Is there a cannon example of how a SIN is formatted? For example, the US Social Security Number is formated as xxx-xx-xxxx (numerals only).

The wiki states that "The actual numbers that compose a SIN are typically generated by various pieces of personal information, such as birthdate, state of origin and initials", however does not provide an example.

I'm not aware of any canon examples of SINs, but it could really be anything from a string of numbers to a 2D barcode.

I don't think it's worth worrying about such minutiae for the most part.

The only example of a SIN I can think of is in Dunkelzahn's will. That one is a 12-digit alphanumeric sequence. I'm uncertain if the positions of letters and numbers have any meaning, like the numbers in a SSN do.

It's probably a unique hash of the basic information that the issuer has on their database. Ergo, no human understandable significance but each character of the resulting sequence is the result of a number of pieces of information about the person.

it's broken up in 3 alpha numeric blocks of 4

edit:
From Dunkelzahn's Will

The SIN from Dunkenstein's Will ...

5T2G-8U6V-PK02

Edit: Have I ever mentioned that WeaverMount sucks?

beat yah! PHPhphphphhpphphp

*ducks*

I would think that the divison into blocks is to aid memorisation and scrutiny before wireless came along and SINs could get exchanged automatically.

You are correct on long numbers being broken up into blocks of usually four (or less) digits for memorization purposes. It is much harder to remember one 8-digit number than two 4-digit numbers.

Also such sequences would (or at least should) never use the letters I, O, and S since they are too easy to confuse with 1, 0, and 5 when hand written.

I also cannot imagine an updated ID number system not using a check digit.

So SINs are 12-alpha-numeric digits total, if 11 are individually assignable, (33 possible values each) and the last is a check sum, than there are over 50 quadrillion possible valid SINs.

Which, of course, means that the space is hard to saturate and there are going to be fewer collisions from the hash. Both of these outcomes are desirable for SINs.

EDIT: Never mind, somebody already did the math.

No examples of SINs are given in the RAW, but they do state (in multiple editions) that the SIN is (duh) a number. Meaning digits 0 - 9 presumably (base 10 has to be assumed).

Given that the Big D's will included the above-mentioned SIN, we have to conclude one of the following:

a) the numbers aren't limited to base 10 (groan, what a stretch, since there's a V... this would allow a unique SIN for every particle in the universe <grin>)
b) RAW didn't really mean number when it said number
c) the authors of Portfolio of a Dragon just pulled something out of thin air, regardless of RAW
d) different corps/countries do it different ways, so all bets are off on the format, depending on corp/country
e) the SIN in the will isn't a real SIN, but instead a code/clue/mystery of some sort (I mean, really... if it were a real SIN, every reporter in the world would have tracked the poor bastard down and splattered his mug all over the media.)

p.s. I seem to remember (but can not locate) some older game material indicating that SINs were 16-digit numbers. It's not in NAGRL, 3rd, or 4th editions. Don't have any materials older than that handy.

I understand the CC has a standardised format for SINs, ergo they would all do them the same way.

I suspect that the term 'number' is used for convenience, and a really means a code. As an example; my driver's license 'number' is made up of alphanumeric characters, at least some of which correspond to my name. My car has a 'number' plate, but 4 out of 7 characters are letters.

I imagine the authors did pull the number out of thin air. It's unimportant what the exact format of a fictional ID code really is. The point is that number is tied to a portfolio of personal data, which in the case of a fake SIN is either erroneous or stolen.

Ornot, you've mentioned twice that you don't see the important of worrying about such details. Obviously someone else does. =)

I, for one, often create play aids like badges, found clues, etc., and so the issue has come up before. =)

The SIN format is important for how I am writing one of my character's backstories, and I wanted to see if there was any cannon examples before creating something on my own.

So the general consensus is a SIN is a 12 character alpha-numeric sequence divided into subgroups of 4. Thank you.

i also note the SIN is in the form

XyXy-XyXy-yyXX

where X is a number and y is a letter
similar to Canadian postal codes, ex. N7Y 2J4

Fair enough. If it was me I'd just decide on a format, and tell the other players and the GM that it was a SIN. Unless they have a particular idea they'd probably just say "yeah, OK". Still, the mighty DS collective has come to a consensus over SINs, and it's not been refuted by the devs, so might as well go with that.

