SR*3; IC: A time to die? Options

[Cantankerous]

I found this in an old file from back in the day, it brings up an interesting moral issue... in as much as we Shadowy types ever really concern ourselves with morality anyway, so I thought I'd post it and see what came came out of todays minds.

>>>>>[People, I've got a problem. Mario and the Jaegers are all three out of town, Clancy is in the stripe walled country club, again, and Snakehead and Friendly Pete hate Tik Tok with a blue passion because of the Suttler Run, so I thought I'd ask in here.

Tik Tok has managed to do what he's been trying to do for four years now...find the quick and easy way to LOADS of power. Blood magic. Yep, dumber than a door post and as per usual, convinced that he's right, that it's worth it.

But maybe this time he's, well, not right, but not so far wrong. Tik Tok is dying. It's a disease that strikes the central nervous system and according to both Abramalin, who may be the best Street Shamman/Street Doc around and the people at the Tacoma General Hospital he saw, it's only a matter of time, only a matter of when, not if. So he decided to go out like Roman Candle..and god knows we need him for this next run.

Now, for those of you who know a bit about blood magic, it's his own he'll be using, not that of some poor schlemeel off the streets and it'll be the ace in the hole for him to boot, but well, the chances are good that this WILL be his swan song. Yep, it's going to be that kind of job.

Also, wouldn't he have had to learn that somewhere kind of...rough?

Sooo, the real question is, where are we as responsible Runners morally obliged, if anywhere, to say, "no way man!" ? Where are the lines drawn? What is too much? Is there a place when we forget that we're all criminal scum anyway and say, "too far chummer"? What would you all do?]<<<<<


--Big Blue <15:20:33/04-10-48>

[Shiloh]

I found this in an old file from back in the day, it brings up an interesting moral issue... in as much as we Shadowy types ever really concern ourselves with morality anyway, so I thought I'd post it and see what came came out of todays minds.

>>>>>[People, I've got a problem. Mario and the Jaegers are all three out of town, Clancy is in the stripe walled country club, again, and Snakehead and Friendly Pete hate Tik Tok with a blue passion because of the Suttler Run, so I thought I'd ask in here.

Tik Tok has managed to do what he's been trying to do for four years now...find the quick and easy way to LOADS of power. Blood magic. Yep, dumber than a door post and as per usual, convinced that he's right, that it's worth it.

But maybe this time he's, well, not right, but not so far wrong. Tik Tok is dying. It's a disease that strikes the central nervous system and according to both Abramalin, who may be the best Street Shamman/Street Doc around and the people at the Tacoma General Hospital he saw, it's only a matter of time, only a matter of when, not if. So he decided to go out like Roman Candle..and god knows we need him for this next run.

Now, for those of you who know a bit about blood magic, it's his own he'll be using, not that of some poor schlemeel off the streets and it'll be the ace in the hole for him to boot, but well, the chances are good that this WILL be his swan song. Yep, it's going to be that kind of job.

Also, wouldn't he have had to learn that somewhere kind of...rough?

Sooo, the real question is, where are we as responsible Runners morally obliged, if anywhere, to say, "no way man!" ? Where are the lines drawn? What is too much? Is there a place when we forget that we're all criminal scum anyway and say, "too far chummer"? What would you all do?]<<<<<


--Big Blue <15:20:33/04-10-48>

Cap him, Blue. It's for his own good. Nothing good ever came out of Blood Magic. Nothing good for you, good for your chummers or good for the world. You might have been close, once, but he's already put a world of distance between you by starting out on that path, and how can you know he'll stop with his own sacrifice? What if "success" just needs "...a little nick, Omae, that's all... I'm close to fragged, or I'd tap myself..." that's how the Blood Path goes. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and littered with the skulls of those who believed that intentions were enough.

[Cantankerous]

Cap him, Blue. It's for his own good. Nothing good ever came out of Blood Magic. Nothing good for you, good for your chummers or good for the world. You might have been close, once, but he's already put a world of distance between you by starting out on that path, and how can you know he'll stop with his own sacrifice? What if "success" just needs "...a little nick, Omae, that's all... I'm close to fragged, or I'd tap myself..." that's how the Blood Path goes. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and littered with the skulls of those who believed that intentions were enough.

Remember, this is an old file I found in my computer, from way back in '48.

That's pretty much what I did... and had already decided to do it before I posted back then, but being less hardened then, I wanted to hear fifty people all scream the same thing to salve my conscience. Honestly though it was less out of a worry about him trying to play Hamlet with us instead of himself, but out of a simple conviction that if he walked out alive, or before he took off with us, he'd not scrupple to "borrow" what he needed from some poor schmuck living downstairs from his doss. He was in an "abandoned building" in Bargain Basement/Redmond back then and I did enough digging to find out that a few more people than normally go missing from such an area had gone gone missing in the two weeks since he "learned the secrets" to when I found out about him learning them.

