Odds are you won't either. Unless you're lucky enough to sever my head and my finger just twitches and sprays nowhere, I may die, but holding down the trigger and pointing at you is going to give you a mess of hurt.

Thats Dead Man's trigger rules I believe.

(Or was that limited to only a free action? Either way holding down the trigger on a fully-automatic works for me, just consider it cover fire)

That's not how it works.
A melee specialist will use his first strike or his off-hand to deviate/disarm the gun, and then strike the opponent.

My point was, while gun are more powerful and easier to use than melee weapons, they are not ultimate in any situation.
That's why modern soldiers still carry a blade and are trained to use it.

I could see you batting a pistol out of my hand, but an SMG with a foregrip? I've got two hands, and likely a shoulder strap holding it to me... good freaking luck.

Sorry for jumping in later in a thread like this.

But if you want to work out melee vs ranged details a bit I think you might enjoy having one person with even a squirt gun and another with a cardboard "knife".

Even if you start at close range you'll usually wind up with one wet person and one person who would have take a couple slashes to an arm (which in SR would be armored).

There are no adjustments to disarming weapons held in 2 hands are there? I thought of this before, but forgot about it before I had a chance to search.

Deviating is more than enough. Bullets are not that big...

Edit: BTW, 2 hand weapons = reduced mobility. Not an advantage in CQC.

One bullet != Big But 30 rounds at 800-900 rounds/min = big area.
In Shadowrun terms have fun with the Suppressive fire I just poured into your square.

also in Shadowrun terms it's your (Agility + Weapon + mods) - 4 vs My Reaction + Dodge with a threshold of my str.
In mechanics terms assume I have all 3's... So I get maybe 2 successes.
If you have 5's... 5 + 5 + (we'll net the mods at 2) - 4 = 8 dice so maybe 3 successes

3 - 2 = 1 vs my threshold str of 3 = you fail
Now I put Suppressive fire into your face.

And I'd say an SMG held with two hands doesn't do that much to reduce your mobility... you'd be an idiot to try to fire one single handed.

Actually, if you don't have it aimed at them with your finger on the trigger it's pretty darn likely that someone who knows what they are doing can keep you from ever getting the weapon on target. Action is faster then reaction. They are already acting as you start to perceive the threat, decide on a response and execute the response. At 5 feet the muzzle is only 2 feet from their body, which means they can grab the muzzle by twisting at the hips, preventing it from coming to bear while they provide you with an improvised tracheotomy.

not if my Reaction is 5 and your Agility is 2

Either way this whole thing is exiting rules and entering the realm of screenplay.

I have it aimed in front of me... I'm coming around a corner of a building. If I have the gun out and I'm in a building I don't belong in... I'm not going around the corner that tight, because I'd be a fool to do it. I don't care how fast you are, I'm already where I don't belong. You don't think I'm going to twitch and shoot anything that makes me jump?

Again, I'd love to see you take this weapon
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...MP3K_ImgID1.jpg

And twist it anywhere before I pour lead into you.

And if I'm worried about the sound of my gunfire, I'll take the SD variant.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...er_Koch_MP5.jpg

And since I've got this weapon at the ready, it's up at shoulder height.... Good luck getting your hip up that high to trap it, then swinging a sword at me and cutting my neck. And killing me in such a way that I still don't open up all over you.

Well, I was just trying to illustrate the fact that melee weapons can, at times, be more effective/adequate than guns.
Even if some have played too much FPS and thinks than guns are ultimate...

But this thread has derailed far too long.

So... I throw 2 rocks and when you've maniacally emptied your magazine, I can easily come and rip you apart?
Nice trigger discipline there.

I'm not debating that... but in any kind of a frontal fight... not so much.

A great use for a melee weapon? Take a Bowie Knife, sneak up on the guard with the gun from behind, and slit his throat.

But a machete vs SMG/Sawed off Shotgun? In a Stand up fight? Are you walking down the hall with the thing held back to strike all the time?
It's a lot easier to walk around in a building that you're busting into with a stock to your shoulder, than it is to walk down the hall with a sword at the ready to swing it.

I still have a club with my gun... If I have the stock extended... it's an ok melee weapon.

What do you do with the sword when we're say... 30 feet apart?

Not a very good one. It's not equilibrated and not even that effective...


Ho, I'm totally screwed.
But then again. I never said melee weapons are superior to gun.
If that was the case there'd still be military going around carrying axes.


