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WeaverMount
Ok so I had a philosophy professor talking about how the German word "Geist" is very close the English word ghost, especially when take off in the spirit/soul/mind direction rather than the specter/haunt direction. So as he is talking about Hegel's "Phänomenologie des Geistes" I'm thinking "Oh, given German interests in cyber-punk, and the level of German-Japanese cross pollinated thinking this is where Shirow was going with that".

I didn't know where else to find German speaking cyber-punks fans to ask if this makes any sense ... um trolls, deckers, dwarfs, Hermetics, tir, NAN, UCAS, cyberzombies, IP, net hits, foci. SR SR SR really ... yeah.
Speed Wraith
For sure. They never explained how they quantified or transferred the 'Ghost Line' that I can remember, but that's absolutely where it comes from.
Adarael
I can give you an almost iron-clad guarantee that this is exactly the case. Japan's dialectic on western philosophy and cultural theory is almost universally informed by Germany and France, due to their prominence in world politics during the late Meiji and early Taisho eras. That's why most of the Japanese words for medical terms and western philosophical terms are rooted in German and French words, for instance. The same is also true in reverse, as well: a majority of academic publishing on Japanese cultural studies is in these languages. Not being able to sprechen deutsch or parler français, I have rammed my academic face into this wall more times than I care to recall.

So yes: I would be shocked if this was not the case.
Aaron
Does anybody know of any anime or manga that is based around Also Sprach Zarathustra or anything else by Nietzsche-esque?
Zak
QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 29 2008, 02:04 PM) *
Does anybody know of any anime or manga that is based around Also Sprach Zarathustra or anything else by Nietzsche-esque?


Oh man, I'd so love to see that.
---

While I agree that Hegel was/is really influential in philosophy (and politics, but usually in a twisted way) I would not go as far as claiming he was a direct inspiration for GitS. Then again, I never read the mangas.
The "problem" with these early universal philosophers is that you will always find references(acknowledged or not) to them in following works. One of the reason they are worth reading, brainpain by sentence structures included. wink.gif

Adarael
Xenosaga. Sort of. Inasmuch as Xenosaga makes any sort of sense.
(Don't get me wrong, I love Xenosaga, but it's a bit disjointed.)
WeaverMount
QUOTE (Zak @ Apr 29 2008, 04:48 PM) *
I would not go as far as claiming he was a direct inspiration for GitS.


Neither did I. I was just asking if made sense to say that Shirow was not thinking "Ghost" so much as "Giest". The only reason Hegel comes into the equation is that was the context that allowed me, a non-German speaker, to infer the definition of "Giest"
Zak
hehe. smile.gif Geist is one of those tricky words you can't properly translate because it carries so many meanings depending on how you use it.

As far as I am informed by using the german term in other languages it is marked which line of though is actually meant without referring to it everytime in footnotes. German works use special markings (capitals, italics, etc) when referring to philosophical keywords. Don't take this for granted, academic philosophy is not really a key proficency of mine nyahnyah.gif
Stahlseele
ah, yes, our glorious language spreads it's tentacles anywhere . . kinda like japanese anime . . with the Word Geist it is really not easy to find out if the writer means the philosophical part of you being you, your soul, your knowledge, your intellect . . or a spirit . . you really have to read and understand the whole context . . now imagine having to read a philosophical spooky story in German . .
Adarael
Geist and unheimlich are both totally awesome, difficult to translate German words. Especially given that "uncanny" - which is what unheimlich is translated as, does not have an opposite, despite the word structure implying that 'canny' would be the opposite.
Stahlseele
heimlich is the opposite of unheimlich, but it would translate to sneaky in english more or less . . and unheimlich would translate into scary in most cases concerning ghosts *g*
MarCazm
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 29 2008, 11:39 PM) *
heimlich is the opposite of unheimlich, but it would translate to sneaky in english more or less . . and unheimlich would translate into scary in most cases concerning ghosts *g*


Sorry to bother but heimlich isn't the opposite of unheimlich. They're just similar words and i really don't think they're connected. Never heard of such in all these years.

Heimlich indeed is the word for stealthy or covertly. Unheimleich means scary or weird.

You can also use unheimlich to describe something which is really big for example. That's f...ing (unheimlich) big or good. Thats more common language.

To get more to the point of GitS:

If it should mean the philosophical or theological meaning the better german word would be Seele, which means soul.