The other problem was that I felt like a damned executioner afterwards. The only thing I console myself with is that he died quick and damned near painless. I used to carry an antique .454 Casull back then and one to the back of the head finished him before he felt it.

BB

[Captian C-Bucks]

Cap him, Blue. It's for his own good. Nothing good ever came out of Blood Magic. Nothing good for you, good for your chummers or good for the world. You might have been close, once, but he's already put a world of distance between you by starting out on that path, and how can you know he'll stop with his own sacrifice? What if "success" just needs "...a little nick, Omae, that's all... I'm close to fragged, or I'd tap myself..." that's how the Blood Path goes. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and littered with the skulls of those who believed that intentions were enough.

Enough said. Corruption - and the will to sacrifice everything that was ever once deer to you are parts of the BloodMages Codex... Your friend died, when he was diagnosed with the disease - and started to walk this vile path. Now, all that is left is an empty shell - greedy for power - just a shadow of who once was your friend. Streetscum..maybe but there are lines that shall not be crossed. Honor him with a last gift.. a good sized caliber round.. that ends his pathetic excuse of an existance.

The Cap

[Dumori]

I would turn him over for the bounty but back in '48 you didnt have the option but there was a quick mill for doing that one.

[Cantankerous]

The big reason I am bringing this up again, all these years later, is that I wanted to see how much opinions as to what was right and what was wrong had changed during the intervening years, so keep 'em comin'.


BB

[Cantankerous]

I would turn him over for the bounty but back in '48 you didnt have the option but there was a quick mill for doing that one.

*lol* Ahh that it was retroactive. I could almost retire on it, on damn am I getting too old for this now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


BB

[Shiloh]

Remember, this is an old file I found in my computer, from way back in '48.

That's pretty much what I did... and had already decided to do it before I posted back then, but being less hardened then, I wanted to hear fifty people all scream the same thing to salve my conscience. Honestly though it was less out of a worry about him trying to play Hamlet with us instead of himself, but out of a simple conviction that if he walked out alive, or before he took off with us, he'd not scrupple to "borrow" what he needed from some poor schmuck living downstairs from his doss. He was in an "abandoned building" in Bargain Basement/Redmond back then and I did enough digging to find out that a few more people than normally go missing from such an area had gone gone missing in the two weeks since he "learned the secrets" to when I found out about him learning them.

The other problem was that I felt like a damned executioner afterwards. The only thing I console myself with is that he died quick and damned near painless. I used to carry an antique .454 Casull back then and one to the back of the head finished him before he felt it.

BB

And 20 years down the line more of us know for sure that what you did was the right thing, not only for yourself, but for your chummers and the world you live in. You did your best by your teammate; if he hadn't been so screwed up I'm sure he'd've been grateful. Those squatters surely are too, or would be if they knew.

Yeah, Blood Magic is "Too far". When it ain't, we've already lost.

[CanRay]

IC: Hard call. Can good things come from evil and corruption? And, frankly, Blood Magic is pretty close to both those definitions. If you're looking for a whole-hearted "Cap Him!", I'm afraid I cannot give so. I didn't know the 'Runner, and some would have done well with their sacrifice, and made it count for something.

The person I would suggest geeking wholeheartedly, with no issues whatsoever, is the bastard that taught him the techniques in the first place. But, back in '48, it's as cold a trail as any I've seen, and probably already been done.

You had a tough choice back then, BB. You did what you thought you had to do with what you knew at the time. That's all any of us can do at any time.

Money.

[Shiloh]

IC: Hard call. Can good things come from evil and corruption?

They can, but there are limits where the good thing is tainted by the evil from which it's born. A good chunk of all the Toxics out there started with "noble" goals and ended up doing more harm than good; Blood Magic is right up there. BTLs have nothing on the temptation that kind of power offers, and cost you less.

[Cantankerous]

This was tough, then and now. I still loose some sleep over it. He would have been reliable "in battle". I have little doubt of that. He would have made a difference to, I think, and maybe another of my chummers from back then would be an old Runner sittin' discussing this with us now if I hadn't of capped Tik Tok. But the thing was, people in his hood started turning up missing, allot more than would have otherwise, I was certain. It was the highest total in over two years, since the first of the Ghoul affairs and the thing became an issue of possible extra security for me and my chummers, or maybe dozens or even hundreds of locals over time.

