 Astral Projection, How do YOU use it effectively? |
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 Dec 12 2003, 06:55 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 19-October 03 Member No.: 5,738  |
I'm still a noob at Shadowrun having been on only a dozen or so missions. My question regards Astral Projection. I simply can't imagine a situation in which Projecting would EVER be a good idea...
1) Your body is vulnerable. You have to leave it somewhere safe. There aren't too many safe places during a mission. 2) There is no way to sneak. Anyone who is perceiving Astraly can see you and throw spells at you. 3) Throwing spells of your own risks physical drain. 3) Wounds to your spirit also wound your body. So why do it? Can you guys tell me about a mission that you were on in which you made effective use of Projection? -Z |
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Dec 12 2003, 07:04 PM
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#2
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It's best for legwork before a run. It's not that common that someone is astrally perceiving, so you can get a good look at low-security areas, and Stealth works on the Astral, I believe.
~J |
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Dec 12 2003, 07:10 PM
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#3
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Well, you're the first person to argue astral projection is *under* powered...
Let's see... you move nearly at the speed of light (What's that you say? A meeting in Paris? Be there in 12 seconds!) You move thru matter (i.e. Go take a look if there's anyone in the rooms above/below/adjacent to us) You are invisible to 99% of the world's population with no chance to resist Yes obviously it has it's risks, but so does, well, shadowrunning. Saying there is no situation where it is useful is only forgivable because you are a n00b. |
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Dec 12 2003, 07:11 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 430 Joined: 28-May 02 Member No.: 2,784 |
Astral stealth would use the same principles and face similar problems to stealthing against thermal sensors -- in the human-visible spectrum, it's easy to avoid glowing -- just turn off your flashlight. In thermal and astral, you glow all the time. Where ambient darkness is a benefit against normal human vision, it's actually a detriment for hiding from thermal or astral vision. You do better hiding in an area full of life. The best "cover" for an astrally projecting magician would be a dense cloud of small insects (mosquitos, flies, whatever) in physical space. Their life-force would create lots of color in astral for blending purposes. Otherwise, background count works -- although it better have a good reason to avoid arousing suspicion, just like smoke in physical space.
--K |
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Dec 12 2003, 07:29 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 19-October 03 Member No.: 5,738 |
Let's assume that I'm a Mage or Shaman who has been hired to guard something important. Of COURSE I'm going to be astrally perceiving! Why else would they hire me if not to provide advance warning about snooping spirits or illusion spells? So yeah, if you need to do some recon on the local 7 eleven, feel free to project there. Judging from what I've read about the Astral in the SR3 book, I don't see how you could hide from an Astrally perceiving person, unless you're hiding in a crowd of other spirits or living things (thanks krishcane). But passing through an area where people aren't supposed to be... there's no way to sneak. You look like a big glowing spirit floating through a place you're not supposed to be in... Being able to float through matter and stick your head into the next room doesn't help you if you get it blown off by the Astrally Perceiving guard. My point is that Projection is only useful if they have no mages guarding the place... And what places of interest don't? -Z |
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Dec 12 2003, 07:34 PM
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
A lot of places. Not places of major interest, like a high-security compound, but most places that a starting runner will be hitting will not have a full-time mage watching everything all the time. Some won't even have a mage.
Edit: and fairly few will have dedicated mage guards. ~J |
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Dec 12 2003, 07:40 PM
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#7
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Lots. Mages are too expensive to have standing around waiting for an astral threath to come by. They are usually on-call only. And many, many places will not have adequate astral security. And any on-guard security mage probably won't be perceiving 24/7. It's annoying to do. Granted you have other creatures such as spirits, but that's another thread.
How bout you're in a facility, and the objective is going to be guarded astrally. Ok, no projection into there. How bout ALL the other rooms until then? Probly not. And if, during the entire run, you only use it once to peek around that corner and see those 2 guards standing around that you would have run into otherwise, it'll have been worth it, considering it's "free" anyway. |
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Dec 12 2003, 07:40 PM
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#8
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Also remember that you can't see on the astral through solid matter and that if you're not looking in its direction in the first place, you can't see it... Thus the amount of warning a mage who spotted you would be able to give would be minimal at best.
