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Cantankerous
I found this in an old file from back in the day, it brings up an interesting moral issue... in as much as we Shadowy types ever really concern ourselves with morality anyway, so I thought I'd post it and see what came came out of todays minds.

>>>>>[People, I've got a problem. Mario and the Jaegers are all three out of town, Clancy is in the stripe walled country club, again, and Snakehead and Friendly Pete hate Tik Tok with a blue passion because of the Suttler Run, so I thought I'd ask in here.

Tik Tok has managed to do what he's been trying to do for four years now...find the quick and easy way to LOADS of power. Blood magic. Yep, dumber than a door post and as per usual, convinced that he's right, that it's worth it.

But maybe this time he's, well, not right, but not so far wrong. Tik Tok is dying. It's a disease that strikes the central nervous system and according to both Abramalin, who may be the best Street Shamman/Street Doc around and the people at the Tacoma General Hospital he saw, it's only a matter of time, only a matter of when, not if. So he decided to go out like Roman Candle..and god knows we need him for this next run.

Now, for those of you who know a bit about blood magic, it's his own he'll be using, not that of some poor schlemeel off the streets and it'll be the ace in the hole for him to boot, but well, the chances are good that this WILL be his swan song. Yep, it's going to be that kind of job.

Also, wouldn't he have had to learn that somewhere kind of...rough?

Sooo, the real question is, where are we as responsible Runners morally obliged, if anywhere, to say, "no way man!" ? Where are the lines drawn? What is too much? Is there a place when we forget that we're all criminal scum anyway and say, "too far chummer"? What would you all do?]<<<<<


--Big Blue <15:20:33/04-10-48>
Shiloh
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ May 29 2008, 01:45 PM) *
I found this in an old file from back in the day, it brings up an interesting moral issue... in as much as we Shadowy types ever really concern ourselves with morality anyway, so I thought I'd post it and see what came came out of todays minds.

>>>>>[People, I've got a problem. Mario and the Jaegers are all three out of town, Clancy is in the stripe walled country club, again, and Snakehead and Friendly Pete hate Tik Tok with a blue passion because of the Suttler Run, so I thought I'd ask in here.

Tik Tok has managed to do what he's been trying to do for four years now...find the quick and easy way to LOADS of power. Blood magic. Yep, dumber than a door post and as per usual, convinced that he's right, that it's worth it.

But maybe this time he's, well, not right, but not so far wrong. Tik Tok is dying. It's a disease that strikes the central nervous system and according to both Abramalin, who may be the best Street Shamman/Street Doc around and the people at the Tacoma General Hospital he saw, it's only a matter of time, only a matter of when, not if. So he decided to go out like Roman Candle..and god knows we need him for this next run.

Now, for those of you who know a bit about blood magic, it's his own he'll be using, not that of some poor schlemeel off the streets and it'll be the ace in the hole for him to boot, but well, the chances are good that this WILL be his swan song. Yep, it's going to be that kind of job.

Also, wouldn't he have had to learn that somewhere kind of...rough?

Sooo, the real question is, where are we as responsible Runners morally obliged, if anywhere, to say, "no way man!" ? Where are the lines drawn? What is too much? Is there a place when we forget that we're all criminal scum anyway and say, "too far chummer"? What would you all do?]<<<<<


--Big Blue <15:20:33/04-10-48>


Cap him, Blue. It's for his own good. Nothing good ever came out of Blood Magic. Nothing good for you, good for your chummers or good for the world. You might have been close, once, but he's already put a world of distance between you by starting out on that path, and how can you know he'll stop with his own sacrifice? What if "success" just needs "...a little nick, Omae, that's all... I'm close to fragged, or I'd tap myself..." that's how the Blood Path goes. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and littered with the skulls of those who believed that intentions were enough.
Cantankerous
QUOTE (Shiloh @ May 29 2008, 02:59 PM) *
Cap him, Blue. It's for his own good. Nothing good ever came out of Blood Magic. Nothing good for you, good for your chummers or good for the world. You might have been close, once, but he's already put a world of distance between you by starting out on that path, and how can you know he'll stop with his own sacrifice? What if "success" just needs "...a little nick, Omae, that's all... I'm close to fragged, or I'd tap myself..." that's how the Blood Path goes. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and littered with the skulls of those who believed that intentions were enough.