Sorry if anyone was offended by my apathy somehow twinned with a determination to post about it. I guess I just had too much time on my hands at the time.

Wouldn't that reduce the number of possible combinations by close to 5,000,000,000,000,000,000? That's just off the top of my head. The actual number is more like 4,738,072,422,540,000,000.

OP, just out of sheer curiosity I have to know how SIN format matters to your character?

can·on 1 (knn)
n.
1. An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council.
2. A secular law, rule, or code of law.
3.
a. An established principle: the canons of polite society.
b. A basis for judgment; a standard or criterion.
4. The books of the Bible officially accepted as Holy Scripture.
5.
a. A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field: "the durable canon of American short fiction" William Styron.
b. The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon.
6. Canon The part of the Mass beginning after the Preface and Sanctus and ending just before the Lord's Prayer.
7. The calendar of saints accepted by the Roman Catholic Church.
8. Music A composition or passage in which a melody is imitated by one or more voices at fixed intervals of pitch and time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
can·non (knn)
n. pl. cannon or can·nons
1. A large mounted weapon that fires heavy projectiles. Cannon include guns, howitzers, and mortars.
2. The loop at the top of a bell by which it is hung.
3. A round bit for a horse.
4. Zoology The section of the lower leg in some hoofed mammals between the hock or knee and the fetlock, containing the cannon bone.
5. Chiefly British A carom made in billiards.
v. can·noned, can·non·ing, can·nons

My apologies, but I see Cannon used in place of Canon way too often on these boards. A quick reminder might bring these instances down and increase chances of the english language not degenerating faster than it has to.

That's still 308,915,776,000,000 SINs, if I did my math correctly, which is no small potatoes.

Granted, but why limit oneself? Unless there's a really good reason for the format, that's just bad engineering.

I, too, am curious.

Now that I think about it, in the 2070s, there are a large number of different entities that assign SINs. There's no real reason to believe that they all have a uniform format. Heck, these entities don't even follow a uniform alphabet, never mind SIN format.

I'm pretty sure that it says somewhere that the Corporate Court is responsible for maintaining standards for SINs. I took that to mean that there was a standardised form for a SIN, although the information attached to each SIN and held by the regional government or corp would not be freely available.

Of course, the CC could just stipulate what identifying information a SIN comprises, rather than the string or whatever that Joe SINner shows people and that points to his identifying information.

True enough, and I would expect Corporate SINs to follow that logic, trying to squeeze as much data and use out of the SINs as possible. However, governments seem to be tied to doing things in the most wasteful ways possible, so I wouldn't put it past the UCAS to do something silly like that. Heck, I wouldn't put it past the UCAS to not only use that scheme but also have no rhyme or reason to the numbers aside from "this city gets this block of the SINs, this city gets that, the numbers are first-come first serve".

Though, I'd love to see a Rating 1 Fake SIN that was something silly like "FRAG-UCAS-CHMR"

Would the CC have any real jurisdiction over UCAS SINs, though? I mean, the UCAS could say "sure, cool, we might as well" but they might also say "Frag you, chummers, we're the UCAS and we do it the UCAS way!"

They could, just like the US Army could say tomorrow that they're switching to bullets that have pentagonal cross sections, and will no longer buy round bullets. Doesn't mean any manufacturer on the planet actually makes those, and seeing as the rest of the world will still be using round bullets, those manufacturers might not be inclined to switch.

In the case of "current SINs aren't the best way of doing thing"...
...By that logic, phone numbers should already be much longer then they currently are and we should already be using the IPv6 protocol for the internet [the current IPv4 protocol, that provides IP addresses to everything on the internet, is running out of addresses], for future-proofing.


