Geist in the Shell Options

[WeaverMount]

Ok so I had a philosophy professor talking about how the German word "Geist" is very close the English word ghost, especially when take off in the spirit/soul/mind direction rather than the specter/haunt direction. So as he is talking about Hegel's "Phänomenologie des Geistes" I'm thinking "Oh, given German interests in cyber-punk, and the level of German-Japanese cross pollinated thinking this is where Shirow was going with that".

I didn't know where else to find German speaking cyber-punks fans to ask if this makes any sense ... um trolls, deckers, dwarfs, Hermetics, tir, NAN, UCAS, cyberzombies, IP, net hits, foci. SR SR SR really ... yeah.

[Speed Wraith]

For sure. They never explained how they quantified or transferred the 'Ghost Line' that I can remember, but that's absolutely where it comes from.

[Adarael]

I can give you an almost iron-clad guarantee that this is exactly the case. Japan's dialectic on western philosophy and cultural theory is almost universally informed by Germany and France, due to their prominence in world politics during the late Meiji and early Taisho eras. That's why most of the Japanese words for medical terms and western philosophical terms are rooted in German and French words, for instance. The same is also true in reverse, as well: a majority of academic publishing on Japanese cultural studies is in these languages. Not being able to sprechen deutsch or parler français, I have rammed my academic face into this wall more times than I care to recall.

So yes: I would be shocked if this was not the case.

[Aaron]

Does anybody know of any anime or manga that is based around Also Sprach Zarathustra or anything else by Nietzsche-esque?

[Zak]

Does anybody know of any anime or manga that is based around Also Sprach Zarathustra or anything else by Nietzsche-esque?

Oh man, I'd so love to see that.
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While I agree that Hegel was/is really influential in philosophy (and politics, but usually in a twisted way) I would not go as far as claiming he was a direct inspiration for GitS. Then again, I never read the mangas.
The "problem" with these early universal philosophers is that you will always find references(acknowledged or not) to them in following works. One of the reason they are worth reading, brainpain by sentence structures included. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Adarael]

Xenosaga. Sort of. Inasmuch as Xenosaga makes any sort of sense.
(Don't get me wrong, I love Xenosaga, but it's a bit disjointed.)

[WeaverMount]

I would not go as far as claiming he was a direct inspiration for GitS.

Neither did I. I was just asking if made sense to say that Shirow was not thinking "Ghost" so much as "Giest". The only reason Hegel comes into the equation is that was the context that allowed me, a non-German speaker, to infer the definition of "Giest"

[Zak]

hehe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Geist is one of those tricky words you can't properly translate because it carries so many meanings depending on how you use it.

As far as I am informed by using the german term in other languages it is marked which line of though is actually meant without referring to it everytime in footnotes. German works use special markings (capitals, italics, etc) when referring to philosophical keywords. Don't take this for granted, academic philosophy is not really a key proficency of mine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Stahlseele]

ah, yes, our glorious language spreads it's tentacles anywhere . . kinda like japanese anime . . with the Word Geist it is really not easy to find out if the writer means the philosophical part of you being you, your soul, your knowledge, your intellect . . or a spirit . . you really have to read and understand the whole context . . now imagine having to read a philosophical spooky story in German . .

[Adarael]

Geist and unheimlich are both totally awesome, difficult to translate German words. Especially given that "uncanny" - which is what unheimlich is translated as, does not have an opposite, despite the word structure implying that 'canny' would be the opposite.

[Stahlseele]

heimlich is the opposite of unheimlich, but it would translate to sneaky in english more or less . . and unheimlich would translate into scary in most cases concerning ghosts *g*

[MarCazm]

heimlich is the opposite of unheimlich, but it would translate to sneaky in english more or less . . and unheimlich would translate into scary in most cases concerning ghosts *g*

Sorry to bother but heimlich isn't the opposite of unheimlich. They're just similar words and i really don't think they're connected. Never heard of such in all these years.

Heimlich indeed is the word for stealthy or covertly. Unheimleich means scary or weird.

You can also use unheimlich to describe something which is really big for example. That's f...ing (unheimlich) big or good. Thats more common language.

To get more to the point of GitS:

If it should mean the philosophical or theological meaning the better german word would be Seele, which means soul.

Although Geist also can mean soul but in a more physical way. Like it's to measure.

Priest are also called Geistliche in german.

So it's very hard to consider which word really fits better or which meaning the author really wanted to figure.

[Stahlseele]

yeah, most of the time unheimlich is used like fucking as an adjective *g*
but technically speaking one could translate unheimlich with openly because heimlich translates as sneaky . .
he's not sneaky evil, he is openly evil . .
er ist nicht heimlich böse, er ist unheimlich böse . .

[Shiloh]

yeah, most of the time unheimlich is used like fucking as an adjective *g*
but technically speaking one could translate unheimlich with openly because heimlich translates as sneaky . .
he's not sneaky evil, he is openly evil . .
er ist nicht heimlich böse, er ist unheimlich böse . .