Steatlh on the astral plane seems to me like it would require the use of cover much the way regular stealth does. Learn masking on your first initiation and you're pretty well able to stealth. |
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Dec 12 2003, 07:58 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 19-October 03 Member No.: 5,738 |
My GM is going to hate me.
Everytime I post some complaint or imbalance here on this forum, I get a response that basically says, "Your GM is trying to kill you." :) I guess it's because of the campaign that we're in, but it seems everywhere we go there's a Full mage with 6 elementals guarding it... So that naturally gives rise to my assertion that Projection is useless... I guess if we were in a campaign that involved much smaller entities than the ones we've been up against, then projection would be much more usefull. Thanks guys. -Z |
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Dec 12 2003, 08:02 PM
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#10
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Can definitely use Stealth on the Astral. :P
Clairvoyance is cooler, you can see through Astral Barriers (Increase TN by Force) and you're not away from Body (though you have a much more limited range) ;) Sphynx |
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Dec 12 2003, 08:13 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 8-December 03 Member No.: 5,887 |
Sounds like your GM is very strict against use of astral projection during runs. My advice is to be aspected magican if you cant find use for astral projection in your games. Im a GM and my take on it is that magical security is expensive and not that common, but I still wont allow players to take a nap and wake up having solved the entire plot vi sa vi astral projection :S :) . But think about it another way. Shadowrun magicans have unlimited use of some awsome cool powers (like astral projection) that only the most powerful characters could have in other games. The reason thats possible is the technological level and the extreme difficulties a shadowrunner faces. SO your GM wont allow you to go anywhere you want when you leave your body behind? Its still an awful cool power to have, which you can use with creative freedom within boundaries.
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Dec 12 2003, 08:23 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
Don't forget the sheer speed, you move at will, to any location you basically wish...knida like being in the matrix. So in that respect it is kinda useful. And it really isn't hard to keep track of your body, you can go back at will, too. I really think the odds of an incorprial beast taking over your body in the 3 seconds you are gone from it, are HORRIBLY low.
It is VERY useful for scouting a lot of the time, and how often really is someone astrally perceiving going to notice you while you are moving at the speed of thought...Maybe a quick blur or something...but unless you are staking out, or moving slow... |
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Dec 12 2003, 08:39 PM
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#13
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
If you're worried about shedeim and other possessors, only project from inside a ward. Then, at least, you're more likely to have warning about it.
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Dec 13 2003, 01:10 AM
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#14
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
That's why god gave us teammates and spirits/elementals. To blow the crap out of things trying to cart off our meatbody.
Untrue. There are several ways to sneak. #1: Speed advantage. You're too fast for most people to get any kind of look at. You can kick around at a speed of AT MINUMUM, 1000 KM/hr. That's freakin' fast. #2: Masking/Astral Mask spell. Actively mask (some GMs allow this, some don't) to look like a spirit, people probably won't just jump you. Especially if you act like you're doing a security elemental's job. If your GM doesn't allow a masking use like that, make an astral-only mask spell. Cheap on the drain, it is.
Yeah, but if you can see them and they can see you, and they're tossing spells, you're probably a boatload faster on initiative than them, and can punch them in the face and kill them. And you don't risk drain when punching someone in the face.
And wounds from a gun wound your body, too. So? Get a heal spell.
Every single mission I've ever been on, I've used Astral Projection. I've assassinated people by having a meat-runner trick them into perceiving so that I could punch them in the dome (that's physical, not stun!). I've tracked people to their home. I've demolished, appropriated, attuned, re-wired every kind of barrier known to man. I've taken out astral security and wrested control of it. I've convinced lone star not to attack me, but to attack the man I was chasing (to be fair, he was a horribly nasty toxic shaman that didn't know how to mask). In short, Astral Projection is one of the best tools at my disposal. Period. |
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Dec 13 2003, 03:09 AM
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#15
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Ah, you're the guy with the 6 elem bodyguards, neh? Yeah, your GM is over doing it on the magic thing. It's his style, though, so just point out to him that if he plans on using seriously hardcore magic defenses, he's going to have to give you the means to defeat them. There is a fine line between "challenging" and "too hard".