In fact, a good example of how not to generate phone numbers is the mistake BT [the phone monopoly in the UK] made when allocating phone numbers a few years ago...
...They realised they were going to run out of numbers [businesses were getting fax machines and computers installed, so they went from needing a few numbers each to needing lots of numbers each], so changed the phone number prefix - adding numbers to the front, and grouping phone numbers.

Then they did it again, just a few year later - because they were going to run out of numbers again in the future !!


Any global numbering system has to have some standardisation, else it just won't work globally...
...See the current problems with ID cards, which need to be standard amongst all the countries that will use them.

However, they're unlikely to be exactly the same for everyone...
...Each will standardise the basics, then have extra stuff only relevant to them - you see this sort of thing anytime 2 companies have to deal with each other.

As to why there'd be such standardisation...
...If a company wants to deal with other companies, there'll be some level of compromise - because it's just not profitable to constantly re-invent things just to be using your own.

For example...
...Why is English the language most countries use for trade, and not Esperanto [which was designed to be a common language] or Spanish or Chinese [which has the world's largest number of native speakers, simply because it has the largest number or people] ??

Population-wise, it's not the most commonly spoken language...
...And often wonderfully obtuse and confusing...
...So why ??

Because it is in people's interest, and a compromise, to share a language...
...Local people who speak English do more trade, have the advantage when it came to bargaining [compared to non-English speakers] and can take that knowledge to apply it elsewhere...
...And a trader could learn the local language [getting much better deals, etc], but if the trader travels to 20 places, he'd have to learn 20 different languages.

There's a minor fallacy in that argument in that it leaves out other considerations. Phone numbers (in the US, at least) were deliberately limited to seven digits to limit the number of digits a human being needed to memorize. IP4 addresses were limited to thirty-two bits because the data transmission and memory were limited when the system was created in like 1981.

Technology in Shadowrun offers near-instantaneous speeds and nigh-infinite storage, so those factors are not an issue.

I don't know if this has been brought up already, but it should be pointed out:

Remember that this is a dystopian future. There are a number of big players (governments, corps, etc) in the world but none of them have the clear upper hand.

That should color the discussion of SINs. If everything were uniform and seamless across national and corporate borders, then the shadows shrink to a large degree.

However; if Renraku only stores biometric data A, B, and C with each SIN and doesn't share (at least on a deep level) their lists with UCAS (who stores data A, C, D, and E) who doesn't share their list with Aztechnology (who only allow outside searches of data point C) you can see how easy it would be to fool the system on a superficial level.

Another point: perhaps like credit cards the originator of the SIN (corp, govt, criminal etc) can be figured out in a trivial way, but that doesn't help you all that much.

Examples: if you are trying to pass through a NAN checkpoint with a Renraku SIN, it is harder for them to dig too deeply into the situation. If you have a Shiawase SIN they may be able to cross-check alot more info, based on treaties, etc. Maybe not, though. At a surface level, these SIN-checks when you haven't overtly done anything wrong are fairly harmless... just because the system is so de-centralized and inefficient.

If, however, you are arrested during a run while doing some very naughty things, they will pick your SIN apart to the Nth degree... it would probably be time consuming, expensive and annoying for the authorities to get warrants to cross-check against a corps database, etc; but eventually they'd get to the bottom of it.* Not only that, but they'd no doubt put any such suspect through a full workup (DNA, fingerprints, retinal scans, skeletal structure, height, weight, etc etc) and assign you a new, fully detailed, biometrically correct SIN so that you will never be "lost" (i.e. SINless) again.

Or, if you were caught by a corp, they could simply dump your body in the river and save alot of money.



*An interesting story line is when someone picks up a (mostly) deniable asset and starts digging into their SIN and the issuing parent company refuses the request for more information. Perhaps a method to legally protect (and eventually recover) valuable corporate assets, like strike team members, etc. I could see the corps "exchanging hostages" from time to time, or paying ransoms, negotiating releases, etc.

That number is so mind boggling large anyway that it cease to matter in the least how it was engineered. So, a few hundred million years from now, once we are spread across a few thousand galaxies and maybe as many dimensions they will have to begin recycling old numbers or come up with a different system. Nothing lasts forever.


Isshia