Although Geist also can mean soul but in a more physical way. Like it's to measure.

Priest are also called Geistliche in german.

So it's very hard to consider which word really fits better or which meaning the author really wanted to figure.
Stahlseele
yeah, most of the time unheimlich is used like fucking as an adjective *g*
but technically speaking one could translate unheimlich with openly because heimlich translates as sneaky . .
he's not sneaky evil, he is openly evil . .
er ist nicht heimlich böse, er ist unheimlich böse . .
Shiloh
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 30 2008, 12:43 AM) *
yeah, most of the time unheimlich is used like fucking as an adjective *g*
but technically speaking one could translate unheimlich with openly because heimlich translates as sneaky . .
he's not sneaky evil, he is openly evil . .
er ist nicht heimlich böse, er ist unheimlich böse . .


I've always read "Unheimlich" as "unholy" in the sense of disturbing. It's no more an exact translation than "scary", but carries some of the same connotations. Is that fair?
Stahlseele
in translations most things are fair game . . it's the meaning in context that is important, not the perfect word to word translation . . but unholy? that would be unheilig in germany . .
like i said, unheimlich most of the time is used like fucking . . this is fucking big . . das ist unheimlich groß . .
Grinder
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 30 2008, 11:08 AM) *
I've always read "Unheimlich" as "unholy" in the sense of disturbing. It's no more an exact translation than "scary", but carries some of the same connotations. Is that fair?


No, unholy would be un-heilig or nicht heilig, while scary is a better translation for unheimlich.
MYST1C
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Apr 29 2008, 09:40 PM) *
"Oh, given German interests in cyber-punk, and the level of German-Japanese cross pollinated thinking this is where Shirow was going with that".

Good place to ask the question:
Did Shirow himself actually coin the title Ghost in the Shell? I've always seen this as merely the somewhat content-related export name of the manga/anime as the original Japanese title of the series AFAIK translates as "Mobile Armored Riot Police" or somesuch (which is hardly philosophical)...
MaxHunter
I like the broader meaning of the word Geist, much richer and somewhat different than the English word.

However, I do not think Shirow was thinking on Hegelian terms when he created the series (I am not even sure the where the translation comes from, as Myst1c pointed out already) In Hegel's philosophical framework -and please note this is an extreme oversimplification- "Geist" could also mean "reason", "essence", "freedom", particularly if we think of references to the zeitgeist "the spirit of the time". I do not see much specific reference to Hegel's philosophy in GITs, at least not more than the influence most contemporary philosophical traditions have of Hegel and Kant. There are, yes, many more explicit philosophical influences -and references- in Gits, mainly french postmodern philosophers like Derrida, plus concepts from stucturalism and social theory.

And I love the series.

Cheers

Max
nezumi
QUOTE (MarCazm @ Apr 29 2008, 06:14 PM) *
Heimlich indeed is the word for stealthy or covertly.


I know it doesn't translate over, but I don't think I'm going to think of the Heimlich maneuver the same way again.
Stahlseele
i was wondering if someone was going to make that joke . . i still don't understand why the frag it's called the heimlich-maneuver anyway . .
DubioserKerl
The Heimlich Maneuver is called "Heimlich" because a guy named "Henry J. Heimlich" invented it, not because it acually is an "unheimliches Maneuver".

And for the "heimlich" - "unheimlich" discussion: "unheimlich" is a synthesis of "un-" and "heimlich". The "un-" is a reversing prefix. In this case, the "heimlich" is not to be translated with "sneaky", it is meant in an old-fashioned manner (no one today uses it like this): "heim-e-lich" (the "e" is just a filler character and was discarded in the history of this word) means "like home". so, something spooky is "unheimlich", making you feel uncomfortable, and not to feel like you are in your safe home.

I don't know why the word "heimlich" made it to the meaning of "sneaky", but that's how it is.

DK, native German speaker

Edit: Added information after being corrected by Mr. Stahlseele
Adarael
I just realized that some of this confusion is due to the fact that, not knowing German, I cannot spell. I wrote unheimlich, whereas the word that I was referring to is unheimliche, as in Das Unheimliche by Freud. Stupid dropped 'e'.

