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Muspellsheimr
Melee is commonly considered inferior to ranged because you first have to close the distance, and is resisted with two dice pools (three on full defense), as opposed to range's one (two on full defense).

I am currently considering a way to balance them, and am asking for what you would see as the pro's and con's.

Make ranged defense work as Reaction+Dodge, with full defense Reaction+Dodge+Dodge/Gymnastics.

The primary cons I can currently see with the issue are as follows:
Dodge may become a must-have skill
How having two pools on regular defense will stack with cover.


I decided to try decreasing the power of ranged instead of increasing that of melee (by removing one of the defensive pools) because Shadowrun is the first game system I have seen that takes parrying into account, and I see no reasonable reason to remove it.
Tarantula
Melee is inferior to ranged IRL also. I don't see any reason to make them equivalent methods of combat. Melee has its own advantages (maneuvers, high DV values possible, completely legal, quieter).
ArkonC
I would allow characters in melee with a ranged combatant to defend against it like it was a melee attack, thus adding Dodge/Close Combat skill...
This would keep the advantage of ranged combat when you have range, but make melee the undisputed master of... Well... Melee...
But I don't think this fix alone would bring them up to par, a lot of the problem also stems from the fact that shooting is a simple action while hitting is a complex one, changing melee attacks to simple actions would make it much more balanced too...

Disclaimer: these are just ideas I'm throwing out there, an appart from a gut feeling I cannot prove nor disprove anything about them...
ZenGamer
Exactly... Why do you think punching someone would do as much damage as shooting them?

Now, when it comes to melee weapons, I could see how you might think a sword could equal a pistol in damage, which is why I generally add 1 to the DV of all melee weapons. But unarmed combat shouldn't be particularly lethal.
Tarantula
QUOTE (ZenGamer @ Apr 23 2008, 12:28 PM) *
Exactly... Why do you think punching someone would do as much damage as shooting them?

Now, when it comes to melee weapons, I could see how you might think a sword could equal a pistol in damage, which is why I generally add 1 to the DV of all melee weapons. But unarmed combat shouldn't be particularly lethal.


I disagree. Whats the force contained in a bullet vs the force contained in a solid punch/kick.
Speed Wraith
Geeze, melee has been pretty vicious in my games so far...though I do like the idea of using melee-style defense pools when defending against a point-blank attack.
ElFenrir
True enough. Im a huge fan of melee over ranged generally in SR just due to the style(though I do like to pull out more gun-types now and again.)

I can see where some problems are; but they do have other advanages, like Tarantula pointed out.

Melee +'s:

Quiet. (Ok, so you can silence some guns, too, but ill count that there.)

Very high DVs possible, and you don't need to have super strength to get that far; a little old man who'se a master can have a crazy high DV. Making a melee master can easily have DVs in the sniper rifle range with little minmaxing or sacrifice involved.

Lots of manuvers; the Riposte manuver is amazing in itself, allowing the takedown of several people if you're defenses are good enough. All the manuvers about are good.

Lots of martial arts styles to give other benefits as well.

While it can certainly leave behind blood, it generally doesn't leave behind ammo.

Impact armor, on average, is lower than Ballistic on most armor. (yes, there are little addons like shin and forearm guards that can help, but typically, yeah.)

And yeah, somehow, even though Gene 'God Hand' hits harder than a truck, he doesn't need to register his fist.

Melee -'s:

Complex action. Unless you're ready to do alot of action-borrowing and have defensive manuvers(read; Riposte), you aren't attacking as often.

Have to be close, naturally. A troll with a polearm(+3 reach) still has to be close. And have to be close means you have to close in, usually in a dangerous situation unless you have a good stealth skill and are ninja climbing on the ceiling.

Defender does indeed get more stuff to defend with; however, this you could almost see as the tradeoff factor of a well built melee guy having a higher DV to hit with.


Firearms +'s:

Many times, a simple action. Lots of Semiautomatic and Burst-fire options.

It basically guarentees a free +2 die pool with a smartlink.

You attack from range.

Silenced, it can be quiet(though not as quiet as melee), but not every gun is like this.

Some guns have insane range indeed.

Less dice to defend with.

Variety of ammo; AV and AP take care of that pesky ballistic armor.

Options like supressive fire can make it a literal pain in the ass for melee to close.

Hiding and firing behind cover is always an option.

Firearm -'s:

You need licences for them, generally. Even though they are cheap and not that tough to get, you need to have em.

