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Lionhearted
It seems that most hacking/computer based actions are based on program ratings rather than his logic attribute (well aside from hardware/software checks) so I was wondering, when does a hacker really uses his logic?
It seems rather unlogical that a simpleton Is as great or even greater than a supergenius based on what resources they can access..
Larme
Hardware and software are pretty important. Software saves you money on expensive progs, and you can also make extra money by writing progs to sell. And as for hardware... When your team is faced with an offline storage unit that has paydata, and the only way to get the data is to open it up and jurry rig some kind of connection... the team is going to look at the hacker. When the hacker says "sorry guys, I was twinking out and used Logic as my dump stat," the team is going to be pretty pissed. The hacker's job is not just to hack, it's to be the expert in all things electronic, except in the very rare circumstance where you have both a hacker and some kind of tinkerer/mechanic in your group. Most of the time, you're not doing your job as a Hacker if you don't get a reasonable Logic score.

I think it's easy to explain why you don't need Logic to hack though. Hacking is done based on icons. Pictures fly around you in VR, and you point at them, or you point pictures at other pictures (like point your attack program at the icon for the IC) to make things happen. It's more like those cash registers at McDonald's that have pictures of the food instead of words on them than it is like modern computing. The Matrix is intuitive, and you can operate it perfectly well without having the slightest clue what's going on at the mechanical level. You don't need to understand code or firewall, you need to spot the drainage ditch in the castle wall that represents a weak point where the maintenance corp monitors the company's network from offsite, for instance. It's not really a logic based process at all.
Tarantula
Larme's got it. Skill checks such as hardware, software, repair skills, etc are when logic is useful.

If you just want to make a script kiddie who has m4d h@x, then sure, give him logic 2-3 and go to town with your rating 6 programs.
Balcon13
Also a good hacker with a high logic is unhappy with level 6 programs. The hacker in my group is in the process of writting a level 10 progam (not sure what type) lets see a person with a low logic do that with any real success.
Drogos
With the way the RAW is, anybody could do that given the time. That's why you have optional rules for extended tests. Good rule of thumb is no more than dicepool (including modifiers) attempts. I suppose on some really l33t coding, I'd let them have another dicepool of tests but at a -1 modifier so on until the dice run out. Of course, that awesome L.10 program only works as well as that L.6 program on your com already unless you also upgraded System and Response to 10s. Man hackers are a PITA.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (Drogos @ Apr 25 2008, 11:58 AM) *
With the way the RAW is, anybody could do that given the time. That's why you have optional rules for extended tests. Good rule of thumb is no more than dicepool (including modifiers) attempts. I suppose on some really l33t coding, I'd let them have another dicepool of tests but at a -1 modifier so on until the dice run out. Of course, that awesome L.10 program only works as well as that L.6 program on your com already unless you also upgraded System and Response to 10s. Man hackers are a PITA.


Hmm... For extended tests maybe limited to Attribute + Skill attempts... So they can throw big dicepools, but they aren't good for the long haul on a hack. I don't know if it would slow 'em down that much, but just a thought.

EDIT: Clarification, I mean for using the software, not just writing it. biggrin.gif
Drogos
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 25 2008, 12:03 PM) *
Hmm... For extended tests maybe limited to Attribute + Skill attempts... So they can throw big dicepools, but they aren't good for the long haul on a hack. I don't know if it would slow 'em down that much, but just a thought.