And yes, DK, I know the feeling. I often wonder why "infamous" in English is used to mean the same as "famous", only with negative connotations. One would expect it to mean non-famous. I usually just blame English's oddities on the fact that it's cobbled together out of pieces of everything else.
DubioserKerl
well, infamous is at least an opposite of famous, while inflammable = flammable. THAT is confusing.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (DubioserKerl @ Apr 30 2008, 05:21 PM) *
The Heimlich Maneuver is called "Heimlich" because a guy named "Henry J. Heimlich" invented it, not because it acually is an "unheimliches Maneuver".

And for the "heimlich" - "unheimlich" discussion: "unheimlich" is a synthesis of "un-" and "heimlich". The "un-" is a reversing prefix. In this case, the "heimlich" is not to be translated with "sneaky", it is meant in an old-fashioned manner (no one today uses it like this): "heim-lich" means "like home". so, something spooky is "unheimlich", making you feel uncomfortable, and not to feel like you are in your safe home.

I don't know why the word "heimlich" made it to the meaning of "sneaky", but that's how it is.

DK, native German speaker

no no no no no . . heimlich=sneaky, heimelich=homely/like home . . there's just one e in there and nobody uses THIS word as of today . .
how it went from homely to sneaky is easyly explained . . things that stay at home are mostly kept secret so the transition from secret to sneaky is easy enough. .
and i am native german speaker too . . as people will probably have realized by my sub par english by now *g*
DubioserKerl
Okay okay, i forgot about the middle "e" in heimelich ^^
But, it is still composed of "Heim" and "-lich" wink.gif
Stahlseele
yeah, but that's the fun with semantics and words . . change a little tiny detail and it's a much different meaning . .
"i had to help my uncle, jack, off a horse"
"i had to help my uncle, jack off a horse"
Zak
Actually the 'e' is not needed at all. heimlich carries the meaning of heimelig (cozy/homelike), but as you stated it is not used in that context anymore.

But how did we get to this from Hegel's Geist? biggrin.gif And I just got myself to read the stuff again. What has Dumpshock done to me? wobble.gif
Eurotroll
The title "Ghost in the Shell" is really a nod towards the derogatory term "ghost in the machine" used to describe the Cartesian Mind-Body dualism. As such it goes back to the late 1940s, having been coined by the british philosopher Gilbert Ryle. So, whoever did the translation did mean to allude to established philosophical concepts and/or problems. (And no-one should be surprised that philosophy belongs to the humanities, which in German are Geisteswissenschaften. wink.gif )

The Japanese name, 攻殻機動隊 (KÅ?kaku KidÅ?tai, "Shell Assault Mobile Riot Police") does already hint at the Shell bit, however: æ®» is the term for "shell; pod; sheath; (discarded) skin".
WeaverMount
QUOTE (Eurotroll @ Apr 30 2008, 05:43 PM) *
The title "Ghost in the Shell" is really a nod towards the derogatory term "ghost in the machine" used to describe the Cartesian Mind-Body dualism. As such it goes back to the late 1940s, having been coined by the british philosopher Gilbert Ryle. So, whoever did the translation did mean to allude to established philosophical concepts and/or problems. (And no-one should be surprised that philosophy belongs to the humanities, which in German are Geisteswissenschaften. wink.gif )

The Japanese name, 攻殻機動隊 (KÅ?kaku KidÅ?tai, "Shell Assault Mobile Riot Police") does already hint at the Shell bit, however: æ®» is the term for "shell; pod; sheath; (discarded) skin".



solid, thanks
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Apr 29 2008, 02:40 PM) *
Ok so I had a philosophy professor talking about how the German word "Geist" is very close the English word ghost, especially when take off in the spirit/soul/mind direction rather than the specter/haunt direction. So as he is talking about Hegel's "Phänomenologie des Geistes" I'm thinking "Oh, given German interests in cyber-punk, and the level of German-Japanese cross pollinated thinking this is where Shirow was going with that".

Just FYI, Masamune Shirow wrote 攻殻機動隊, or, roughly, "Assault Armored Riot Police". It was the first movie that introduced the latter name.

Edit: way to read the whole topic before replying. I don't buy the 殻/"shell" connection, though—at most it may have been an inspiration for whoever (probably Mamoru Oshii, seems more his style) wrote the movie title. 'Course, I could be wrong—it's certainly not like that sort of question wasn't considered in the manga, but it doesn't seem as, well, philosophical.

YMMV, it's been years since I read the manga (hey, maybe they've got a copy in my lab—I think you just killed my productivity for the rest of the day).

