Mage Matrix Runner, Are mages better deckers then deckers? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Screamin Demon]

So... Is there any reason why a mage with a decent 'Analyze Device' roll (Spirit assist and edge on the roll, a focus to sustain it, or just a couple doses of psyche to tank the penalti (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) ) and the improved initiative spell couldn't hack circles around any conventional hacker with the same equipment?

I know it costs a good deal to pull off, but it can be done. I am running this by you people before I go pwning my deckers with mage hackers. They keep trying to hack big corporations and I am frustrated in trying to stop them.

As we are on the topic, what would the average stats for a big corp system be?

[Wasabi]

So... Is there any reason why a mage with a decent 'Analyze Device' roll (Spirit assist and edge on the roll, a focus to sustain it, or just a couple doses of psyche to tank the penalti (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) ) and the improved initiative spell couldn't hack circles around any conventional hacker with the same equipment?

I know it costs a good deal to pull off, but it can be done. I am running this by you people before I go pwning my deckers with mage hackers. They keep trying to hack corperations and I am frusterated in trying to stop them

A mage hacker using analyze device makes another hacker very very effective but AFAIK when in full VR spells do not affect the VR'ed mind only the body left behind. This means spells aid a AR-based hacker but the only things that can be interfaced with in AR are those designed for it by the engineer making the site. VR can go everywhere that has a signal, wire, camera feed, etc.

[Cthulhudreams]

There are no limits given for AR in the manner you describe. Given that, a mage is a very potent AR hacker, but adepts are probably better.

[Screamin Demon]

Actually... the mage hacker of my design wouldn't need to use AR at all. With improved initiative he gets full IPs, only thing he would be missing out on would be the +2 Hot Sim bonus, but by sacrificing that he evades personal damage altogether.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'm guessing you mean that you wouldn't have to use VR, and in which case yes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Rad]

Hmm, I'll have to look into this...

I was working on an idea for an electrically themed Mage/Hacker that goes by the name of "Arc", but frag it, this idea could really save some BP's...

[Fortune]

... or just a couple doses of psyche to tank the penalti ...

Despite the smiley, on the off-chance that this be taken seriously, I would never allow the benefits of Psyche to stack.

[Screamin Demon]

Ah, you misunderstand my smiley. I didn't mean 2 doses of psyche to stack and cancel out the -2. I was making fun of people who like to use the word 'Boni' by using the made up word 'Penalti'. Now that I look at it all spelled out it seems both stupid and ridiculous, though, so I can easily understand your confusion.

CthulhuDreams, You are right, I didn't even think about adepts. So rock a mystic adept with 2 points of magic invested in power points getting 6 levels of Skill Bonus: Hacking an effective magic of 3 for spellcasting, and 1 for conjuring.
With force 6 analyze devise spells and a host force 2 spirits to aid in casting that puts your cybercombat dicepool at roughly 20 for a starting character. Niiiiiiiiiice.


I am not a real decker buff, would hacking be the best investment for the skill bonus?

Also, any ideas on big corp security (And even a few IC statlines) will be rewarded with gold doubloons.

[Muspellsheimr]

CthulhuDreams, You are right, I didn't even think about adepts. So rock a mystic adept with 2 points of magic invested in power points getting 6 levels of Skill Bonus: Hacking an effective magic of 3 for spellcasting, and 1 for conjuring.
With force 6 analyze devise spells and a host force 2 spirits to aid in casting that puts your cybercombat dicepool at roughly 20 for a starting character. Niiiiiiiiiice.

Considering the OR of a commlink would be 4, possibly higher for corporate-level systems, the Force 6 Analyze Device (assuming a good roll) would barely cancel out the bonus for sustaining it.

The best hacker would be an Adept with the Hacking skill boosted to 10, other 'hacking' skills boosted to 8 or so. Or, if using Trollman's matrix rules (very good, with a few minor changes), a Technomancer is also viable.

[Cthulhudreams]

Or, if using Trollman's matrix rules (very good, with a few minor changes), a Technomancer is also viable.

If it wasn;t for the overhead in getting your players to buy in, I'd unquestionably recommend these out of the box. As is, if you can get get across that crevasse, I'd recommend them highly.

[Sir_Psycho]

If they're trying to hack corps, just raise the device ratings of the corp systems. R6 is not a hard cap on ratings. Just give a corp system a firewall of 10, and some R8 IC with R8 Attack, Armor, Blackout, Tracker, etc. If they don't learn, then next time make it a R10 IC and add Black Hammer to the list. And then design the Node architecture so that they actually fall through IC filled trap-door systems that take them FURTHER away from the destination Node.

That or just hold their character sheets over a paper shredder, turn it on and scream over the roar of the shredder, "I'LL DO IT SO HELP ME GOD!"

[Screamin Demon]

Considering the OR of a commlink would be 4, possibly higher for corporate-level systems, the Force 6 Analyze Device (assuming a good roll) would barely cancel out the bonus for sustaining it.

