Question: SIN Format Options

[Muspellsheimr]

Is there a cannon example of how a SIN is formatted? For example, the US Social Security Number is formated as xxx-xx-xxxx (numerals only).

The wiki states that "The actual numbers that compose a SIN are typically generated by various pieces of personal information, such as birthdate, state of origin and initials", however does not provide an example.

[ornot]

I'm not aware of any canon examples of SINs, but it could really be anything from a string of numbers to a 2D barcode.

I don't think it's worth worrying about such minutiae for the most part.

[Cain]

The only example of a SIN I can think of is in Dunkelzahn's will. That one is a 12-digit alphanumeric sequence. I'm uncertain if the positions of letters and numbers have any meaning, like the numbers in a SSN do.

[Heath Robinson]

The only example of a SIN I can think of is in Dunkelzahn's will. That one is a 12-digit alphanumeric sequence. I'm uncertain if the positions of letters and numbers have any meaning, like the numbers in a SSN do.

It's probably a unique hash of the basic information that the issuer has on their database. Ergo, no human understandable significance but each character of the resulting sequence is the result of a number of pieces of information about the person.

[WeaverMount]

it's broken up in 3 alpha numeric blocks of 4

edit:
From Dunkelzahn's Will

To the bearer of SIN 5T2G-8U6V-PK02: present yourself to the Draco Foundation on any Wednesday between 10:00 and 10:15 a.m., and the Foundation will grant you one wish. This offer stands good for one year from the day of my death. I believe the saying is, be careful what you wish for�you may well get it.

[Fortune]

The SIN from Dunkenstein's Will ...

5T2G-8U6V-PK02

Edit: Have I ever mentioned that WeaverMount sucks? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[WeaverMount]

beat yah! PHPhphphphhpphphp

*ducks*

[Heath Robinson]

I would think that the divison into blocks is to aid memorisation and scrutiny before wireless came along and SINs could get exchanged automatically.

[MJBurrage]

You are correct on long numbers being broken up into blocks of usually four (or less) digits for memorization purposes. It is much harder to remember one 8-digit number than two 4-digit numbers.

Also such sequences would (or at least should) never use the letters I, O, and S since they are too easy to confuse with 1, 0, and 5 when hand written.

I also cannot imagine an updated ID number system not using a check digit.

So SINs are 12-alpha-numeric digits total, if 11 are individually assignable, (33 possible values each) and the last is a check sum, than there are over 50 quadrillion possible valid SINs.

[Heath Robinson]

You are correct on long numbers being broken up into blocks of usually four (or less) digits for memorization purposes. It is much harder to remember one 8-digit number than two 4-digit numbers.

Also such sequences would (or at least should) never use the letters I, O, and S since they are too easy to confuse with 1, 0, and 5 when hand written.

I also cannot imagine an updated ID number system not using a check digit.

So SINs are 12-alpha-numeric digits total, if 11 are individually assignable, (33 possible values each) and the last is a check sum, than there are over 50 quadrillion possible valid SINs.

Which, of course, means that the space is hard to saturate and there are going to be fewer collisions from the hash. Both of these outcomes are desirable for SINs.

[Aaron]

EDIT: Never mind, somebody already did the math.

[coolgrafix]

No examples of SINs are given in the RAW, but they do state (in multiple editions) that the SIN is (duh) a number. Meaning digits 0 - 9 presumably (base 10 has to be assumed).

Given that the Big D's will included the above-mentioned SIN, we have to conclude one of the following:

a) the numbers aren't limited to base 10 (groan, what a stretch, since there's a V... this would allow a unique SIN for every particle in the universe <grin>)
b) RAW didn't really mean number when it said number
c) the authors of Portfolio of a Dragon just pulled something out of thin air, regardless of RAW
d) different corps/countries do it different ways, so all bets are off on the format, depending on corp/country
e) the SIN in the will isn't a real SIN, but instead a code/clue/mystery of some sort (I mean, really... if it were a real SIN, every reporter in the world would have tracked the poor bastard down and splattered his mug all over the media.)

p.s. I seem to remember (but can not locate) some older game material indicating that SINs were 16-digit numbers. It's not in NAGRL, 3rd, or 4th editions. Don't have any materials older than that handy.

[ornot]

I understand the CC has a standardised format for SINs, ergo they would all do them the same way.

I suspect that the term 'number' is used for convenience, and a really means a code. As an example; my driver's license 'number' is made up of alphanumeric characters, at least some of which correspond to my name. My car has a 'number' plate, but 4 out of 7 characters are letters.