Louder on average, even a silenced gun isn't as quiet as someone sending a knife-hand through someone's throat.

Within 3 meters, the minuses start piling up. Firing into melee with your friends there is likewise a bad idea.

Generally, lower DVs, unless you get into The Big Guns, and even then.

(I can't say ''leaves behind evidence'', however, since i hear all guns are caseless these days. Unsure here.)

Specialized ammo is more expensive and hard to come by; making Ballistic armor still a pain in the ass sometimes.

Only one martial art really devoted to firearms.

Guns have ammo. Ammo can run out. 'God Hand' Gene's fist isn't running out unless it's cut off. And then he still has his other fist and two feet. And his head.

Guns have to be smuggled past security. So do knives and swords, but that's the beauty of ceramic blades.


And there are ones im missing. Honestly, they sorta even each other out; though I have to say Firearms indeed have some goodies on their side(the being able to lay down supressive fire to hold back melee folks and shoot from almost full cover from a good distance is really excellent.) But at the same time, so is having a very deadly, perfectly legal and quiet method of dealing with problems.







Kyoto Kid
...another disadvantage is that a single melee attack is a complex action while someone with a semiauto or burst fire weapon can squeeze two shots/burst off in an IP.

Finally there is firing a ranged weapon when engaged in, or into a melee scrum. I think this should incur stiffer modifiers. Also, if you glitch, you have a 50/50 chance to shoot yourself or your ally (if firing into melee) or miss entirely. If you critical glitch, you shoot yourself or your ally.

QUOTE (ZenGamer)
Why do you think punching someone would do as much damage as shooting them?

...Critical Strike Adept power, Bone Lacing Cyberware, Bone Density Bioware, Killing hands Adept power.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 23 2008, 01:26 PM) *
Melee is inferior to ranged IRL also. I don't see any reason to make them equivalent methods of combat. Melee has its own advantages (maneuvers, high DV values possible, completely legal, quieter).


IRL, it is a bad idea to take a knife to a gun fight. However, it is an equally bad idea to bring a gun into a knife fight. Melee combat is not inferior, it simply takes a bit more training to be effective than firearms, and lacking the range, has a disadvantage made up for with it's increased versatility.

QUOTE (ArkonC @ Apr 23 2008, 01:28 PM) *
I would allow characters in melee with a ranged combatant to defend against it like it was a melee attack, thus adding Dodge/Close Combat skill...
This would keep the advantage of ranged combat when you have range, but make melee the undisputed master of... Well... Melee...
But I don't think this fix alone would bring them up to par, a lot of the problem also stems from the fact that shooting is a simple action while hitting is a complex one, changing melee attacks to simple actions would make it much more balanced too...

Disclaimer: these are just ideas I'm throwing out there, an appart from a gut feeling I cannot prove nor disprove anything about them...


Yes, you should be able to parry a gun in melee.
As for firearms taking a simple action, I don't want to change to much until I know how the first small change works, and so am currently running under the assumption that the martial arts will make up for it being a complex action.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 23 2008, 12:46 PM) *
IRL, it is a bad idea to take a knife to a gun fight. However, it is an equally bad idea to bring a gun into a knife fight. Melee combat is not inferior, it simply takes a bit more training to be effective than firearms, and lacking the range, has a disadvantage made up for with it's increased versatility.


Not really, it isn't. Assuming both fighters have their weapons ready, gun wins. And, in the case of when shadowrunners need to fight, generally, they can have their weapons ready ahead of time.
kzt
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 23 2008, 12:37 PM) *
I disagree. Whats the force contained in a bullet vs the force contained in a solid punch/kick.

Energy of a bullet is a useless number, always has been. How many kids did you kill in fistfights in school? How many of your friends got killed in a fistfight? Did anyone you know get killed in a fistfight? Without a secondary event, like falling down and breaking their skull, or having 4 guys stomp on him for a few minutes?
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 23 2008, 01:37 PM) *
I disagree. Whats the force contained in a bullet vs the force contained in a solid punch/kick.



Not about Force, it's about Kinetic Energy.

Ke = 1/2 MV^2 and all that.

Mass * Velocity Squared. Yes the bullet is small... but the Bullet comes out of the gun with way more velocity than a Punch could ever have, and you square it to get Kinetic Energy. Ke is what hurts you when the punch lands or the bullet hits you.
Tarantula
How many kids can actually punch equally well as a professional such as a boxer/kickboxer?
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 23 2008, 01:49 PM) *
Not really, it isn't. Assuming both fighters have their weapons ready, gun wins. And, in the case of when shadowrunners need to fight, generally, they can have their weapons ready ahead of time.