More or less what I was trying to say, but I think if you have the uber text book of all programming tips and tricks, you should get a bonus to your rolls. And my original thought was that it took more than 20 successes to make a rating 10 program, which is not the case. Yeah, Attribute + Skill number of tests seems just about right since that's just 60 dice for an average, so 5 rolls for the best of the best 10 for the slightly above average. Meaning you should know what the hell you are doing before you try to make top of he line programs.
Beetle
QUOTE (Balcon13 @ Apr 25 2008, 12:54 PM) *
Also a good hacker with a high logic is unhappy with level 6 programs. The hacker in my group is in the process of writting a level 10 progam (not sure what type) lets see a person with a low logic do that with any real success.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't have my book with me, but I thought comm's maxed out at 6 and can't run programs with a rating higher than that...
deek
I limit extended tests to skill + 1 attempts, just to throw in another option. It works well at our table.
Nightwalker450
My GM limits me to skill. frown.gif

It hurts sometimes. I'd rather have dicepool. I tried not to twink my technomancer out too much, and sometimes I really pay for it.
paws2sky
There's a house rule floating around here somewhere that deals with this. I think its something like:

Attribute + Skill, successes capped by program rating.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 25 2008, 02:40 PM) *
There's a house rule floating around here somewhere that deals with this. I think its something like:

Attribute + Skill, successes capped by program rating.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


There's alot of houserules around biggrin.gif

But that one makes Technomancer threading pointless. Bad Technomancers breaking everything. Thats why their so hated, not because of their wireless otaku abilites but because they have severly screwed up the Matrix rules (or any chance of houseruling them).

...Still looking forward to Unwired biggrin.gif
paws2sky
Ha! Yeah, house rules seem to breed like rabbits around gaming forums. smile.gif

Technomancers... I want to like them, but... Bleh. At least they have a decent name now.
deek
I often forget why I like TMs so much in 4th Edition...its because I don't use them in my games:) It makes everyone's life so much easier at our table!!!
Nightwalker450
Technomancer's have been pushed to the side it seems by a majority of dump shockers. Hopefully Unwired will make them more usable.

I like them, but I seem to be in the minority, that is willing to work with their flaws and just have fun with them. I also don't go the path of pokemon, I mean sprite collector. I use sprites like mages use watcher spirits most of the time.
Larme
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 25 2008, 02:58 PM) *
Technomancer's have been pushed to the side it seems by a majority of dump shockers.


biggrin.gif Yes, but not every Dumpshocker. For proof, see "Calling out Hermit," 12 pages of him arguing that TM's are the greatest most r0x0ring thing ever to happen to rigging, to the point where there is absolutely no point to playing a regular rigger. So at least some people think they're good spin.gif
deek
QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 25 2008, 04:05 PM) *
biggrin.gif Yes, but not every Dumpshocker. For proof, see "Calling out Hermit," 12 pages of him arguing that TM's are the greatest most r0x0ring thing ever to happen to rigging, to the point where there is absolutely no point to playing a regular rigger. So at least some people think they're good spin.gif

I think they bring another cool element to the game. I honestly didn't restrict them due to broken rules or anything of that nature. As I was reading through the core rules, I was bulking up to answer all my new players' questions and there was already a great deal to disseminate without adding the TM flavor to the campaign. And seeing they were supposed to be really rare, I felt it worked to our benefit.

There are some really cool things TMs can do. Its just sometimes there is "too much" in SR and it helps to restrict a few things when you are all fresh. I know when I was running 1st Edition, the magic section was a bear to tackle, so I just played without it. We had loads of fun with deckers, sammies and riggers...
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 25 2008, 01:05 PM) *
biggrin.gif Yes, but not every Dumpshocker. For proof, see "Calling out Hermit," 12 pages of him arguing that TM's are the greatest most r0x0ring thing ever to happen to rigging, to the point where there is absolutely no point to playing a regular rigger. So at least some people think they're good spin.gif

Except for the fact that he doesn't seem to have ever actually played one. nyahnyah.gif

Btw, do you guys really give the hacker the 6+ months of downtime necessary to write a decent program? It's not the Thresholds that kill Software; it's the Intervals.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 25 2008, 12:40 PM) *
There's a house rule floating around here somewhere that deals with this. I think its something like:

Attribute + Skill, successes capped by program rating.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

...we use this one and it works just fine.

QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 25 2008, 12:58 PM) *
Technomancer's have been pushed to the side it seems by a majority of dump shockers. Hopefully Unwired will make them more usable.

