 Firearm Damage Codes, Penetration vs. Wound level |
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 Dec 10 2003, 01:41 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955  |
As far as I understand, rifle bullets go very fast. They're also generally much smaller in caliber than pistols munitions. Hence, they go through armor, people, what have you with a good degree of ease. If they don't fragment in you, then they won't hurt you that bad (for being hit by a bullet at least, you'll still be in a world of hurt).
On the other hand, pistol (and SMG) rounds are larger, slower, and designed to stop in a person. They're not very good at going through armor, but being fat, they're pretty good at ripping the insides of a person apart. Looking at SR's damage codes, I see that a pistol generally has more power (penetration) than a rifle (7-10 vs. 7-9) but usually an equal DL. (Almost always M). Have any of you come up with a work-around to this, and/or are my figures complete apeshit? |
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Dec 10 2003, 01:46 AM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
nope, you're pretty much dead-on. the damage codes for SR firearms are spastic. raygun rules that all rifle rounds reduce armor by 25%. this makes good sense to me.
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Dec 10 2003, 02:06 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 186 Joined: 30-January 03 From: Redlands, CA Member No.: 3,996 |
Raygun done a good job witht he firearm issues, I uses his rules all the time.
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Dec 10 2003, 03:40 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
Alright, that's what I've been using recently (with an armor mark-up for pistol cartridges fired from pistols!). Just wondering if someone had already redone all the damage codes.
Looks like it's time to REWRITE SHADOWRUN in history again. Funnage. :D |
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Dec 10 2003, 04:54 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Cleveland-Akron Sprawl Member No.: 1,200 |
I did a very basic reform of the weapon codes. Light pistols were 6M instead of 6L. Heavy pistols were 7M. Very heavy pistols (Super Warhawk) were 8M. I didn't mess with anything else because submachineguns and shotguns were fine by me and the game wasn't set up for anything heavier than shotguns.
I changed the pistol powers and damage codes to reflect SMG damage, because SMGs (generally) fire pistol ammo as is and the pistol damages weren't inline with that. I also wanted to see more players using light pistols instead of discounting them immediately for being too weak. The ammo capacity and concealability of light pistols made them a quick choice for many players. |
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Dec 10 2003, 04:55 AM
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#6
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Austere Emancipator has a decent system for simulating what you're talking about. He basically separates the Power Rating from a Penetration Rating and works it around different cartridges and loads that way. I'm sure he'll be posting in here fairly soon.
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Dec 10 2003, 05:44 AM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
The system is basically a damage rating say 8M with a penetration rating as a + or - so a rifle round might be 7M (-3) while a pistol roung might be 8M (+1). Shooting Mr. naked runner, the rifle does 7M, the pistol does 8M, but against and armored runner, the rifle round negates 3 points of armor, while the pistol round add 1 to the rating of the armor being shot... This means that you can model AP ammo be upping the penetration and lowering the damage so the above 8M (-3) rifle round, when using AP ammo might be 7L (-6) or something; and eveyone's favorite explosive rifle ammo might be 9M (0).
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Dec 10 2003, 05:46 AM
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#8
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
So if you shoot an unarmored bloke with a pistol, do they get the equivalent of a point of armor?
~J |
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Dec 10 2003, 05:48 AM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Nope. It just gravitates the runners (properly, IMHO) toward shoulder arms if they want to kill someone.
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Dec 10 2003, 05:49 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 186 Joined: 30-January 03 From: Redlands, CA Member No.: 3,996 |
I think what he means if if said person has armor, he gain +1 to his ballistic rating, and some body with no armor gets not benefit because he has not armor. At least thats is how I took it, might be wrong.