Mmm... Going core adept and giving yourself nominal decking boosts (+4-6 depending on what action you are taking) is not as good as a force 6-8 analyze device spell from which, with a dice pool of (6+8+6+4+2) 26 (Skill with appropriate specialization, Spirit help, Magic Stat, Edge Spent, Totem Spec,) you could well generate 6 successes over threshold 4 giving you +6 to all matrix actions. The -2 of sustaining it could easily be lessened with drugs or eliminated with spirit assistance.

And you'd have a broad spectrum of other resources. Like other spells to get 4 IP's (Something an adept decker wont have without running Hot VR) and handle non-matrix situations and spirits watching over your meat while you hack.

I see now though that its one way or the other. A Mystic Adept would be hard pressed to overcome the Comlink's threshold, which I believe is capped at 4 no matter how high tech it is. Too bad there is no effect of having a spirit possessing your Comlink...

If they're trying to hack corps, just raise the device ratings of the corp systems. R6 is not a hard cap on ratings. Just give a corp system a firewall of 10, and some R8 IC with R8 Attack, Armor, Blackout, Tracker, etc. If they don't learn, then next time make it a R10 IC and add Black Hammer to the list. And then design the Node architecture so that they actually fall through IC filled trap-door systems that take them FURTHER away from the destination Node.

Thanks, I just needed a little validation to raise corp stat computers over 6. With no unspoken caps I could easily see a megacorp node topping 12, easily. Thanks, and I like my party deckers, but one of them has high aims and I wanted to be respond realistically.

[WeaverMount]

Something else to consider, while a mage could make good decker, a possession mage makes a CRAZY good rigger. Think about force 6 spirit of man with mana static and demolish gun as optional powers possessing a roto-drone. You now have an un-hackable drone with a1 shot nut-punches to both magic and guns. Also I really don't think there is much that can cut 12 hardened armor without guns or magic. Well there is martial arts maneuvers, but thats why you have a flying drone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) . Best part, it doesn't really cost you an extra BP/Karma to do it. your mage/deck should already be a logic tradition, and Analyze device works just as well for moding drones.

[Muspellsheimr]

Mmm... Going core adept and giving yourself nominal decking boosts (+4-6 depending on what action you are taking) is not as good as a force 6-8 analyze device spell from which, with a dice pool of (6+8+6+4+2) 26 (Skill with appropriate specialization, Spirit help, Magic Stat, Edge Spent, Totem Spec,) you could well generate 6 successes over threshold 4 giving you +6 to all matrix actions. The -2 of sustaining it could easily be lessened with drugs or eliminated with spirit assistance.

A spell's Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test.

The caster must gain enouh hits on he Sellcasting Test to beat the item's Object Resistance (see p. 174). Each net hit gives the subject a bonus die while operating the device

I see now though that its one way or the other. A Mystic Adept would be hard pressed to overcome the Comlink's threshold, which I believe is capped at 4 no matter how high tech it is. Too bad there is no effect of having a spirit possessing your Comlink...

Highly Processed Objects

(Computers, Complex Toxic Wastes, Drones, Vehicles) - *4+*

[Screamin Demon]

Okay, I guess you are kind of right. Factually anyways.

Analyze My Comlink(Touch, Specific target) has a drain value of Force/2-2. Cast it with a cool electro urban shaman flavored fetish and keep your drain stats marginally boosted.

Lets cast it at force 12 and stop worrying about it! Any mage worth his mana (See above) can suck down 4 points of drain without falling into hysterics.

See the above post for the math on getting 5 or 6 net hits.
Admittedly you will be most likely suffering the -1 dice pool for sustaining it yourself, but it is still the most viable build yet presented.

Something else to consider, while a mage could make good decker, a possession mage makes a CRAZY good rigger. Think about force 6 spirit of man with mana static and demolish gun as optional powers possessing a roto-drone. You now have an un-hackable drone with a1 shot nut-punches to both magic and guns. Also I really don't think there is much that can cut 12 hardened armor without guns or magic. Well there is martial arts maneuvers, but thats why you have a flying drone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) . Best part, it doesn't really cost you an extra BP/Karma to do it. your mage/deck should already be a logic tradition, and Analyze device works just as well for moding drones.

Weavermount now its your turn to be silly. Possessing spirits can't deck, reread the sidebar on what a spirit can and cannot do while possessing you. It works decently on drones, but I think the build benefits from spirits assisting the mage in casting (Can a possessing spirit assist? Lemme look in on this one) analyze device is more valuable over all.

You are correct about rigging though. With a separate spell 'Analyze My Simrig' the same mage could both Rig and Deck at monster dice pools. By the Gods I sometimes wish I were not the GM...
Guess he will make a helluva nemesis though. A Decker/Rigger Mage with spirit guards, and Miniguns he can access with the swap of a node... I am going to sit down and knock it all down, I know that is a lot of skills to purchase... Lemme see if I can make it in under 400 BPs.