The average man can close 20 feet and attack with a bladed weapon before a trained officer can draw and fire a handgun. Handguns, when you have distance, are generally superior for obvious reasons. However, a gun in melee range is significantly more difficult to hit with, and easier to disarm, than a knife. Add that a pocket knife can easily equal or exceed the damage of a 22 round.

Yes, firearms have a distinct disadvantage in a knife fight, similar to how knives have a disadvantage in a gunfight.
ZenGamer
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 23 2008, 03:37 PM) *
I disagree. Whats the force contained in a bullet vs the force contained in a solid punch/kick.


I assume by force you mean energy, and a bullet transfers far more energy than a punch. Kinetic energy is .5*mass*velocity^2, meaning velocity is a far greater factor than mass.

A punch transfers roughly half the kinetic energy of a bullet.

Edit: Wow, I was late to the party!
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (ZenGamer @ Apr 23 2008, 02:01 PM) *
A punch transfers roughly half the kinetic energy of a bullet.

True, and a punch is spread over a larger area, resulting in greater distribution, decreasing the raw power even further. But this can work to your advantage sometimes - greater chance of knockdown, and less chance of the attack simply passing through the body leaving a nice little hole that doesn't do much.
ZenGamer
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 23 2008, 03:52 PM) *
How many kids can actually punch equally well as a professional such as a boxer/kickboxer?


How many boxers/kickboxers kill someone in a single blow to the body or head? Not many.

But how many people who get shot in the body or head die? Most.
ZenGamer
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 23 2008, 04:04 PM) *
True, and a punch is spread over a larger area, resulting in greater distribution, decreasing the raw power even further. But this can work to your advantage sometimes - greater chance of knockdown, and less chance of the attack simply passing through the body leaving a nice little hole that doesn't do much.


Exactly, hence less damage (generally) and the fact of it being stun rather than physical.
Speed Wraith
QUOTE (ZenGamer @ Apr 23 2008, 03:06 PM) *
How many boxers/kickboxers kill someone in a single blow to the body or head? Not many.

But how many people who get shot in the body or head die? Most.


Your first statement is true, excepting Chuck Norris of course. The second? Not so much. I read an article about drug-runners getting into shootouts with feds and border patrol officers in Baja. Turns out that at anything further than point-blank range firearms are more likely to disable than kill. One suspect was shot 20+ times with a variety of calibres (9mm, .45 and 12 gauge buckshot IIRC). Of course people can easily be killed by a single bullet to the right spot, but in the heat of a firefight that's going to be the result of pure luck more often than not.

On a personal level, I think I'd rather face a poorly trained rent-a-cop with a light or heavy pistol than a poorly trained orc with a combat axe (in SR of course, IRL I'd simply zig-zag away from the firearm and run like hell from the axe nyahnyah.gif)
Tarantula
QUOTE (ZenGamer @ Apr 23 2008, 01:06 PM) *
How many boxers/kickboxers kill someone in a single blow to the body or head? Not many.

But how many people who get shot in the body or head die? Most.


How many boxers/kickboxers go around fighting people and punch them full out without gloves on? Not many.

Edit: I'll agree that the fact that unarmed does stun damage is enough to show the difference in power between unarmed and firearms.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 23 2008, 12:56 PM) *
The average man can close 20 feet and attack with a bladed weapon before a trained officer can draw and fire a handgun. Handguns, when you have distance, are generally superior for obvious reasons. However, a gun in melee range is significantly more difficult to hit with, and easier to disarm, than a knife. Add that a pocket knife can easily equal or exceed the damage of a 22 round.

Yes, firearms have a distinct disadvantage in a knife fight, similar to how knives have a disadvantage in a gunfight.


Read what I said again. Assuming both fighters have their weapons ready.

And in SR, this is moot, since via the initiative system, you can be chest to chest, and yet someone can quickdraw and fire their weapon into you twice before you get a chance to punch/knife/whatever them.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Speed Wraith @ Apr 23 2008, 02:11 PM) *
On a personal level, I think I'd rather face a poorly trained rent-a-cop with a light or heavy pistol than a poorly trained orc with a combat axe (in SR of course, IRL I'd simply zig-zag away from the firearm and run like hell from the axe nyahnyah.gif)

Another point to bring up about firearms - the average handgun is accurate to aprox. 15 feet without a good amount of training. Moving targets, even moving directly away, makes a shot significantly more difficult. Running away in a zig-zag pattern, the typical firearm user would have to be quite lucky (or you be unlucky) to hit you - and if you do get hit, it will rarely be more than disabling, and most often simply painful.