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Dec 10 2003, 06:42 AM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Wow, you guys remembered! :D
Yeah, it works like Crusher Bob said. I should warn you, though, that the current version is rather streamlined in many ways compared to what I posted in your thread way back when. For example, it doesn't take the Power and Penetration dropping at Range as seriously as the old version did, especially concerning 5.56/5.45 and similar calibers. Also, while it might make absolute sense to do so, I have not yet enforced a dropping Damage Level for any kind of armor piercing ammunition in any caliber. I haven't got the numbers up on this computer. Maybe I'll finally rewrite them today, and I can post them here if you wish. Here's a few examples: 9x19 SP -- FMJ: 7M/+2 -- 6M/- .45ACP SP -- FMJ: 9M/+5 -- 8M/+3 5.56x45 FMJ -- AP: 7M/-2 -- 6M/-5 7.62x51 FMJ -- AP: 9S/-3 -- 8S/-5 As you can perhaps figure out from the numbers, there are base Power, DL and Penetration figures for every caliber (with pistols assumed to fire SP, rifles FMJ, but that doesn't really matter) and then bullet types modify that. I dropped the ~5.5mm AR calibers down to 7M, because with -1 Power/Range category it makes the damage quite resistable at longer ranges (5M/4M Long/Extreme). Okay, I won't go into more detail of the system yet, but a few warnings are in order. If you use canon armor ratings, these rules would pretty much allow 7.62NATO AP ammunition and anything better to completely ignore most body armor. I suggest you not use a system like this unless you modify the armor system as well. In my games there are hit locations and completely redone body armor, and with those the Penetration rating works fine. If you do not plan on using hit locations and/or remaking armor, Raygun's rules will certainly work much better. They'll work much better in many cases anyway, and I'm sure they're more realistic than mine. And nope, it won't mean that someone without armor gets "free armor" when hit by pistols and the like. That'd pretty much defeat the whole purpose... And nope, it doesn't mean that many rifle rounds, especially AP, would increase their Power against low armor ratings. The Penetration figure only modifies the armor on the target, it only modifies actual Armor ratings (it might happen that someone has rating 0 armor, and that would be modified, but unarmored targets will never be affected in any way by the Penetration rating) and the modified Armor rating will never go under 0. |
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Dec 10 2003, 07:10 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
Hmm, that would save me a hell of a lot of work.
Back to the lab, to create another problem for me to solve! |
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Dec 10 2003, 11:19 AM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Okay, a few NBs first: All the "pistol" caliber (.22LR -> .500SW) base damage codes assume SP ammunition. All "rifle" caliber (4.6x30HK -> .50BMG) base damage codes assume FMJ ammunition. All shotgun calibers (10G, 12G, 12GW/O) assume lead slugs. Plenty of made-up ammo in there, including many that look a whole lot like certain RL ammo, but don't really act like it. I'm sure some of the codes could be tweaked. I'm open for suggestions. In my games, the Power of gunshots go down by 1 per Range category beyond Short. 5.56x45 FMJ will thus be 7M at Short, 6M at Medium, 5M at Long and 4M at Extreme. I think I'll change the rule a bit so that pistol ammo Powers only drop after Medium, or 6M/6M/5M/4M for 9x19 FMJ at S/M/L/E. Also IMG, if the Power of a gunshot is dropped below 2 by armor, every point by which the Power is dropped below 2 the target gains one bonus Damage Resistance die. Eg if someone wearing a heavy kevlar vest (Ball 5) gets hit by a 9x19 SP (7M/+2), the modified power is 0, and thus the target gets 2 extra DamRes dice against a TN of 2.