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Dec 13 2003, 03:29 AM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
When I'm playing rather than GMing, I make a point of slapping any player that makes a semi-mundo unable to astrally project. Astral projection is SO useful. A non-corporeal, hypersonic recon system that can zip through walls?
That's what the rest of the team is for, dude. You stick the mage someplace relatively bullet resistant (the rigger's armored "car" he calls "Lil Abrams", a handy dumpster, a hotel room), and the rest of the team makes sure nobody robs it while the mage is projecting. (Now, if a magic marker mustache appears on the mage or the mage's body is posed in compromising positions and photographed by the team, that's different. Wait, how'd that run go? "As bonus points, we still have the blackmail photos of the Johnson and the albino dwarf mage PC partially covered in duct tape sleeping together in the coffin hotel. The poor dears, they were both so tired." I'm trying to remember why we duct taped the projecting mage, but it was funny, I remember that.) Or, heck, in the middle of a run, the mage drops down in a secluded closet while the rest of the team covers the hallway, and the mage does some quick recon.
First, there's plenty of ways to sneak. You can't astrally perceive through opaque walls. You don't make noise. You're a ghost. Even if someone is astrally perceiving, you just make sure you're behind a opaque object - walls in a building, shrubbery, etc. Astrally projecting people move with the speed of thought, so they could stay behind an astral perceiver no matter how quick he looks around. Geez, people who can astrally perceive are not EVERYWHERE. They're rare. You'll encounter a handful on high security corporate grounds.
Astral projection's strengths doesn't involve spell casting.
How is that different than NOT astrally projecting? When you're in your physical body, when you get wounded, it also wounds your body.
Most of'em, except for the few involving corporate compounds dripping with massive magical security. Astral projection's value for scouting target facilities, tailing people, acting as an untraceable messenger...I use it all the time. |
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Dec 13 2003, 05:10 AM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Personally, my definition of tight magical site security is wards and bound elementals/watchers. Having active mages hanging around is unrealistic (though expect them to respond quickly if the get a watcher or you breach a ward the easy way). So, in general, what you're facing should be relatively well defined and pretty narrow in scope (wards which guard specific areas, spirits who have very specific orders, etc.).
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Dec 13 2003, 05:30 AM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
Its tough but its really useful, so it gets used a lot in my experience. I think the hardest part is that mages know whenever there wards are breached(barring something like masking), and know when one of their spirits go by-bye. So you really just can't be seen by anything, if you don't want to set off any alarms.
My attitude has always been that until I can mask if a wards up or I see heavy astral security, I just go back to my body and say I can't recon without letting them know. Usually my team will say, ok then don't recon. Once I can mask I'll at least make an attempt on wards, but astral security is still usually a no-no. One thing I've thought of but am not sure if its possible is with masking and the disguise skill,(don't remember the book it came out in) can you mask a astral aura so it looked like the on site mage or other accepted astral presence so spirits ignored it. Requires some recon on the site so you could assense the mages but it could work out fairly well if its a possible tactic. |
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Dec 13 2003, 10:00 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 344 Joined: 28-July 03 Member No.: 5,133 |
There are a thousand and one good reasons to project during a run or in general. I'll leave the thousand to the teeming masses and just give you the one.
Astrally projecting vs dual natured. Being dual is incredibly dangerous if there's an astrally projecting mage nearby. He's MUCH faster than you (or just as fast if you're an reflexed adept) and he can fly. Get a stunbolt, it's highly nasty to a dual creature and the drain is nice and friendly. Kong |
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Dec 13 2003, 11:25 AM
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#20
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
One of the many reasons my Ghoul is going to invest in some smoke bombs, some hidey holes, and a hell of a lot of the Stealth skill. Well, that and he's a spy, I guess. |
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