EDIT: Maybe we could get this thread back to the original topic?
kzt
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Apr 23 2008, 12:52 PM) *
Mass * Velocity Squared. Yes the bullet is small... but the Bullet comes out of the gun with way more velocity than a Punch could ever have, and you square it to get Kinetic Energy. Ke is what hurts you when the punch lands or the bullet hits you.

No, it's not that either.

It's that the bullet puts a hole all the way through your body, destroying or damaging whatever organs it hits, and often causing all sorts of internal bleeding. Bigger bullets make a bigger wound channel, bullets that expand or tumble make even bigger would channels. The more tissue that is destroyed the more likely it is that something important (like your liver, aorta or spinal cord) gets damaged. It doesn't correlate well to KE or momentum.

If you could punch you fist through someone's chest and out the back (through the ribs, their lungs/heart, and through the ribs again) that be roughly the damage that a close range shotgun hit does. I strongly suspect that nobody can actually punch like that in the real world, not matter what the karate "black belt in a year" guy tells you.
Tarantula
My other point for melee damage is that its possible to get into the high teens with adept powers and martial arts (as well as cyberlimbs/trolls/etc) for damage. Throw in killing hands or bone lacing and now you are hitting harder than sniper rifles.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 23 2008, 02:21 PM) *
No, it's not that either.

It's that the bullet puts a hole all the way through your body, destroying or damaging whatever organs it hits, and often causing all sorts of internal bleeding. Bigger bullets make a bigger wound channel, bullets that expand or tumble make even bigger would channels. The more tissue that is destroyed the more likely it is that something important (like your liver, aorta or spinal cord) gets damaged. It doesn't correlate well to KE or momentum.

If you could punch you fist through someone's chest and out the back (through the ribs, their lungs/heart, and through the ribs again) that be roughly the damage that a close range shotgun hit does. I strongly suspect that nobody can actually punch like that in the real world, not matter what the karate "black belt in a year" guy tells you.



The energy of the bullet is actually the more important factor.
http://www.ballistics-experts.com/Forensic...cs/Overview.htm
http://www.freshpatents.com/Low-lethality-...20060283068.php


You kill people by imparting energy to their system. Not from the penetration of the round. The penetration may also be a contributing factor, but the shock imparted to the body by the impact of the round to a point on the body is where the damage comes from.
kzt
He's a bullshit artist, not an "expert". You'll notice that he has written no peer reviewed publications. That's because his research consists of "I made up everything I didn't read in gun magzines".

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY

FBI's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectivness"
CanRay
"A person that brings a knife to a gunfight is either an idiot, or very, very good."

Wish I could remember where this quote came from.
Aaron
I had a melee artist and a gun bunny in a game once. After a big fight, the player of the gun bunny pointed out that he'd had more attacks over the course of the fight. The player of the melee artist pointed out that she hadn't blown through several hundred nuyen over the course of the fight.
CanRay
Marlboro: "You know, that gun costs about two dollars every time you fire it. That's two bucks a bullet."
Harley Davidson: "Well how many'd I hit?"
Marlboro: "You spent twelve dollars and didn't hit a goddamn thing. I nailed one and it cost about four and a quarter."
WeaverMount
It's been said before that the reason that Melee and ranged aren't balanced is that melee and range aren't balanced. If you don't like I would recommend not changing the mechanics, but doing the only thing that has made melee combat prevalent in RL. Gun Control. However you feel about it, whatever you think it does or doesn't do to a society, institutions of power can make having and using guns problematic and less desirable, even for criminals. You can't realistically make melee comparable to range except by artificially stacking the deck to increase the prevalence the few conditions where it is better.
Zen Shooter01
Melee is inferior to ranged in reality. That's why military units traded spears for rifles.
WeaverMount
Yes and they still train some in hand to hand because it does come up, and a little train is still absolutely worth the effort.

In area's and era guns are repressed and unavailable you still see crazy good martial artists like in south east Asia, and Feudal Japan. You would have to break the setting but if you take SR4 more in an Orwellian vain and less in a social chaos sort of way, you could do it
CanRay
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Apr 23 2008, 07:07 PM) *
Melee is inferior to ranged in reality. That's why military units traded spears for rifles.

