Logic = worthless for a hacker Options

[Lionhearted]

It seems that most hacking/computer based actions are based on program ratings rather than his logic attribute (well aside from hardware/software checks) so I was wondering, when does a hacker really uses his logic?
It seems rather unlogical that a simpleton Is as great or even greater than a supergenius based on what resources they can access..

[Larme]

Hardware and software are pretty important. Software saves you money on expensive progs, and you can also make extra money by writing progs to sell. And as for hardware... When your team is faced with an offline storage unit that has paydata, and the only way to get the data is to open it up and jurry rig some kind of connection... the team is going to look at the hacker. When the hacker says "sorry guys, I was twinking out and used Logic as my dump stat," the team is going to be pretty pissed. The hacker's job is not just to hack, it's to be the expert in all things electronic, except in the very rare circumstance where you have both a hacker and some kind of tinkerer/mechanic in your group. Most of the time, you're not doing your job as a Hacker if you don't get a reasonable Logic score.

I think it's easy to explain why you don't need Logic to hack though. Hacking is done based on icons. Pictures fly around you in VR, and you point at them, or you point pictures at other pictures (like point your attack program at the icon for the IC) to make things happen. It's more like those cash registers at McDonald's that have pictures of the food instead of words on them than it is like modern computing. The Matrix is intuitive, and you can operate it perfectly well without having the slightest clue what's going on at the mechanical level. You don't need to understand code or firewall, you need to spot the drainage ditch in the castle wall that represents a weak point where the maintenance corp monitors the company's network from offsite, for instance. It's not really a logic based process at all.

[Tarantula]

Larme's got it. Skill checks such as hardware, software, repair skills, etc are when logic is useful.

If you just want to make a script kiddie who has m4d h@x, then sure, give him logic 2-3 and go to town with your rating 6 programs.

[Balcon13]

Also a good hacker with a high logic is unhappy with level 6 programs. The hacker in my group is in the process of writting a level 10 progam (not sure what type) lets see a person with a low logic do that with any real success.

[Drogos]

With the way the RAW is, anybody could do that given the time. That's why you have optional rules for extended tests. Good rule of thumb is no more than dicepool (including modifiers) attempts. I suppose on some really l33t coding, I'd let them have another dicepool of tests but at a -1 modifier so on until the dice run out. Of course, that awesome L.10 program only works as well as that L.6 program on your com already unless you also upgraded System and Response to 10s. Man hackers are a PITA.

[Nightwalker450]

With the way the RAW is, anybody could do that given the time. That's why you have optional rules for extended tests. Good rule of thumb is no more than dicepool (including modifiers) attempts. I suppose on some really l33t coding, I'd let them have another dicepool of tests but at a -1 modifier so on until the dice run out. Of course, that awesome L.10 program only works as well as that L.6 program on your com already unless you also upgraded System and Response to 10s. Man hackers are a PITA.

Hmm... For extended tests maybe limited to Attribute + Skill attempts... So they can throw big dicepools, but they aren't good for the long haul on a hack. I don't know if it would slow 'em down that much, but just a thought.

EDIT: Clarification, I mean for using the software, not just writing it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Drogos]

Hmm... For extended tests maybe limited to Attribute + Skill attempts... So they can throw big dicepools, but they aren't good for the long haul on a hack. I don't know if it would slow 'em down that much, but just a thought.

More or less what I was trying to say, but I think if you have the uber text book of all programming tips and tricks, you should get a bonus to your rolls. And my original thought was that it took more than 20 successes to make a rating 10 program, which is not the case. Yeah, Attribute + Skill number of tests seems just about right since that's just 60 dice for an average, so 5 rolls for the best of the best 10 for the slightly above average. Meaning you should know what the hell you are doing before you try to make top of he line programs.

[Beetle]

Also a good hacker with a high logic is unhappy with level 6 programs. The hacker in my group is in the process of writting a level 10 progam (not sure what type) lets see a person with a low logic do that with any real success.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't have my book with me, but I thought comm's maxed out at 6 and can't run programs with a rating higher than that...

[deek]

I limit extended tests to skill + 1 attempts, just to throw in another option. It works well at our table.

[Nightwalker450]

My GM limits me to skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

It hurts sometimes. I'd rather have dicepool. I tried not to twink my technomancer out too much, and sometimes I really pay for it.

[paws2sky]

There's a house rule floating around here somewhere that deals with this. I think its something like:

Attribute + Skill, successes capped by program rating.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Nightwalker450]

There's a house rule floating around here somewhere that deals with this. I think its something like:

Attribute + Skill, successes capped by program rating.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

There's alot of houserules around (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But that one makes Technomancer threading pointless. Bad Technomancers breaking everything. Thats why their so hated, not because of their wireless otaku abilites but because they have severly screwed up the Matrix rules (or any chance of houseruling them).

...Still looking forward to Unwired (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[paws2sky]

Ha! Yeah, house rules seem to breed like rabbits around gaming forums. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Technomancers... I want to like them, but... Bleh. At least they have a decent name now.

[deek]

I often forget why I like TMs so much in 4th Edition...its because I don't use them in my games:) It makes everyone's life so much easier at our table!!!

[Nightwalker450]

Technomancer's have been pushed to the side it seems by a majority of dump shockers. Hopefully Unwired will make them more usable.

I like them, but I seem to be in the minority, that is willing to work with their flaws and just have fun with them. I also don't go the path of pokemon, I mean sprite collector. I use sprites like mages use watcher spirits most of the time.

