a gunfight is either an idiot, or very, very good."

Wish I could remember where this quote came from.

[Aaron]

I had a melee artist and a gun bunny in a game once. After a big fight, the player of the gun bunny pointed out that he'd had more attacks over the course of the fight. The player of the melee artist pointed out that she hadn't blown through several hundred nuyen over the course of the fight.

[CanRay]

Marlboro: "You know, that gun costs about two dollars every time you fire it. That's two bucks a bullet."
Harley Davidson: "Well how many'd I hit?"
Marlboro: "You spent twelve dollars and didn't hit a goddamn thing. I nailed one and it cost about four and a quarter."

[WeaverMount]

It's been said before that the reason that Melee and ranged aren't balanced is that melee and range aren't balanced. If you don't like I would recommend not changing the mechanics, but doing the only thing that has made melee combat prevalent in RL. Gun Control. However you feel about it, whatever you think it does or doesn't do to a society, institutions of power can make having and using guns problematic and less desirable, even for criminals. You can't realistically make melee comparable to range except by artificially stacking the deck to increase the prevalence the few conditions where it is better.

[Zen Shooter01]

Melee is inferior to ranged in reality. That's why military units traded spears for rifles.

[WeaverMount]

Yes and they still train some in hand to hand because it does come up, and a little train is still absolutely worth the effort.

In area's and era guns are repressed and unavailable you still see crazy good martial artists like in south east Asia, and Feudal Japan. You would have to break the setting but if you take SR4 more in an Orwellian vain and less in a social chaos sort of way, you could do it

[CanRay]

Melee is inferior to ranged in reality. That's why military units traded spears for rifles.

No, they upgraded the spear, that also has a Top-Mounted Musket. Bayonets! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Glyph]

I would strongly recommend against changing the defense pools for ranged attacks. The big, huge difference between ranged attacks and melee is that melee is a pretty straight opposed test, but ranged combat faces many, many potential negative modifiers. And there are already rules penalizing shooters in melee situations.

Personally, I don't find melee underpowered at all. Between 'ware, adept abilities, and martial arts techniques, not to mention weapon foci, you can make a melee master who is extremely effective. And since your melee ability is part of your defense pool, someone good at melee is also less likely to be hit by opponents.

A ranged fighter with a dice pool of 16 going up against 5 mooks with a dice pool of 6 will have to be careful not to get shot while he's taking them out, and will be lucky if he escapes unwounded. A melee fighter with a dice pool of 16 going up against 5 mooks with a dice pool of 6 will be likely to overwhelm them and escape unscathed.

[Daier Mune]

No, it's not that either.

It's that the bullet puts a hole all the way through your body, destroying or damaging whatever organs it hits, and often causing all sorts of internal bleeding. Bigger bullets make a bigger wound channel, bullets that expand or tumble make even bigger would channels. The more tissue that is destroyed the more likely it is that something important (like your liver, aorta or spinal cord) gets damaged. It doesn't correlate well to KE or momentum.

If you could punch you fist through someone's chest and out the back (through the ribs, their lungs/heart, and through the ribs again) that be roughly the damage that a close range shotgun hit does. I strongly suspect that nobody can actually punch like that in the real world, not matter what the karate "black belt in a year" guy tells you.

uh...yeah. i guess thats like saying "its not the fall that kills you, its the sudden stop at the end."

yes. the bullet kills you by means of severing your arteries, organs and whathaveyou. however, a bullet can not do all of that without having the proper kinetic energy behind it.

[underaneonhalo]

I haven't had any problems with melee being underpowered. Other people have already stated why they think the same thing so I won't waste more space than it takes to say I agree.

That said here's some fun things!
An incomplete list of about 600 boxers who died in the ring.
-and-
The Wikipedia article on hydrostatic shock, just one of the nasty things that happens when you get shot.

[Shiloh]

I disagree. Whats the force contained in a bullet vs the force contained in a solid punch/kick.

Now let's see. I'll stand here and let you punch me. You stand there and let me shoot you. We'll take turns...

Or did I miss the smiley?

[HentaiZonga]

Now let's see. I'll stand here and let you punch me. You stand there and let me shoot you. We'll take turns...

Or did I miss the smiley?

Force != pressure

Your average human lower arm (the part that's actually moving rigidly at full speed) weighs in at 2 kg. A good punch can get that going up to about 80 m/s.

On the other hand, a bullet can get up around 900 meters per second, and weighs around 5g (0.005 kg).

Now, assuming they're both decelerating by the same amount (probably not true, but a useful handwave), let's say 50 miliseconds, you're looking at

2.000 x 80 / 0.05 = 3200 N for the fist.
vs.
0.005 x 900 / 0.05 = 90 N for the bullet.

This is why, for example, you can easily knock someone down with a punch, but (except for in the movies) bullets don't typically send people flying.

The trick isn't force; it's pressure, impulse, and rigidity. Hell, I can generate far more force than a bullet just by leaning on you.

[Fuchs]

Melee is inferior to ranged IRL also. I don't see any reason to make them equivalent methods of combat. Melee has its own advantages (maneuvers, high DV values possible, completely legal, quieter).