I like them, but I seem to be in the minority, that is willing to work with their flaws and just have fun with them. I also don't go the path of pokemon, I mean sprite collector. I use sprites like mages use watcher spirits most of the time.

...yeah TMs are best left in a reinforced concrete box somewhere away from things like spells, bullets, and falling bovines. If they are supposed to be the outgrowth of Otaku then their primary ability should not suffer from cyber augmentation as their predecessors needed implants to link with the matrix. If anything TMs should desire to become more like the machine IMO.
Lionhearted
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 25 2008, 09:40 PM) *
There's a house rule floating around here somewhere that deals with this. I think its something like:

Attribute + Skill, successes capped by program rating.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


Hm I like that *Snitch* the hacker in my game will be pleased biggrin.gif
on a second note, I like how this simple enquiry is developing into a fullfledged thread
deek
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Apr 25 2008, 04:35 PM) *
Hm I like that *Snitch* the hacker in my game will be pleased biggrin.gif
on a second note, I like how this simple enquiry is developing into a fullfledged thread

Its a Friday, and if you are like me (and in the Eastern Timezone), I'm at work, with everything wrapped up for the week and have nothing better to do than post my thoughts and experiences on SR4:)
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (deek @ Apr 25 2008, 03:38 PM) *
Its a Friday, and if you are like me (and in the Eastern Timezone), I'm at work, with everything wrapped up for the week and have nothing better to do than post my thoughts and experiences on SR4:)


My position as well... Though less wrapped up, and more just waiting for things to finish. biggrin.gif
baburabi
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 25 2008, 03:40 PM) *
There's a house rule floating around here somewhere that deals with this. I think its something like:

Attribute + Skill, successes capped by program rating.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


yes, i believe this is the "official" houserule, but the one i like to use is

Skill+Program, successes capped by Logic+1.

either one will make all three things important for hacking, I feel in real life you need the natural ability, the know how, and the technology to get things done, it is just a matter of which is most important. For me its more about the skill and tech, but your "intelligence" will limit how far you can go with that.
Sponge
QUOTE (Balcon13 @ Apr 25 2008, 12:54 PM) *
Also a good hacker with a high logic is unhappy with level 6 programs. The hacker in my group is in the process of writting a level 10 progam (not sure what type) lets see a person with a low logic do that with any real success.

QUOTE (Beetle @ Apr 25 2008, 03:02 PM) *

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't have my book with me, but I thought comm's maxed out at 6 and can't run programs with a rating higher than that...



That's my understanding as well - it seems to be implied that Rating 6 is the maximum rating available for commlinks and programs, although maybe Unwired will have something more concrete to say about this (one way or the other)

DS
kigmatzomat
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 25 2008, 03:42 PM) *
But that one makes Technomancer threading pointless.


I never quite understood that. Why would threading be pointless? ( I say this with the caveat that our TM has been in the game 1 session. )

Seems to me that threading would let the TM focus on the most useful programs (say, Armor) and then thread up those "useful at rating 1-2" programs as needed. I admit that threading for higher levels wouldn't be as big a deal.


QUOTE
Bad Technomancers breaking everything. Thats why their so hated, not because of their wireless otaku abilites but because they have severly screwed up the Matrix rules (or any chance of houseruling them).


So far our TM is more of a "machine buff" person, loading registered remote tasked sprites onto the team's gear. A rating 3 machine sprite with diagnostics loaded onto a weapon is a super smartlink. That rating 3 machine sprite with autosoft(maneuver) is a significant upgrade to many vehicles. I'm happy when he loads a rating 4 w/autosoft(targeting) on the doberman when I'm running another drone. We let him roll all the dice from his sprites, which keeps everyone in the know as to how much he's contributing.

'Course, he liked playing Weaponsmiths in Earthdawn, which is another "party buff" class.
stevebugge
I suspect both the value of Logic and the program rating rules will be revisited in Unwired. Of course it doesn't help much right now.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Apr 25 2008, 04:41 PM) *
I suspect both the value of Logic and the program rating rules will be revisited in Unwired. Of course it doesn't help much right now.