[Larme]

Technomancer's have been pushed to the side it seems by a majority of dump shockers.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Yes, but not every Dumpshocker. For proof, see "Calling out Hermit," 12 pages of him arguing that TM's are the greatest most r0x0ring thing ever to happen to rigging, to the point where there is absolutely no point to playing a regular rigger. So at least some people think they're good (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[deek]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Yes, but not every Dumpshocker. For proof, see "Calling out Hermit," 12 pages of him arguing that TM's are the greatest most r0x0ring thing ever to happen to rigging, to the point where there is absolutely no point to playing a regular rigger. So at least some people think they're good (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

I think they bring another cool element to the game. I honestly didn't restrict them due to broken rules or anything of that nature. As I was reading through the core rules, I was bulking up to answer all my new players' questions and there was already a great deal to disseminate without adding the TM flavor to the campaign. And seeing they were supposed to be really rare, I felt it worked to our benefit.

There are some really cool things TMs can do. Its just sometimes there is "too much" in SR and it helps to restrict a few things when you are all fresh. I know when I was running 1st Edition, the magic section was a bear to tackle, so I just played without it. We had loads of fun with deckers, sammies and riggers...

[Eyeless Blond]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Yes, but not every Dumpshocker. For proof, see "Calling out Hermit," 12 pages of him arguing that TM's are the greatest most r0x0ring thing ever to happen to rigging, to the point where there is absolutely no point to playing a regular rigger. So at least some people think they're good (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Except for the fact that he doesn't seem to have ever actually played one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Btw, do you guys really give the hacker the 6+ months of downtime necessary to write a decent program? It's not the Thresholds that kill Software; it's the Intervals.

[Kyoto Kid]

There's a house rule floating around here somewhere that deals with this. I think its something like:

Attribute + Skill, successes capped by program rating.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

...we use this one and it works just fine.

Technomancer's have been pushed to the side it seems by a majority of dump shockers. Hopefully Unwired will make them more usable.

I like them, but I seem to be in the minority, that is willing to work with their flaws and just have fun with them. I also don't go the path of pokemon, I mean sprite collector. I use sprites like mages use watcher spirits most of the time.

...yeah TMs are best left in a reinforced concrete box somewhere away from things like spells, bullets, and falling bovines. If they are supposed to be the outgrowth of Otaku then their primary ability should not suffer from cyber augmentation as their predecessors needed implants to link with the matrix. If anything TMs should desire to become more like the machine IMO.

[Lionhearted]

There's a house rule floating around here somewhere that deals with this. I think its something like:

Attribute + Skill, successes capped by program rating.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Hm I like that *Snitch* the hacker in my game will be pleased (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
on a second note, I like how this simple enquiry is developing into a fullfledged thread

[deek]

Hm I like that *Snitch* the hacker in my game will be pleased (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
on a second note, I like how this simple enquiry is developing into a fullfledged thread

Its a Friday, and if you are like me (and in the Eastern Timezone), I'm at work, with everything wrapped up for the week and have nothing better to do than post my thoughts and experiences on SR4:)

[Nightwalker450]

Its a Friday, and if you are like me (and in the Eastern Timezone), I'm at work, with everything wrapped up for the week and have nothing better to do than post my thoughts and experiences on SR4:)

My position as well... Though less wrapped up, and more just waiting for things to finish. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[baburabi]

There's a house rule floating around here somewhere that deals with this. I think its something like:

Attribute + Skill, successes capped by program rating.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

yes, i believe this is the "official" houserule, but the one i like to use is

Skill+Program, successes capped by Logic+1.

either one will make all three things important for hacking, I feel in real life you need the natural ability, the know how, and the technology to get things done, it is just a matter of which is most important. For me its more about the skill and tech, but your "intelligence" will limit how far you can go with that.

[Sponge]

Also a good hacker with a high logic is unhappy with level 6 programs. The hacker in my group is in the process of writting a level 10 progam (not sure what type) lets see a person with a low logic do that with any real success.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't have my book with me, but I thought comm's maxed out at 6 and can't run programs with a rating higher than that...

That's my understanding as well - it seems to be implied that Rating 6 is the maximum rating available for commlinks and programs, although maybe Unwired will have something more concrete to say about this (one way or the other)

DS

[kigmatzomat]

But that one makes Technomancer threading pointless.

I never quite understood that. Why would threading be pointless? ( I say this with the caveat that our TM has been in the game 1 session. )

Seems to me that threading would let the TM focus on the most useful programs (say, Armor) and then thread up those "useful at rating 1-2" programs as needed. I admit that threading for higher levels wouldn't be as big a deal.

Bad Technomancers breaking everything. Thats why their so hated, not because of their wireless otaku abilites but because they have severly screwed up the Matrix rules (or any chance of houseruling them).

So far our TM is more of a "machine buff" person, loading registered remote tasked sprites onto the team's gear. A rating 3 machine sprite with diagnostics loaded onto a weapon is a super smartlink. That rating 3 machine sprite with autosoft(maneuver) is a significant upgrade to many vehicles. I'm happy when he loads a rating 4 w/autosoft(targeting) on the doberman when I'm running another drone. We let him roll all the dice from his sprites, which keeps everyone in the know as to how much he's contributing.

'Course, he liked playing Weaponsmiths in Earthdawn, which is another "party buff" class.