Honestly, back then I didn't know that it was a requirement that a sapient being per day had to die for him to use his juice, I just knew that suddenly he becomes a blood shaman and squatters start disappearing more than four a day instead of less than three a day as was the average...and that it coincided entirely with his new found abilities... over a period of weeks..entirely.

So I went there with the thought in mind that he had to go. His disease was already in the painful stage. Even with his daily healings on himself he was loosing the battle and it was visible. So, I confronted him on it. He admitted to "helping along a few chip heads", claimed they were mercy killings, which yes, made my own act that much more distasteful, then and yes, still today.

And thus these questions.

Sooo, if you knew that letting a few chip heads and druggies and various derelicts die would likely help to save your chummers, would you have pulled the trigger? Would you have waited until after the Run, just four days away, where he would be soooo needed and then off him? Were four druggies/chip heads/alchies who were likely going to die anyway too much to keep a friend alive?

If you had to swerve at the last minute and let a missile hit a car full of innocents instead of your heavily armored van, what would you do?

Gods above and below, where are the lines?


BB

[Blade]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ic.gif)

>> Where do you get all that from? Personal experience or the trid?
Sure all stories are always about bad blood magic thingies, but it was that way even before the Awakening!

I agree there's something wrong with people sacrificing young virgin girls (there are better things to do with them) or cutting up innocent victims, but what's wrong with someone sacrificing his own "life force" to give his teammates a boost? What's wrong is using the blood of an enemy you'd have killed anyway?

I'm not saying blood magic is good, but what if it's just another tradition with a bad PR?

> Slick

[Shiloh]

Sooo, if you knew that letting a few chip heads and druggies and various derelicts die would likely help to save your chummers, would you have pulled the trigger? Would you have waited until after the Run, just four days away, where he would be soooo needed and then off him? Were four druggies/chip heads/alchies who were likely going to die anyway too much to keep a friend alive?

You already answered that question, big guy. Maybe if all he was doing was cutting their throats, or slipping them an OD. But he was burning himself, and them in ways that weren't going to stop. You let 4 go that way, you're going to be so glad you survived all whole of body and mind that you'll "forget" for a couple of days, then start rationalising it to yourself. And you'll keep running with him, until he needs what you've got.

If you had to swerve at the last minute and let a missile hit a car full of innocents instead of your heavily armored van, what would you do?

Swerve. Dying in fire and shrapnel is a whole different order of thing than having your essence burned to fuel some Blood Magician for a day. Everybody dies. Nobody *has* to die by having their soul ripped apart.

Where do you get all that from? Personal experience or the trid?

Second hand. My tutor claimed personal experience. Her Way, what she taught me, is true, in that it works for me. I have no reason to suspect she lied.

...what's wrong with someone sacrificing his own "life force" to give his teammates a boost? What's wrong is using the blood of an enemy you'd have killed anyway?...

Because, as I am given to understand it, it's not just blood. And it's a slippery slope: the only way is down and eventually the barriers are eroded enough that they will use *you* to give themselves a boost. It's only a matter of time. Time until the need is great enough.

I'm not saying blood magic is good, but what if it's just another tradition with a bad PR?

Maybe it is. In this world anything is possible, but I think there's enough evidence on this count; the shadowtales only ever have Blood Magicians coming to a bad end, and, as I say, I've no reason to believe my tutor lied or was mistaken about what she saw.

[Magus]

Blood Magic can be used for Noble pursuits. It all depends on the means. Sacrifice of one's self for the greater good: Good Result.
Unwilling sacrifice of others for your own power/pleasure: Bad Result.

Remember Daniel Howling Coyote's GGD was blood magic.

[Captian C-Bucks]

Blood Magic can be used for Noble pursuits. It all depends on the means. Sacrifice of one's self for the greater good: Good Result.
Unwilling sacrifice of others for your own power/pleasure: Bad Result.

Remember Daniel Howling Coyote's GGD was blood magic.

I think all the people whos houses were destroyed, or the families and friends of the victims remember just exactly how "good" the result of the GGD was...

[Mordinvan]

Like everything in this world, blood magic is a cost benifit analysis. Was the people he was 'removing' from the gene pool making a worth while contribution to it? Or was he just adding a little clorine to kill the scum along the edges, and make it a safer place for his friends to swim? Everything has a time and place, and as runners most of us have pulled the trigger to the detriment of someone else, when it was in our benifit. I see this as being little different. How many of the lonestar/security guards which have been on the business end of a bullet were any more or less desirving of their fate then the junkies and chipheads this guy was taking out? As runners we commit murder all the time, sometimes because a job goes wrong, and sometimes because it IS the job, and you're ragging on this guy because he was doing it to keep his friends alive? Sure he might turn on you eventually, but thats why when you notice this pattern of behaviour you buy him a new watch/comlink, with a does to neurotoxin/explosvies inside, and a remote activation linked to your pan, just incase.