Remember, this is an old file I found in my computer, from way back in '48.

That's pretty much what I did... and had already decided to do it before I posted back then, but being less hardened then, I wanted to hear fifty people all scream the same thing to salve my conscience. Honestly though it was less out of a worry about him trying to play Hamlet with us instead of himself, but out of a simple conviction that if he walked out alive, or before he took off with us, he'd not scrupple to "borrow" what he needed from some poor schmuck living downstairs from his doss. He was in an "abandoned building" in Bargain Basement/Redmond back then and I did enough digging to find out that a few more people than normally go missing from such an area had gone gone missing in the two weeks since he "learned the secrets" to when I found out about him learning them.

The other problem was that I felt like a damned executioner afterwards. The only thing I console myself with is that he died quick and damned near painless. I used to carry an antique .454 Casull back then and one to the back of the head finished him before he felt it.

BB
Captian C-Bucks
QUOTE (Shiloh @ May 29 2008, 02:59 PM) *
Cap him, Blue. It's for his own good. Nothing good ever came out of Blood Magic. Nothing good for you, good for your chummers or good for the world. You might have been close, once, but he's already put a world of distance between you by starting out on that path, and how can you know he'll stop with his own sacrifice? What if "success" just needs "...a little nick, Omae, that's all... I'm close to fragged, or I'd tap myself..." that's how the Blood Path goes. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and littered with the skulls of those who believed that intentions were enough.


Enough said. Corruption - and the will to sacrifice everything that was ever once deer to you are parts of the BloodMages Codex... Your friend died, when he was diagnosed with the disease - and started to walk this vile path. Now, all that is left is an empty shell - greedy for power - just a shadow of who once was your friend. Streetscum..maybe but there are lines that shall not be crossed. Honor him with a last gift.. a good sized caliber round.. that ends his pathetic excuse of an existance.

The Cap
Dumori
I would turn him over for the bounty but back in '48 you didnt have the option but there was a quick mill for doing that one.
Cantankerous
The big reason I am bringing this up again, all these years later, is that I wanted to see how much opinions as to what was right and what was wrong had changed during the intervening years, so keep 'em comin'.


BB
Cantankerous
QUOTE (Dumori @ May 29 2008, 03:33 PM) *
I would turn him over for the bounty but back in '48 you didnt have the option but there was a quick mill for doing that one.


*lol* Ahh that it was retroactive. I could almost retire on it, on damn am I getting too old for this now. smile.gif


BB
Shiloh
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ May 29 2008, 02:14 PM) *
Remember, this is an old file I found in my computer, from way back in '48.

That's pretty much what I did... and had already decided to do it before I posted back then, but being less hardened then, I wanted to hear fifty people all scream the same thing to salve my conscience. Honestly though it was less out of a worry about him trying to play Hamlet with us instead of himself, but out of a simple conviction that if he walked out alive, or before he took off with us, he'd not scrupple to "borrow" what he needed from some poor schmuck living downstairs from his doss. He was in an "abandoned building" in Bargain Basement/Redmond back then and I did enough digging to find out that a few more people than normally go missing from such an area had gone gone missing in the two weeks since he "learned the secrets" to when I found out about him learning them.

The other problem was that I felt like a damned executioner afterwards. The only thing I console myself with is that he died quick and damned near painless. I used to carry an antique .454 Casull back then and one to the back of the head finished him before he felt it.

BB

And 20 years down the line more of us know for sure that what you did was the right thing, not only for yourself, but for your chummers and the world you live in. You did your best by your teammate; if he hadn't been so screwed up I'm sure he'd've been grateful. Those squatters surely are too, or would be if they knew.

Yeah, Blood Magic is "Too far". When it ain't, we've already lost.
CanRay
IC: Hard call. Can good things come from evil and corruption? And, frankly, Blood Magic is pretty close to both those definitions. If you're looking for a whole-hearted "Cap Him!", I'm afraid I cannot give so. I didn't know the 'Runner, and some would have done well with their sacrifice, and made it count for something.