But the melee guy has better maneuverability, can attack at point blank and never need to reload.
There are some situations where he will be at an advantage, don't deny it.

...And the throwing adept trumps all, since he can chuck his knives and stab you with 'em too. And can have up to Agility readied.

he just can't do cover fire or burst...

Throwing adapts can chuck playing cards or pennies at you like cannon rounds if focused on heavily...

yeah, but they never seem to hold up in melee. Hmm.. unless you took exotic melee weapon playing card?

In Shadowrun terms, assuming a strength of 3 and disarming with a sword, 6 vs your strength. It goes off modified damage value vs strength, not net hits vs strength.

RL: I have had training & done melee vs. ranged scenarios before, and I can say with absolute certainty, in close quarters, a melee weapon is by far superior to a firearm, & unarmed usually has the advantage. In the time it takes you to point the weapon at me, I can have it deflected off to the side and you off balance. In the next 1-2 seconds, I can disarm you and strike at least once, or be behind you with a vascular hold.

If I am wielding a weapon, it does not matter if your gun is two-handed with a shoulder strap, you will not be using it again for a while. If I am unarmed, I can easily keep the weapon from me & drop you in under 5 seconds from a choke.

If your firearm is not previously readied, I can do the same from 20 feet away before you can draw and fire.

I am at best okay at martial arts.

Small nitpic Mush, but it'd actually be 5 vs his strength. Standard swords/machetes are Str/2 + 3. 3/2 = 1.5 (2) + 3 = 5. Of course, with the 1 success required to successfully hit, that would make it 6, but the base damage is actually 5.

Provided it can even hit. I was trying to be absurd in my comparison... but I misread the DV vs STR.




You willing to test that? Because I don't believe you. I suppose if I have a police holster and I have my gun happily snapped into it, that you're correct. If I have it tucked in my wasteband or something else easily accessible
Good for you... and if I have an SMG and haven't pulled back the bolt to chamber the first round, you're probably right. Again that's just a silly shadowrunner who deserves whatever you can dish out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsUlT08Dn4A

Oh yeah?

Well my dad can beat up your dad!

*looks around*

Can not!

*runs for cover*

Seriously, this seems like an argument better suited for Bullshido or what not.

@set This Thread=Troll/Flame Bait

It really doesn't matter. You won't get the gun out if you are reacting to an sudden blitz attack from 5 feet away. If you try you are defending with one hand against someone who is using both. It takes someone who is good and waiting on the firing line for signal about a second to draw and shoot a target in front of them. If you are not expecting it it takes at least a bit longer, as you have to decide that they guy is a threat and further that you need to go to guns. Someone who has already decided to attack you and decided how he's going to do can start the attack and be all over you before you even get a grip on the gun.

Firearms are not the ideal weapon in all situations, and within a step of a hostile adversary in one of those situations.

The old "I can get you disarmed before you can line up a shot" argument is useless since in the same situation, you could simply shoot him before he can draw if you were carrying a gun instead of a sword.
You will have even less of a chance against a sudden "blitz attack" from someone with a gun. All you are stating is "If I can get the drop on you, you're going to get hurt", and no one disputes that.

All things equal - as in "both ranged and melee weapon holstered or both ready" - guns beat melee. You might make a case for unarmed combat, since that's "always ready" of sorts, but even then, if both are ready, guns beat it. And in SR, we've got cyberguns.

It would be unarmed. (or, in SR, possibly cyber weapons) You have the same issue he has if you try to deploy a weapon in close, which is a trained opponent will not let you complete the weapon deployment and will be doing extremely violent things to your person with their feet and hands as you try. If someone is already going for a gun it's unlikely you will beat them if you try to draw, your best bet is to prevent them from getting it aimed at you by doing violent things to their body. You're probably going to end up in a life and death unarmed fight and wrestling for the gun either way.

If someone has gotten a knife deployed in close without you noticing it your are in trouble. At best it's going to get very bloody, as he'll probably try to use one hand to keep you from getting your gun out as he proceeds to attempt to provide you with new orifices and remove important parts of your anatomy with the other. Watch their hands. If you can't see someone's hands it's a bad sign.

My point is simply that if you're not ready and surprised, you're screwed no matter what you carry or use. If someone is going for a gun and I am surprised I am not likely to prevent that no matter what I do (since I assume he'll step back while drawing, and will keep the gun close to his body, and by the time I start to react, the gun will be out already. Reaction time is not that good.)

So, I don't see a real argument for melee's superiority in such situations.