Exactly. Guns should beat melee, it's why we fight with guns and not swords today.

[ElFenrir]

As much as i'm for melee, again, i think each one has it's good and bad things that outweigh the other.

Now, on the boxers killed in the ring; it certainly does happen. However, Im willing to bet that most(not all, im sure a couple died on one), had already taken alot of hits in their careers for one and it just took their toll; or even if they were new, it didn't happen in the first round. When you think about it, it's like taking your head, taking a chair leg, wrapping a little padding around it and beating yourself in the head for 21 minutes with it(3 minute rounds time say, 7 rounds). Something might indeed happen by then. Can melee combat in real life be fatal? Absolutely. I mean, im far from strong. Im a wimp actually. But if I ran at someone with a combat knife and stuck them, they would be hurting pretty damned badly, and could possibly die from it. (But then again, it's a game. It doesn't, and shouldn't, IMO, copy real life to a T.)

Now, of course, in Shadowrun we have a guy with bones laced with metal and muscle augmentation that probably makes him over twice as strong as a professional boxer. Or, well, magic, naturally. Yeah, I can buy this why melee DVs can be damned high. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shiloh]

Force != pressure

Your average human lower arm (the part that's actually moving rigidly at full speed) weighs in at 2 kg. A good punch can get that going up to about 80 m/s.

On the other hand, a bullet can get up around 900 meters per second, and weighs around 5g (0.005 kg).

Now, assuming they're both decelerating by the same amount (probably not true, but a useful handwave), let's say 50 miliseconds, you're looking at

2.000 x 80 / 0.05 = 3200 N for the fist.
vs.
0.005 x 900 / 0.05 = 90 N for the bullet.

This is why, for example, you can easily knock someone down with a punch, but (except for in the movies) bullets don't typically send people flying.

The trick isn't force; it's pressure, impulse, and rigidity. Hell, I can generate far more force than a bullet just by leaning on you.

The point of me using a quote tag was so you could see the context of what was being said. Tarantula was being pointlessly vague in defining things, so I attempted to cut to the core of the issue: would you rather be punched or shot? Me, I'd rather be punched by pretty much *anyone* than shot by pretty much *any* firearm.

SR *does* change that. I think I'd rather be shot by a light pistol twice than punched by Killinghandstrolladept just the once, thanks. My armour jacket will basically turn the light ammo into a punch from a normal chap. I'll be in two bits after the Troll is finished with me.

One of the advantages of the firearm is that it allows a relatively unskilled person to apply lethal force. It's where early firearms scored over longbows. If Wellington's red coats had had longbows and the skills to use them at Waterloo, it wouldn't have been a "damn fine run thing", but it was impossible to raise and maintain an army of the size that Wellington had with the weapon skills the Agincourt archers had.

SR maintains this: anyone can contribute to a firefight, but if you join in a melee without leet skillz you're pate.

[Fuchs]

One of the advantages of the firearm is that it allows a relatively unskilled person to apply lethal force. It's where early firearms scored over longbows. If Wellington's red coats had had longbows and the skills to use them at Waterloo, it wouldn't have been a "damn fine run thing", but it was impossible to raise and maintain an army of the size that Wellington had with the weapon skills the Agincourt archers had.

SR maintains this: anyone can contribute to a firefight, but if you join in a melee without leet skillz you're pate.

But if you apply the same skill training you need to become lethal with a melee weapon to a ranged weapon, you become even more effective.

[Aaron]

Really, there are only two kinds of weapons: those that kill, and those that kill with a little more effort. Weapons don't fight each other, people do.

[Tarantula]

Now let's see. I'll stand here and let you punch me. You stand there and let me shoot you. We'll take turns...

Ok, but lets have Mike Tyson (or whoever the super boxer ATM is) punching you, with no gloves, and you don't get to defend yourself. Still take the deal?

[Critias]

Ok, but lets have Mike Tyson (or whoever the super boxer ATM is) punching you, with no gloves, and you don't get to defend yourself. Still take the deal?

Depends. Do I get to go first?

[Tarantula]

Depends. Do I get to go first?

Nah, remember, melee is underpowered, it should go first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Oracle]

I'd rather not be punched in the face by Mike Tyson. But as a matter of fact I would prefer it to being shot into the face with a 9mm.

[Tarantula]

See, and I'd argue the shooting should come from average shooting distances, and not melee ranges. Which increases the chances of a bad shot/miss.

[cryptoknight]

Nah, remember, melee is underpowered, it should go first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

I'd take you up on that... I think a single blow from Iron Mike would hurt like a mofo... and would really mess me up.

Then I'd shoot him in his punching arm with a .45 ACP. Right at about the elbow.

[cryptoknight]

See, and I'd argue the shooting should come from average shooting distances, and not melee ranges. Which increases the chances of a bad shot/miss.

Not if he has to stand there and let me shoot him without ducking. since I have to let him land the punch.

If I had to stand at 20 ft or so and shoot him, I'd change the shot and go for a body shot... .45 ACP again. He might get around to punching me the second time... but after two rounds to the chest/abdominal cavity.. I really doubt he'd be able to try for round 3.