That is what many here are hoping too.

I use the House Rule of Skill + Attribute capped by program rating, works well.

WMS
Cabral
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 25 2008, 03:29 PM) *
...yeah TMs are best left in a reinforced concrete box somewhere away from things like spells, bullets, and falling bovines. If they are supposed to be the outgrowth of Otaku then their primary ability should not suffer from cyber augmentation as their predecessors needed implants to link with the matrix. If anything TMs should desire to become more like the machine IMO.

Well, linguistic gymnastics aside, they are really Awakened Hackers with Magic ratings, Intitiation, Spirits and Spells. Unwired will probably add Mentor Spirits, Initiatory Groups, Foci, etc ...

They may be called Ressonance, Spirites, Complex Forms, etc, but a "A rose by any other name ..." and all that ...

With all of SR4s unification of mechanics, Technomancers stick out like a sore thumb.
Tarantula
I think the more elegant way to make TMs work, would be to have them have required cyberware, like the riggers of 3rd. Essence heavy, and grants a significant bonus. That would keep them distanced from mages (with magic), but keep them with integrating with the machine.
Earlydawn
I have a feeling that a lot of the Unwired features are going to center on logic.. programming, patching, etc.
Buster
I was a network engineer for 7 years and I've been a software developer for the last 7 years and I can say that I was never limited by a bad program. I could absolutely do more, faster with a good program, but I was never limited by a crappy program. Therefore I don't like the Logic + Skill limit hits by Program rating house rule. Instead I like the Logic + Skill + Tool bonus for programs. This makes programs tools instead of agents and makes brains important in the game again.
ArkonC
QUOTE (Buster @ Apr 26 2008, 11:05 PM) *
I was a network engineer for 7 years and I've been a software developer for the last 7 years and I can say that I was never limited by a bad program. I could absolutely do more, faster with a good program, but I was never limited by a crappy program. Therefore I don't like the Logic + Skill limit hits by Program rating house rule. Instead I like the Logic + Skill + Tool bonus for programs. This makes programs tools instead of agents and makes brains important in the game again.

I actually like this idea, matrix actions are Logic+Skill+Program, that way logic becomes important, your successes aren't limited...
Seems good...
We've also been toying with the idea of making the interval for programming 1 hour and raising the threshold...
That way you could just open your workspace and code while you're waiting, and feel like you're actually accomplishing something...
We're not quite sure what to make the threshold though...
But making writing your own programs usefull would also restore the value of logic...
cndblank
On the TM, the no cyberware rule is rather counter intuitive.

They should be able to have at least 1 essence point of cyberware or Bioware free.
kigmatzomat
QUOTE (Buster @ Apr 26 2008, 05:05 PM) *
I was a network engineer for 7 years and I've been a software developer for the last 7 years and I can say that I was never limited by a bad program. I could absolutely do more, faster with a good program, but I was never limited by a crappy program. Therefore I don't like the Logic + Skill limit hits by Program rating house rule. Instead I like the Logic + Skill + Tool bonus for programs. This makes programs tools instead of agents and makes brains important in the game again.



Those were probably all extended tests. Crappy software means you have to take more time to get things done while good software gets done faster. Crappy software doesn't outright prevent you from completing a task unless your GM applies the optional limit on extended rolls.

I am going to call shenanigans, though. There's no way in 14 years you never ran into a bug, poorly or undocumented limitation, or outright crappy bit of software that refused to do what it was supposed to. I rarely go two weeks without running up against a software limitation even in relatively mature and robust programs.

That or you're IT Jesus and can heal buggy software with a touch.
Sponge
QUOTE (Buster @ Apr 26 2008, 04:05 PM) *
I was a network engineer for 7 years and I've been a software developer for the last 7 years and I can say that I was never limited by a bad program. I could absolutely do more, faster with a good program, but I was never limited by a crappy program. Therefore I don't like the Logic + Skill limit hits by Program rating house rule. Instead I like the Logic + Skill + Tool bonus for programs. This makes programs tools instead of agents and makes brains important in the game again.