No, they upgraded the spear, that also has a Top-Mounted Musket. Bayonets! nyahnyah.gif
Glyph
I would strongly recommend against changing the defense pools for ranged attacks. The big, huge difference between ranged attacks and melee is that melee is a pretty straight opposed test, but ranged combat faces many, many potential negative modifiers. And there are already rules penalizing shooters in melee situations.

Personally, I don't find melee underpowered at all. Between 'ware, adept abilities, and martial arts techniques, not to mention weapon foci, you can make a melee master who is extremely effective. And since your melee ability is part of your defense pool, someone good at melee is also less likely to be hit by opponents.

A ranged fighter with a dice pool of 16 going up against 5 mooks with a dice pool of 6 will have to be careful not to get shot while he's taking them out, and will be lucky if he escapes unwounded. A melee fighter with a dice pool of 16 going up against 5 mooks with a dice pool of 6 will be likely to overwhelm them and escape unscathed.
Daier Mune
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 23 2008, 03:21 PM) *
No, it's not that either.

It's that the bullet puts a hole all the way through your body, destroying or damaging whatever organs it hits, and often causing all sorts of internal bleeding. Bigger bullets make a bigger wound channel, bullets that expand or tumble make even bigger would channels. The more tissue that is destroyed the more likely it is that something important (like your liver, aorta or spinal cord) gets damaged. It doesn't correlate well to KE or momentum.

If you could punch you fist through someone's chest and out the back (through the ribs, their lungs/heart, and through the ribs again) that be roughly the damage that a close range shotgun hit does. I strongly suspect that nobody can actually punch like that in the real world, not matter what the karate "black belt in a year" guy tells you.


uh...yeah. i guess thats like saying "its not the fall that kills you, its the sudden stop at the end."

yes. the bullet kills you by means of severing your arteries, organs and whathaveyou. however, a bullet can not do all of that without having the proper kinetic energy behind it.
underaneonhalo
I haven't had any problems with melee being underpowered. Other people have already stated why they think the same thing so I won't waste more space than it takes to say I agree.

That said here's some fun things!
An incomplete list of about 600 boxers who died in the ring.
-and-
The Wikipedia article on hydrostatic shock, just one of the nasty things that happens when you get shot.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 23 2008, 08:37 PM) *
I disagree. Whats the force contained in a bullet vs the force contained in a solid punch/kick.


Now let's see. I'll stand here and let you punch me. You stand there and let me shoot you. We'll take turns...

Or did I miss the smiley?
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 24 2008, 10:05 AM) *
Now let's see. I'll stand here and let you punch me. You stand there and let me shoot you. We'll take turns...

Or did I miss the smiley?


Force != pressure

Your average human lower arm (the part that's actually moving rigidly at full speed) weighs in at 2 kg. A good punch can get that going up to about 80 m/s.

On the other hand, a bullet can get up around 900 meters per second, and weighs around 5g (0.005 kg).

Now, assuming they're both decelerating by the same amount (probably not true, but a useful handwave), let's say 50 miliseconds, you're looking at

2.000 x 80 / 0.05 = 3200 N for the fist.
vs.
0.005 x 900 / 0.05 = 90 N for the bullet.

This is why, for example, you can easily knock someone down with a punch, but (except for in the movies) bullets don't typically send people flying.

The trick isn't force; it's pressure, impulse, and rigidity. Hell, I can generate far more force than a bullet just by leaning on you.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 23 2008, 09:26 PM) *
Melee is inferior to ranged IRL also. I don't see any reason to make them equivalent methods of combat. Melee has its own advantages (maneuvers, high DV values possible, completely legal, quieter).


Exactly. Guns should beat melee, it's why we fight with guns and not swords today.
ElFenrir
As much as i'm for melee, again, i think each one has it's good and bad things that outweigh the other.

Now, on the boxers killed in the ring; it certainly does happen. However, Im willing to bet that most(not all, im sure a couple died on one), had already taken alot of hits in their careers for one and it just took their toll; or even if they were new, it didn't happen in the first round. When you think about it, it's like taking your head, taking a chair leg, wrapping a little padding around it and beating yourself in the head for 21 minutes with it(3 minute rounds time say, 7 rounds). Something might indeed happen by then. Can melee combat in real life be fatal? Absolutely. I mean, im far from strong. Im a wimp actually. But if I ran at someone with a combat knife and stuck them, they would be hurting pretty damned badly, and could possibly die from it. (But then again, it's a game. It doesn't, and shouldn't, IMO, copy real life to a T.)