~J
Adarael
It's still a *fun* read, but I've found that the intervening years of cyber-theory and subsequent books have made it seem somehow diminished in terms of authority with regards to the franchise, and importance to the theory of all that kind of business.

More likely, it's that my perspective has changed, and SAC/Innocence do such a good job of building on the base the manga provided that it now seems almost overshadowed.
Triggerz
French and German philosophy?!? And debates about the exact meaning of German and Japanese words?!? I love Dumpshock!!! I really do need to learn German and Japanese though. I feel so uncivilized without them. nyahnyah.gif In time, I guess...
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Triggerz @ May 2 2008, 01:00 AM) *
I really do need to learn German and Japanese though. I feel so uncivilized without them. nyahnyah.gif In time, I guess...

There is no "in time". Make a language your life, and do it now (ok, you can take a week or two to get your affairs in order wink.gif I mean, acquire language-appropriate materials).

I recommend this site; the focus is on Japanese, but the general idea applies to any language. I think the author's views are perhaps a little too strongly put, but also that he (and the English-learners he took many of his techniques from) is on to something. And yeah, he comes off as a bit of an ass at the start of that about page, don't let it stop you.

~J
Stahlseele
compared to german, japanese is bloody impossible . . especially the read/write part will suck up huge ammounts of karma <.< . .
i tried to lern it once or twice . . i lasted about a month both times and then i said fuck it, the ability to insult people is enough <.<
Adarael
My experience is completely the opposite. I can speak a minor amount of spanish, because you can't grow up in California without learning some, and trying to grasp German is like smashing my face into a wall. I can't pronounce it right and the structures slip past me. Japanese, however, is probably the single most logical and easy-to-learn language I've ever seen. Kanji takes rote memorization, yes, but I'd rather memorize kanji than rules - and then a bunch of exceptions to those rules.*

*German is not very guilty of this. English is VERY guilty.
MarCazm
German is a more difficult language than english. The most diffcult languages i met are the cyrilic langauges. The grammar rules of them are topping the germans a lot.
I also think japanese is quite easy to learn to understand or speak. The kanjis, well thats just only the memorizing skill. biggrin.gif
Triggerz
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 2 2008, 03:46 AM) *
There is no "in time". Make a language your life, and do it now (ok, you can take a week or two to get your affairs in order wink.gif I mean, acquire language-appropriate materials).

I recommend this site; the focus is on Japanese, but the general idea applies to any language. I think the author's views are perhaps a little too strongly put, but also that he (and the English-learners he took many of his techniques from) is on to something. And yeah, he comes off as a bit of an ass at the start of that about page, don't let it stop you.

~J


haha I might need some motivational flogging every now and then. The site seems pretty good though. [EDIT: Thanks for the link!] It's a simple idea, but it's totally true. Exposure is the way to learn. I already know a hundred Japanese words or so - maybe more? -, simply because I've watch so much anime. I've been lazy though. I should be speaking Japanese fluently by now.

A quick note on ease of learning. For me, Japanese will be immensely easier than German to learn. As a native speaker of French, Japanese pronunciation is very easy because it doesn't really include any sounds that don't exist in French. English, German or Spanish are much harder in that regard. Plus, when a native French speaker reads transliterated Japanese, he or she gets the pronunciation right very easily because you just have to pronounce it the way you would if it was French. English is a hell of a lot harder. For example, I have pronounced "sword" "sWord" for years before being told the 'w' was silent. wobble.gif

I guess I should start with Japanese because it's likely to be the easiest language for me. It should be easier to keep myself motivated. Eventually, I'd like to work on my Spanish again, and then learn some Korean and Mandarin. nyahnyah.gif But I guess one language will be enough for now.
WeaverMount
>because you can't grow up in California without learning some

I wish that was actually true. I'm constantly dumbfounded by the Californians I bump into that can't speak a lick of Spanish
DubioserKerl
Hey - you guys keep mentioning difficult grammar rules in the German language. For me, a native speaker, there are no problems with those. I am curious: What do you think are the most difficult grammar rules in the German language?
WeaverMount
In English there is joke about a 2 students in the class of a long winded boring professor. The first student whispers "hey I'm going to take off" the second one says "ehhh... I think I'll stick around for the verb"
hobgoblin
hmm, i think ill attest to the learning by doing "school". thats how i picked up most of my english, but reading computer magazines and rpg books wink.gif

oh, and web forums like this one for years and years...

still, i fear that im much worse at spoken then written...
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