I imagine the authors did pull the number out of thin air. It's unimportant what the exact format of a fictional ID code really is. The point is that number is tied to a portfolio of personal data, which in the case of a fake SIN is either erroneous or stolen.

[coolgrafix]

Ornot, you've mentioned twice that you don't see the important of worrying about such details. Obviously someone else does. =)

I, for one, often create play aids like badges, found clues, etc., and so the issue has come up before. =)

[Muspellsheimr]

I imagine the authors did pull the number out of thin air. It's unimportant what the exact format of a fictional ID code really is.

The SIN format is important for how I am writing one of my character's backstories, and I wanted to see if there was any cannon examples before creating something on my own.

So the general consensus is a SIN is a 12 character alpha-numeric sequence divided into subgroups of 4. Thank you.

[JeffSz]

i also note the SIN is in the form

XyXy-XyXy-yyXX

where X is a number and y is a letter
similar to Canadian postal codes, ex. N7Y 2J4

[ornot]

The SIN format is important for how I am writing one of my character's backstories, and I wanted to see if there was any cannon examples before creating something on my own.

So the general consensus is a SIN is a 12 character alpha-numeric sequence divided into subgroups of 4. Thank you.

Fair enough. If it was me I'd just decide on a format, and tell the other players and the GM that it was a SIN. Unless they have a particular idea they'd probably just say "yeah, OK". Still, the mighty DS collective has come to a consensus over SINs, and it's not been refuted by the devs, so might as well go with that.

Sorry if anyone was offended by my apathy somehow twinned with a determination to post about it. I guess I just had too much time on my hands at the time.

[Aaron]

i also note the SIN is in the form

XyXy-XyXy-yyXX

where X is a number and y is a letter
similar to Canadian postal codes, ex. N7Y 2J4

Wouldn't that reduce the number of possible combinations by close to 5,000,000,000,000,000,000? That's just off the top of my head. The actual number is more like 4,738,072,422,540,000,000.

[WeaverMount]

OP, just out of sheer curiosity I have to know how SIN format matters to your character?

[weblife]

can·on 1 (knn)
n.
1. An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council.
2. A secular law, rule, or code of law.
3.
a. An established principle: the canons of polite society.
b. A basis for judgment; a standard or criterion.
4. The books of the Bible officially accepted as Holy Scripture.
5.
a. A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field: "the durable canon of American short fiction" William Styron.
b. The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon.
6. Canon The part of the Mass beginning after the Preface and Sanctus and ending just before the Lord's Prayer.
7. The calendar of saints accepted by the Roman Catholic Church.
8. Music A composition or passage in which a melody is imitated by one or more voices at fixed intervals of pitch and time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
can·non (knn)
n. pl. cannon or can·nons
1. A large mounted weapon that fires heavy projectiles. Cannon include guns, howitzers, and mortars.
2. The loop at the top of a bell by which it is hung.
3. A round bit for a horse.
4. Zoology The section of the lower leg in some hoofed mammals between the hock or knee and the fetlock, containing the cannon bone.
5. Chiefly British A carom made in billiards.
v. can·noned, can·non·ing, can·nons

My apologies, but I see Cannon used in place of Canon way too often on these boards. A quick reminder might bring these instances down and increase chances of the english language not degenerating faster than it has to.

[bishop186]

Wouldn't that reduce the number of possible combinations by close to 5,000,000,000,000,000,000? That's just off the top of my head. The actual number is more like 4,738,072,422,540,000,000.

That's still 308,915,776,000,000 SINs, if I did my math correctly, which is no small potatoes.

[Aaron]

That's still 308,915,776,000,000 SINs, if I did my math correctly, which is no small potatoes.

Granted, but why limit oneself? Unless there's a really good reason for the format, that's just bad engineering.

[Aaron]

OP, just out of sheer curiosity I have to know how SIN format matters to your character?

I, too, am curious.

[Aaron]

Now that I think about it, in the 2070s, there are a large number of different entities that assign SINs. There's no real reason to believe that they all have a uniform format. Heck, these entities don't even follow a uniform alphabet, never mind SIN format.

[ornot]

I'm pretty sure that it says somewhere that the Corporate Court is responsible for maintaining standards for SINs. I took that to mean that there was a standardised form for a SIN, although the information attached to each SIN and held by the regional government or corp would not be freely available.

Of course, the CC could just stipulate what identifying information a SIN comprises, rather than the string or whatever that Joe SINner shows people and that points to his identifying information.