Now, of course, in Shadowrun we have a guy with bones laced with metal and muscle augmentation that probably makes him over twice as strong as a professional boxer. Or, well, magic, naturally. Yeah, I can buy this why melee DVs can be damned high. wink.gif
Shiloh
QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Apr 24 2008, 10:22 AM) *
Force != pressure

Your average human lower arm (the part that's actually moving rigidly at full speed) weighs in at 2 kg. A good punch can get that going up to about 80 m/s.

On the other hand, a bullet can get up around 900 meters per second, and weighs around 5g (0.005 kg).

Now, assuming they're both decelerating by the same amount (probably not true, but a useful handwave), let's say 50 miliseconds, you're looking at

2.000 x 80 / 0.05 = 3200 N for the fist.
vs.
0.005 x 900 / 0.05 = 90 N for the bullet.

This is why, for example, you can easily knock someone down with a punch, but (except for in the movies) bullets don't typically send people flying.

The trick isn't force; it's pressure, impulse, and rigidity. Hell, I can generate far more force than a bullet just by leaning on you.


The point of me using a quote tag was so you could see the context of what was being said. Tarantula was being pointlessly vague in defining things, so I attempted to cut to the core of the issue: would you rather be punched or shot? Me, I'd rather be punched by pretty much *anyone* than shot by pretty much *any* firearm.

SR *does* change that. I think I'd rather be shot by a light pistol twice than punched by Killinghandstrolladept just the once, thanks. My armour jacket will basically turn the light ammo into a punch from a normal chap. I'll be in two bits after the Troll is finished with me.

One of the advantages of the firearm is that it allows a relatively unskilled person to apply lethal force. It's where early firearms scored over longbows. If Wellington's red coats had had longbows and the skills to use them at Waterloo, it wouldn't have been a "damn fine run thing", but it was impossible to raise and maintain an army of the size that Wellington had with the weapon skills the Agincourt archers had.

SR maintains this: anyone can contribute to a firefight, but if you join in a melee without leet skillz you're pate.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 24 2008, 03:09 PM) *
One of the advantages of the firearm is that it allows a relatively unskilled person to apply lethal force. It's where early firearms scored over longbows. If Wellington's red coats had had longbows and the skills to use them at Waterloo, it wouldn't have been a "damn fine run thing", but it was impossible to raise and maintain an army of the size that Wellington had with the weapon skills the Agincourt archers had.

SR maintains this: anyone can contribute to a firefight, but if you join in a melee without leet skillz you're pate.


But if you apply the same skill training you need to become lethal with a melee weapon to a ranged weapon, you become even more effective.
Aaron
Really, there are only two kinds of weapons: those that kill, and those that kill with a little more effort. Weapons don't fight each other, people do.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 24 2008, 02:05 AM) *
Now let's see. I'll stand here and let you punch me. You stand there and let me shoot you. We'll take turns...


Ok, but lets have Mike Tyson (or whoever the super boxer ATM is) punching you, with no gloves, and you don't get to defend yourself. Still take the deal?
Critias
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 24 2008, 09:47 AM) *
Ok, but lets have Mike Tyson (or whoever the super boxer ATM is) punching you, with no gloves, and you don't get to defend yourself. Still take the deal?

Depends. Do I get to go first?
Tarantula
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 24 2008, 06:51 AM) *
Depends. Do I get to go first?


Nah, remember, melee is underpowered, it should go first twirl.gif
Oracle
I'd rather not be punched in the face by Mike Tyson. But as a matter of fact I would prefer it to being shot into the face with a 9mm.
Tarantula
See, and I'd argue the shooting should come from average shooting distances, and not melee ranges. Which increases the chances of a bad shot/miss.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 24 2008, 07:57 AM) *
Nah, remember, melee is underpowered, it should go first twirl.gif



I'd take you up on that... I think a single blow from Iron Mike would hurt like a mofo... and would really mess me up.

Then I'd shoot him in his punching arm with a .45 ACP. Right at about the elbow.

cryptoknight
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 24 2008, 08:06 AM) *
See, and I'd argue the shooting should come from average shooting distances, and not melee ranges. Which increases the chances of a bad shot/miss.



Not if he has to stand there and let me shoot him without ducking. since I have to let him land the punch.

If I had to stand at 20 ft or so and shoot him, I'd change the shot and go for a body shot... .45 ACP again. He might get around to punching me the second time... but after two rounds to the chest/abdominal cavity.. I really doubt he'd be able to try for round 3.
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