I've always read "Unheimlich" as "unholy" in the sense of disturbing. It's no more an exact translation than "scary", but carries some of the same connotations. Is that fair?

[Stahlseele]

in translations most things are fair game . . it's the meaning in context that is important, not the perfect word to word translation . . but unholy? that would be unheilig in germany . .
like i said, unheimlich most of the time is used like fucking . . this is fucking big . . das ist unheimlich groß . .

[Grinder]

I've always read "Unheimlich" as "unholy" in the sense of disturbing. It's no more an exact translation than "scary", but carries some of the same connotations. Is that fair?

No, unholy would be un-heilig or nicht heilig, while scary is a better translation for unheimlich.

[MYST1C]

"Oh, given German interests in cyber-punk, and the level of German-Japanese cross pollinated thinking this is where Shirow was going with that".

Good place to ask the question:
Did Shirow himself actually coin the title Ghost in the Shell? I've always seen this as merely the somewhat content-related export name of the manga/anime as the original Japanese title of the series AFAIK translates as "Mobile Armored Riot Police" or somesuch (which is hardly philosophical)...

[MaxHunter]

I like the broader meaning of the word Geist, much richer and somewhat different than the English word.

However, I do not think Shirow was thinking on Hegelian terms when he created the series (I am not even sure the where the translation comes from, as Myst1c pointed out already) In Hegel's philosophical framework -and please note this is an extreme oversimplification- "Geist" could also mean "reason", "essence", "freedom", particularly if we think of references to the zeitgeist "the spirit of the time". I do not see much specific reference to Hegel's philosophy in GITs, at least not more than the influence most contemporary philosophical traditions have of Hegel and Kant. There are, yes, many more explicit philosophical influences -and references- in Gits, mainly french postmodern philosophers like Derrida, plus concepts from stucturalism and social theory.

And I love the series.

Cheers

Max

[nezumi]

Heimlich indeed is the word for stealthy or covertly.

I know it doesn't translate over, but I don't think I'm going to think of the Heimlich maneuver the same way again.

[Stahlseele]

i was wondering if someone was going to make that joke . . i still don't understand why the frag it's called the heimlich-maneuver anyway . .

[DubioserKerl]

The Heimlich Maneuver is called "Heimlich" because a guy named "Henry J. Heimlich" invented it, not because it acually is an "unheimliches Maneuver".

And for the "heimlich" - "unheimlich" discussion: "unheimlich" is a synthesis of "un-" and "heimlich". The "un-" is a reversing prefix. In this case, the "heimlich" is not to be translated with "sneaky", it is meant in an old-fashioned manner (no one today uses it like this): "heim-e-lich" (the "e" is just a filler character and was discarded in the history of this word) means "like home". so, something spooky is "unheimlich", making you feel uncomfortable, and not to feel like you are in your safe home.

I don't know why the word "heimlich" made it to the meaning of "sneaky", but that's how it is.

DK, native German speaker

Edit: Added information after being corrected by Mr. Stahlseele

[Adarael]

I just realized that some of this confusion is due to the fact that, not knowing German, I cannot spell. I wrote unheimlich, whereas the word that I was referring to is unheimliche, as in Das Unheimliche by Freud. Stupid dropped 'e'.

And yes, DK, I know the feeling. I often wonder why "infamous" in English is used to mean the same as "famous", only with negative connotations. One would expect it to mean non-famous. I usually just blame English's oddities on the fact that it's cobbled together out of pieces of everything else.

[DubioserKerl]

well, infamous is at least an opposite of famous, while inflammable = flammable. THAT is confusing.

[Stahlseele]

The Heimlich Maneuver is called "Heimlich" because a guy named "Henry J. Heimlich" invented it, not because it acually is an "unheimliches Maneuver".

And for the "heimlich" - "unheimlich" discussion: "unheimlich" is a synthesis of "un-" and "heimlich". The "un-" is a reversing prefix. In this case, the "heimlich" is not to be translated with "sneaky", it is meant in an old-fashioned manner (no one today uses it like this): "heim-lich" means "like home". so, something spooky is "unheimlich", making you feel uncomfortable, and not to feel like you are in your safe home.

I don't know why the word "heimlich" made it to the meaning of "sneaky", but that's how it is.

DK, native German speaker

no no no no no . . heimlich=sneaky, heimelich=homely/like home . . there's just one e in there and nobody uses THIS word as of today . .
how it went from homely to sneaky is easyly explained . . things that stay at home are mostly kept secret so the transition from secret to sneaky is easy enough. .
and i am native german speaker too . . as people will probably have realized by my sub par english by now *g*

[DubioserKerl]

Okay okay, i forgot about the middle "e" in heimelich ^^
But, it is still composed of "Heim" and "-lich" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)