[Captian C-Bucks]

The gift of life is not that easy to measure...Every human beeing on the planet has their history- and some might walk on paths that are influenced by the addiction of drugs , but that does not make them "worthless scum along the edges".. Especially as runner you should see the dark sides of life - and some of the more brighter ones (a night in dantes Inferno after a big score). Now, that sometimes it is not avoidable to kill people especially in the shadowbuisness is out of discussion- but still some people choose to avoid wet-work.
Especially with people like BloodMages , you won't be able to tell - or to react - to their crossing of the line between shadowy.. and just wrong.
You could say that every massmurdering Monster out there is doing the world good by depopulating it .. but that is just a cheap excuse for complete social incompetence. I'm not asking anyone to run around handing out flowers.. but there are lines that should be uncrossable barriers - even in the shadow society.
The Cap

[Mordinvan]

The gift of life is not that easy to measure...Every human beeing on the planet has their history- and some might walk on paths that are influenced by the addiction of drugs , but that does not make them "worthless scum along the edges"

I don't remember saying worthless. You can put a price on them. Just ask any organlegger.

Especially as runner you should see the dark sides of life - and some of the more brighter ones (a night in dantes Inferno after a big score). Now, that sometimes it is not avoidable to kill people especially in the shadowbuisness is out of discussion- but still some people choose to avoid wet-work.

As do I with anyone who is of social or strategic value.

Especially with people like BloodMages , you won't be able to tell - or to react - to their crossing of the line between shadowy.. and just wrong.

Depends on how good a judge of character you are.

You could say that every massmurdering Monster out there is doing the world good by depopulating it

Depends on what segments of the population they are depopulating.

I'm not asking anyone to run around handing out flowers.. but there are lines that should be uncrossable barriers - even in the shadow society.

Life the universe and everything is simply a large mathematical equation. All one can do in life is to arrange it so that the end result of said formula is the best possible outcome for the one doing the arranging. If a whole bunch of people might die on a run, cause you have to do somewhere with very tight security, or one hobo will die before the run so your blood mage friend can make sure no one ever knows you were there... I think if a fair trade. The life of one chiphead for the lives of all the security, and possibly several members of your team? Its a trade I'd only make if the opportunity presented itself, or it was a day ending in "y".

[Captian C-Bucks]

Whos to say that your whole team will die? The team is not automatically doomed by going in there - the chiphead is..
Life as a mathematical equation has to be quite unfullfilling - what you are talking about is a mindset that only cares about one thing: efficiency.
Reducing yourself to the price an organlegger would pay for your remains is a sad attitude imo. There is more to life than just "strategic or social value"... and if you include emotions in "social value" then it makes me even more frustrated...
I hope you see the spark that I see at some point - and life itself is not only mathematics.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Cap

[Mordinvan]

I never said "would" I said might. How certain would the death of your team have to be before you'd cap some chiphead to save them?
1%? 50%? 95%? 100%?
I place a much higher value on the lives of my team, and even most of the rest of the civilized world then I do some random junkie, and if to keep them alive, said junkie has to eat a bullet, then its feeding time.

[Cantankerous]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ic.gif)

>> Where do you get all that from? Personal experience or the trid?
Sure all stories are always about bad blood magic thingies, but it was that way even before the Awakening!

I agree there's something wrong with people sacrificing young virgin girls (there are better things to do with them) or cutting up innocent victims, but what's wrong with someone sacrificing his own "life force" to give his teammates a boost? What's wrong is using the blood of an enemy you'd have killed anyway?

I'm not saying blood magic is good, but what if it's just another tradition with a bad PR?

> Slick

IC:

Where did I get this from? The horses mouth, so to speak. Tik Tok told me all about it, while trying to convince me that it didn't matter anyway because these people were "walking corpses who hadn't fallen down yet", that they were "wasted lives". What did they matter, he asked.

The problem with this is that using the "own life force" hurts. We are simple animals friends and neighbors. It becomes very easy to rationalize grabbing the needed life force from other people to escape the pain and still do something positive with the power. It becomes very easy to dismiss the value of another's life when your own can be made easier and/or less painful thereby.

This "tradition" doesn't just have bad PR. It requires blood in copious amounts from sapient beings. It requires that you kill, daily, according to Tik Tok, to "get the juice".