I like this idea as well, the only problem is that it throws all the Matrix pools out of whack with the existing thresholds and would require a significant reworking of the numbers to have things balance out again.

DS
Cthulhudreams
Skill + Attribute + Tool does throw the system out of wack.

As for the hardware + software line of thought - with a mundane hacker, there is almost no point taking the skills anyway thanks to skillwires. If your character has high edge (not a bad investment anyway) logic 2 + skill wires 3 + edge 5 are more than enough to suceed in the check at very low investment.
Cain
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 27 2008, 04:12 PM) *
Skill + Attribute + Tool does throw the system out of wack.

As for the hardware + software line of thought - with a mundane hacker, there is almost no point taking the skills anyway thanks to skillwires. If your character has high edge (not a bad investment anyway) logic 2 + skill wires 3 + edge 5 are more than enough to suceed in the check at very low investment.

Except you can't use Edge like that with skillwires. frown.gif
Cthulhudreams
Except you can thanks to skillwire expert system. Which is so cheap I figure its mandatory for any mundane build (where skillwires are also mandatory.)
Cabral
Related question: The BBB states that Logic+Skill is used when directly interfacing with a device. ... What qualifies as directly interfacing?
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cabral @ Apr 27 2008, 06:35 PM) *
Related question: The BBB states that Logic+Skill is used when directly interfacing with a device. ... What qualifies as directly interfacing?


My interpretation would be, hands/tools on a circuit board.
Cabral
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 27 2008, 08:39 PM) *
My interpretation would be, hands/tools on a circuit board.

Actually there are two references (I didn't have my book with me earlier):
Pg 218 - When dealing with a particular device, use Computer+Logic. When using a particular program, use Computer+Program rating.
Pg 223 - When interfacing with a device directly, use Hacking+Logic. When using a program, use Hacking+Program Rating.

If it was as you described, I would expect it to be Hardware+Logic. It seems like it's saying that high logic hackers can be extremely minimal on their programs. Without "exceptionally rare and hard to come by" comlinks, a hacker with 6+ Logic is better served by taking unique function programs (Armor, Stealth, etc) and going off of natural ability for everything else.

Now, I don't think that interpretation holds too much water, nor do I think it should. But those phrases bring up some interesting questions I haven't seen asked.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Cabral @ Apr 27 2008, 06:35 PM) *
Related question: The BBB states that Logic+Skill is used when directly interfacing with a device. ... What qualifies as directly interfacing?


My interpretation is, by the BBB, you use Logic + Skill for any tests where you are physically manipulating the device, requiring the device to have a physical form. You use Program + Skill for any tests where you are digitally manipulating the device, requiring it to have digital coding.

House rule currently used is Logic + Skill, with digital manipulation hits capped at Program Rating x 2

QUOTE (Cabral @ Apr 27 2008, 07:01 PM) *
Actually there are two references (I didn't have my book with me earlier):
Pg 218 - When dealing with a particular device, use Computer+Logic. When using a particular program, use Computer+Program rating.
Pg 223 - When interfacing with a device directly, use Hacking+Logic. When using a program, use Hacking+Program Rating.

If it was as you described, I would expect it to be Hardware+Logic. It seems like it's saying that high logic hackers can be extremely minimal on their programs. Without "exceptionally rare and hard to come by" comlinks, a hacker with 6+ Logic is better served by taking unique function programs (Armor, Stealth, etc) and going off of natural ability for everything else.

Now, I don't think that interpretation holds too much water, nor do I think it should. But those phrases bring up some interesting questions I haven't seen asked.