The 4.6x30HK and 5.7x28FN Damage Codes I'm really not sure about. I keep them Moderate in my games, because then I don't have any problems keeping the assault rifle calibers Moderate at long ranges... Feel free to make them Light if you think such itsy bitsy rounds shouldn't hurt much. I've seen many sources saying that HP rounds for rifles don't really cause significantly more damage. I just wanted to include them to have some way of representing common hunting ammunition, shooting range ammo, and the like. I have no rule system to deal with incendiary damage from bullet wounds. If someone gets hit by one in my games, I'll just describe the sizzling and burning and smell in a disgusting enough way to make the players get the idea. However, Raygun does have rules for that. The shotgun damages are yet another debatable point. The Power for them might be a bit too high, and Serious might not adequately represent a 2.5cm+ hole through you. On the other hand, if they dealt Deadly damage with slugs, what the heck would they do with Shot rounds? Deadly +1 Overdamage? That might be a bit too harsh... And I left different kinds of shot rounds out for a reason, and will just use the Buckshot stats for any shot ammunition. So sue me. Oh and the identical entries for ammo like .50BMG and 12.7x108 are there because they differ in things like price and weight, which I didn't bother to copy onto here. And again, please post your thoughts about the numbers. Don't bother saying things like "it's too complicated", because I've already used it for a long time and it's not a bit too complicated for me. And there's really nothing much that can be done about the system to make it less complicated without scrapping the whole idea. [Edit]More clarifications: The 5.6mm Flechette always fires an APFSDS tungsten arrow and cannot be modified by the Rifle Bullet Types. VC stands for Velocity Controlled, ie what the round's stats look like when intentionally subsonic for sound-suppressed shooting, including heavier (and possible longer) bullet and all. If a caliber isn't marked as Always VC (which means just that) and it doesn't have any DMG or PEN ratings in brackets, it can't be velocity controlled. What this really means is that it wouldn't make any sense to make subsonic loadings for the caliber, so I didn't bother to make stats for them. If a caliber is marked with a DMG rating in brackets but no PEN in brackets, it uses the supersonic PEN rating even when subsonic. No Armor Piercing round (AP, API, APDS) can be Velocity Controlled, not even with Always VC calibers. Match doesn't stack with APDS or Gel, but I suppose you could do match grade version of any other kind of bullets. (Right?) Match-grade PIEs are going to be insanely rare and expensive, though... Tracer stacks with at least FMJ, AP, API, APDS and PIE. SP, HP and Frangible Tracers are going to be extremely rare, but not impossible. No Gel-Ts... .50BMG and 12.7x108 ascend the normal Bullet Type rules. Most of the time, just ignore any body armor with them and you won't be far wrong. In extreme situations and against vehicles, I've got AP, API, APDS, PIE and HEIAP(/APHEI/whatever) rules for them: AP ... -2/- ... -5 API ... -2/- ... -5 ... Incendiary APDS ... -4/- ... -8 PIE ... -4/+1 ... - ... Incendiary HEIAP ... -2/+1 ... -8 ... Incendiary Well okay, I just made these up. Comment away. I know they're overkill against people, but they're supposed to be. Any of those AP rounds is going to ignore each and every form of body armor possible in my games, including the heaviest possible tactical assault armor breast plates with additional plating and Form-Fitting underneath.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Dec 13 2003, 01:10 PM |
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Dec 10 2003, 12:19 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The system above does make quite a few assumptions about the armor ratings as well. First of all, it's heavily based on the NIJ tables for what rounds penetrate what levels of body armor. In fact, it's almost completely based on those tables, penetration-wise.
What NIJ describes as being capable of stopping is represented by the Power dropping to 2 or below. Relatively speaking then a 2060s equivalent of a RL NIJ level III-A vest (ie capable of stopping SMG 9x19 FMJs, .44Mag lead wadcutters, 12G slugs) is an Armor Rating of 5. In my games, a "heavy kevlar vest" (a general name for any common type of heavy flexible body armor vest) has a Ballistic rating of 5. A "medium kevlar vest" has Ball 4, enough to bring 9x19 FMJs and .357Mag SPs down to 2 mod Power (NIJ level II). A "light kevlar vest" has Ball 3, enough to drop .45ACP, .40S&W and .22Mag SPs down to 2 (about NIJ level II-A). The most Ballistic armor a flexible vest has is an advanced tech version of the "heavy kevlar vest", which has a Ball rating of 6. Any rifle FMJ rounds will penetrate any flexible body armor vest at Short ranges, which is pretty much the whole point. Additional plates to be inserted into flexible vests range from +2 Ballistic light plaststeel plates to dikoted sapphire plates for +6 Ballistic. The most common ceramic plates are +5 Ballistic, which together with a "heavy kevlar vest" will stop 7.62x51 FMJ rounds at point blank range (NIJ type III). The dikoted sapphire plates with an advanced tech heavy vest will stop a 7.62x51 AP round at point blank range (NIJ type IV). |
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Dec 10 2003, 03:15 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
You ought publish this somewhere more permanent than a DSF thread. :D
TSS or something? |
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Dec 10 2003, 03:35 PM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Blah. Can't be bothered. Interest in it is marginal to say the least, and I'm a sucky writer.