[Muspellsheimr]

An adept hacker can reach 14 + Program/Logic dice pool. +2 for Hot Sim, with a total of 4 passes. Still have Power Points & Essence to spare.

Your mage, assuming 6 net hits and continuous use of Psych, can reach 14 + Program/Logic (1 pass), or 13 + Program/Logic (4 pass). You can spare a single point of essence for a possible +2. Still below the Adept.

Please note, these are 400-point starting characters.

A technomancer (at starting) can reach nearly the same levels as the adept, with or without augmentation, with no limits to future advancement.

[Screamin Demon]

An adept hacker can reach 14 + Program/Logic dice pool. +2 for Hot Sim, with a total of 4 passes. Still have Power Points & Essence to spare.

Your mage, assuming 6 net hits and continuous use of Psych, can reach 14 + Program/Logic (1 pass), or 13 + Program/Logic (4 pass). You can spare a single point of essence for a possible +2. Still below the Adept.

The Adept would only be able to hit that level for certain skills, as there are many different skills that apply to decking, that is one of the cool things about the mage build, Analyze devices provides the bonus to all associated test.

The force 4 improved initiative spell can easily be sustained by a spirit for you, and the mage would be able not only deck better overall then the adept, but also be a badass rigger and cast spells and summon spirits. As was said above.

Granted, a specialized technomancer owns everybody at that one thing, but again, that is the only trick the technomancer gets to know, and they are panty-waists when they are in the meat.

[WeaverMount]

Weavermount now its your turn to be silly. Possessing spirits can't deck...

I never say they needed to. On the mundane end of things you turn off all the wireless on the drone and tell it to coordinate fire/acquire targets with the sammie via the indirect fire rules. The spirit possess the drone like in the example with the sports car and ignores to weapon system. Maybe you have to uninstall the mount, have the spirit possess the drone, then reinstall the mount to make sure that the pilot can still operate the mount, but it's workable. You now issue movement and magic orders via the spirit. Vuala! 1 un-hackable drone. No spirit decking.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

By the way, how exactly is the mage casting analyze device on the actual device in question? His commlink is no problem, but his target should really be the other system that may be halfway across the world - since that's where his programs and the opponent IC/hackers are operating.

[WeaverMount]

That's like saying your don't use the gun in your hand you "use" the guy you shoot in the the face. You operate your comlink and manipulate the target node. If I trying to pull this malarky in game hind under Mama-RAW's skirt I'd fully expect the GM to say no. Then I'd make my valid RAW case, and they would say no. And that would be that.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

No - I'm saying it probably shouldn't work like that for the same reason rigging your car won't change the red traffic signals faster.

One is the object you're directly affecting, the other is the object you want to alter, but have no direct influence over.

Or, to use your gun example - casting analyze device on your gun won't make you dodge better - but you're arguing that it should, for hacking purposes, at least.

Your game may vary, of course.

[Screamin Demon]

If you read the description of 'Analyze Device' it says you get the bonus to using the device. Anything you do on the Matrix is done through using your comlink (Bonus while operating the device, which being your link to the matrix would apply to any action you take place while so engaged). Your semantic argument is faulty because you are using an angle of logic that is not applicable. You should re-read the spell perhaps? (Pg 198 SR4).

How come so much negative feedback? Is it not a viable idea? I thought it was fraggin awesome yet everyone seems so disgusted...

[Sombranox]

I think the disgust lies in the fact that a 3 BP spell is worded in such a way that certain interpretations would allow it to replace and possibly exceed a whole host of skills with a single casting. Computer, Data search, Cybercombat, Hacking, and Electronic Warfare at the very least

I'm trying to be neutral on whether it could work or not, though I lean towards not as its just too game breaking to replace five skills with one casting. That said, the only time I've seen the spell cast in my group was someone picking up an exotic ranged weapon laser and using the spell at force 6 to get 2 dice to use it (OR 4 took the first four hits, 2 net over that), so none of my people ever thought of using it on a commlink apparently.

[Leofski]

Anylyse Device is nice, but if that's all your taking magician for you might as well just use diagnostics instead. No object resistance to worry about there and, for all their fragility and RAW inefficiency, technos putting threading to its optimal use are still the heavyweight champs of the matrix once they get going.

For all that mages are still more useful. Much more useful.

[WeaverMount]

Or, to use your gun example - casting analyze device on your gun won't make you dodge better - but you're arguing that it should, for hacking purposes, at least.

Your game may vary, of course.

You horrably miss read my post. I think that if you cast Analyze Device on your gun you get bonus dice to shoot with it. No clue why you think I think that it would help with dodging.
-RAW say that the spell can give you bonus dice while operating a device or piece of equipment.
-A comlink is a device or piece of equipment.
-The spell gives you bonus dice to operating a comlink.
QED

Love it, hate it, throw it out the window. That's how it works.

You don't have to cast analyze device on a some mark to "operate" your gun at them. Just like you don't have to cast it on the sever you want to hack.