This is how several members of my group interpret the BBB rules as well. If you do not have the program, you use Logic in place of Program Rating, removing the need for programs for tests requiring a dice roll. Due to the shitty wording of the matrix RAW, this may even be the "correct" interpretation.
Cthulhudreams
that is a huge stretch of the word 'interfacing' When I drill a hole in a wall, I don't 'interface' with it.

I think its just an editing mistake where the program + skill matrix was not carried on throughout the book. If taken in context with the FAQ enytry that says you default to logic when you have a program, it makes more sense, but also makes programs useless.
Fortune
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 28 2008, 10:52 AM) *
Except you can thanks to skillwire expert system. Which is so cheap I figure its mandatory for any mundane build (where skillwires are also mandatory.)


QUOTE (SR4 pg. 42)
Skillwire Expert System: This modification package boosts the performance of a skillwire system, improving the integration of skillsoft simsense data with the user's own neurotransmitters and neuromuscular junctions. This implant allows a character with a skillwire system (p. 335, SR4) to use Edge to re-roll a failed test when using skillsofts; Edge may not be used in any other way to boost tests with skillsofts (see p. 320, SR4).
Cabral
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 27 2008, 09:02 PM) *
If taken in context with the FAQ enytry that says you default to logic when you have a program, it makes more sense, but also makes programs useless.

Actually, I hadn't noticed that FAQ entry. Thanks!
The FAQ entry isn't too clear on how "defaulting" works in that regard, but I suspect the character's dicepool becomes Skill -1.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Fortune)


Pesky kids!

Oh well, I'll have to console myself with 5 dice and a re-roll instead wink.gif

QUOTE (Cabral @ Apr 27 2008, 11:03 PM) *

Actually, I hadn't noticed that FAQ entry. Thanks!
The FAQ entry isn't too clear on how "defaulting" works in that regard, but I suspect the character's dicepool becomes Skill -1.


This isn't as obvious as you think it is. Every other time 'defaulting' is used, you default to the attribute - but it doesn't make any sense in a world in which the program replaces the attribute. However, saying that you default to logic + skill -1 is a perfectly reasonable reading of that setup.
Shiloh
Played the BSG intro game last night, and that has a cool mechanic for extended tests:

Score x successes, rolling every [time interval], roll as many times as you need, but if you botch, you can't complete it. The example given was a yomp of about 35 km which needed a total of 95 to be rolled on successive rolls (2 dice of variable values dependent on stats/skills, add them). If you botched (both dice come up 1) you couldn't go any further and needed to rest.

Same could be used for ending extended tests in SR: if you glitch you can't roll any more.
Sponge
QUOTE (Cabral @ Apr 27 2008, 08:35 PM) *
Related question: The BBB states that Logic+Skill is used when directly interfacing with a device. ... What qualifies as directly interfacing?


When you are using a device or program for its intended purpose and within its parameters, rather than using your own hacking programs to make it do something unintended. For example, if there's a computer serving as a control console for a robot, you would use Logic + Computers to control the robot from the computer.

DS
ArkonC
QUOTE (Sponge @ Apr 28 2008, 04:43 PM) *
When you are using a device or program for its intended purpose and within its parameters, rather than using your own hacking programs to make it do something unintended. For example, if there's a computer serving as a control console for a robot, you would use Logic + Computers to control the robot from the computer.

DS

Not really, if I use the Analyze program for it's intended function and within it's parameters, I roll Analyze+Computer, not Logic+Computer...
Synner
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Apr 28 2008, 04:52 PM) *
Not really, if I use the Analyze program for it's intended function and within it's parameters, I roll Analyze+Computer, not Logic+Computer...

Sponge is partially correct. Analyze is a Program not a device and the core book (and the FAQ) refers specifically to devices—meaning is that when you are physically interfacing/controlling/using a device through its (physical) interface/menus/controls (configuring a full media suite, setting your sound equipment to record, typing contact data into your commlink, joystick controlling a robot, etc) you use Logic + Computer. It's when you're bypassing the physical interface and actually hacking/using a program to interface with the device's firmware or software remotely via AR or VR then you use Program + Skill.
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