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Dec 10 2003, 08:29 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 328 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,353 |
That's an interesting system there AE and I might try it sometime. It reminds me of the damage system in MW3rd Edition (with armor and penetration). As for myself, I go for Raygun Lite.
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Dec 10 2003, 09:11 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I've never run into the 3rd ed of MW. I've got some 2nd Ed books for it, though, and those still use the weird "This armor negates 3/4th of projectile damage" rules. I don't think I've copied the system out of anywhere (I know you didn't claim I did and probably didn't mean anything of the sort with the reference, it just made me think about why I created the rules in the first place). I think it springs from the fact that I've always liked a static Armor Rating Reduces Damage By Amount X, Which Can Be Changed By Penetration system in all RPGs for some reason. |
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Dec 10 2003, 09:20 PM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
I'd like to see a system or caveat to a system where the damage goes from physical to stun when sufficient armor is applied.
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Dec 10 2003, 09:47 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If you wish, using the rules above, you might simply declare that any Damage caused by a gunshot where the Power was modified to 2 or below by Armor only causes Stun. Easy. However, unless you also use hit locations and armor rules to go with them, that won't make much sense. In a canon game, body armor dropping a Power to 2 or below might just mean that the shot landed in the guy's foot and thus doesn't stand a good chance of killing the target, but the bullet itself never came into contact with any armor. It seems that since the original discussion I had about this system with Crusher Bob something like a year ago in the old forums, no one has really had anything significant to say about it. After that, whenever I've posted it, there's just a few very general, short comments, and then the threads die away... |
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Dec 10 2003, 10:07 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Thing is, it's kind of hard to figure out where to draw the line. A level IIIA vest may stop a 9mm round, but the bruise you're going to sustain is pretty much in line with a physical wound— just not terribly severe, hence L. With plates, I'd call any resultant damage from said roun stun, but you can't just draw the line over a certain number of degrees; that's just far too inelegant, even for a houserule.
Austere, I think your system could stand refinement, but it's a solid start. Then again, I've sort of been a long running fan of three part damage codes and an advocate for revising the canon weapons rules. Anyway, I'd suggest giving this its own thread and cleaning the whole mess up a bit (even simple stuff like formatting; my guess is that at least some people find it a little daunting, at present). |
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Dec 10 2003, 10:26 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Well, now... Getting hit by a club does Stun by canon. Even when the club looks like this. I think you'll agree that that would do the same sort of damage that a bullet stopped by armor would. Therefore, if you advocate Stun damage for clubs, it can be argued that Stun damage from stopped bullets would also make sense. Feel free to think it's inelegant, though. I used a total of 0.3 seconds making it up. I don't enforce any similar rule in my games, stopped bullets always cause Physical here.
Please tell me, what exactly needs refining? I'm sure there's loads of illogical things there, but I can't find 'em alone. I've spent a lot of time honing the numbers, and it ain't likely that I'll make them any better on my own. I depend on you people to tell me what needs refinement, which is part of why I'm a bit sad all the threads I've posted this in ended up like they did.
I didn't put it up for its aesthetic value. ;) Yeah, I'm sure the formatting is off. Feel free to try to get all those figures in nice, clean columns on this forum. Now that there's no [pre] command anymore, that's damn near impossible, and it used to be really freaking hard even in the old forums. I decided that I won't use more than 30 minutes to format the damn thing, and that's about as long as it took, using MS Word and a lot of Find/Replace. What else is messy, though? The formatting I really don't care about, I'm more interested in the substance than the style. |
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Dec 10 2003, 11:10 PM
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#23
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yeah, that looks like a club that should do stun, not physical.
~J |
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Dec 11 2003, 01:04 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
I thought it was going to be a motherfucking mace.
Oh well. |
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Dec 11 2003, 01:15 AM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Oops. I always though maces did Physical in SR. Never bothered to check until now. Wow...
Even more evidence that canon SR likes to consider any and all blunt force trauma as Stun damage. I certainly disagree, but whatever. |
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