BB

[Captian C-Bucks]

How certain can you ever be of the death of your team beforehand?
In a world, where there are spirtis.. ghost and so many karmic ideals - would you want a friend of yours to do things to himself and the sorroundings that might fuck him up after his personal "feeding time?". I think there is a point where you do the society, yourself and the (in this case) Bloodmage a favour by ending it where it should end. And thats before he starts leeching other beeing´s essences. The one thing here is, that the chiphead just isnt involved in the thing. The idea of innocence in this very world is hard to bring across - but that poor bastard would just be at the wrong place at the wrong time. The runners though, make their choice themselves.. live or die.. run or dont... and that gives them all the right to die (or not) as they will. But at the same time - this is also the reason that imo refuses you the right to slaughter said chiphead - just to get an advantage over xyz corp security. Imo the most important thing still is , that you can sleep at night (or not depending on the neighbourhood ;P) and live on, with the person you are (or have become). I think that Blue would have had a hell of a worse time letting the guy live.. and do unspeakable things right in front of him..

Cap

[Cantankerous]

Blood Magic can be used for Noble pursuits. It all depends on the means. Sacrifice of one's self for the greater good: Good Result.
Unwilling sacrifice of others for your own power/pleasure: Bad Result.

Remember Daniel Howling Coyote's GGD was blood magic.

IC:
Howling Coyote was also called "Red Braids" because he liked to dip his braids in the blood of his kills. The man was an animal. He wasn't Stalin, he wasn't Hitler, he wasn't Mao, he wasn't even Kun...worse he was a man we were taught to revere...he was Truman.

Greater Good? There is no greater good. There is only life and death. That is the equation that matters. How many lives do you save by causing how many deaths. Were as many as 20,000 US service men spared by the deaths of more than a quarter of a million civilians, or would, as history tells us now, the Japanese have likely submitted if we had annihilated some uninhabited atoll? History gets popularized by the winner, but other reports survive as well and many point to the desire of the Japanese Emperor to have ended the war he already saw clearly that he could never win.

Certainly all those who died in the many and various NAN terrorist actions seldom get remembered these days... in the hopes of getting along with our "neighbors", much like the (very conservatively) quarter million dead civilians in Japan get swept, for the main part, under histories rug. So don't go quoting Howling Coyote as an exemplar, unless it as an example of how savage and blood thirsty a man can get when he feels dispossessed.


BB

[Cantankerous]

How certain can you ever be of the death of your team beforehand?
In a world, where there are spirtis.. ghost and so many karmic ideals - would you want a friend of yours to do things to himself and the sorroundings that might fuck him up after his personal "feeding time?". I think there is a point where you do the society, yourself and the (in this case) Bloodmage a favour by ending it where it should end. And thats before he starts leeching other beeing´s essences. The one thing here is, that the chiphead just isnt involved in the thing. The idea of innocence in this very world is hard to bring across - but that poor bastard would just be at the wrong place at the wrong time. The runners though, make their choice themselves.. live or die.. run or dont... and that gives them all the right to die (or not) as they will. But at the same time - this is also the reason that imo refuses you the right to slaughter said chiphead - just to get an advantage over xyz corp security. Imo the most important thing still is , that you can sleep at night (or not depending on the neighbourhood ;P) and live on, with the person you are (or have become). I think that Blue would have had a hell of a worse time letting the guy live.. and do unspeakable things right in front of him..

Cap

IC:
Cap, even if Tik Tok had saved that other team mates life, even if he had never done it (a blood ritual) right before my eyes, his price would still have been too steep for me, personally, to pay. I'm a selfish bastard that way. I wanted to be able to sleep at night and this way I could...well, more often than I would have been able to otherwise.

Yeah, having him would PROBABLY have meant that someone very dear to me would have lived. I have to live with that every day. I also have to live with the fact that I was able to "one to the back of the head" him because he trusted me... and that one might be worse.

But in the same situation I'd do it again today.


...


Still, this isn't about me. This question was posed to get your (all of your) responses...and I'm glad to see them. I'm glad that people will argue this question and not simply sit and let it go by because their opinions are unpopular. Screw popularity. It's more important that this kind of thing gets discussed than that someone else thinks well of you.


BB


PS: Cap, I do think it's mathematics. It's the mathematics of life and death and what you can live with. For instance, I solemnly believe that Truman's shade rest easy.


BB

[Cantankerous]

I don't remember saying worthless. You can put a price on them. Just ask any organlegger.

That is one of the reasons that the only wet work I'll do is when someone puts a smack out on the type of organ legger who helps his business along with a little unrequested euthanasia. Hell, in such a straight I'm known to even give a discount on MY services.


BB