The person I would suggest geeking wholeheartedly, with no issues whatsoever, is the bastard that taught him the techniques in the first place. But, back in '48, it's as cold a trail as any I've seen, and probably already been done.

You had a tough choice back then, BB. You did what you thought you had to do with what you knew at the time. That's all any of us can do at any time.

Money.
Shiloh
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 29 2008, 02:54 PM) *
IC: Hard call. Can good things come from evil and corruption?


They can, but there are limits where the good thing is tainted by the evil from which it's born. A good chunk of all the Toxics out there started with "noble" goals and ended up doing more harm than good; Blood Magic is right up there. BTLs have nothing on the temptation that kind of power offers, and cost you less.
Cantankerous
This was tough, then and now. I still loose some sleep over it. He would have been reliable "in battle". I have little doubt of that. He would have made a difference to, I think, and maybe another of my chummers from back then would be an old Runner sittin' discussing this with us now if I hadn't of capped Tik Tok. But the thing was, people in his hood started turning up missing, allot more than would have otherwise, I was certain. It was the highest total in over two years, since the first of the Ghoul affairs and the thing became an issue of possible extra security for me and my chummers, or maybe dozens or even hundreds of locals over time.

Honestly, back then I didn't know that it was a requirement that a sapient being per day had to die for him to use his juice, I just knew that suddenly he becomes a blood shaman and squatters start disappearing more than four a day instead of less than three a day as was the average...and that it coincided entirely with his new found abilities... over a period of weeks..entirely.

So I went there with the thought in mind that he had to go. His disease was already in the painful stage. Even with his daily healings on himself he was loosing the battle and it was visible. So, I confronted him on it. He admitted to "helping along a few chip heads", claimed they were mercy killings, which yes, made my own act that much more distasteful, then and yes, still today.

And thus these questions.

Sooo, if you knew that letting a few chip heads and druggies and various derelicts die would likely help to save your chummers, would you have pulled the trigger? Would you have waited until after the Run, just four days away, where he would be soooo needed and then off him? Were four druggies/chip heads/alchies who were likely going to die anyway too much to keep a friend alive?

If you had to swerve at the last minute and let a missile hit a car full of innocents instead of your heavily armored van, what would you do?

Gods above and below, where are the lines?


BB
Blade
ic.gif

>> Where do you get all that from? Personal experience or the trid?
Sure all stories are always about bad blood magic thingies, but it was that way even before the Awakening!

I agree there's something wrong with people sacrificing young virgin girls (there are better things to do with them) or cutting up innocent victims, but what's wrong with someone sacrificing his own "life force" to give his teammates a boost? What's wrong is using the blood of an enemy you'd have killed anyway?

I'm not saying blood magic is good, but what if it's just another tradition with a bad PR?

> Slick
Shiloh
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ May 29 2008, 03:18 PM) *
Sooo, if you knew that letting a few chip heads and druggies and various derelicts die would likely help to save your chummers, would you have pulled the trigger? Would you have waited until after the Run, just four days away, where he would be soooo needed and then off him? Were four druggies/chip heads/alchies who were likely going to die anyway too much to keep a friend alive?


You already answered that question, big guy. Maybe if all he was doing was cutting their throats, or slipping them an OD. But he was burning himself, and them in ways that weren't going to stop. You let 4 go that way, you're going to be so glad you survived all whole of body and mind that you'll "forget" for a couple of days, then start rationalising it to yourself. And you'll keep running with him, until he needs what you've got.

QUOTE
If you had to swerve at the last minute and let a missile hit a car full of innocents instead of your heavily armored van, what would you do?

Swerve. Dying in fire and shrapnel is a whole different order of thing than having your essence burned to fuel some Blood Magician for a day. Everybody dies. Nobody *has* to die by having their soul ripped apart.

QUOTE
Where do you get all that from? Personal experience or the trid?


Second hand. My tutor claimed personal experience. Her Way, what she taught me, is true, in that it works for me. I have no reason to suspect she lied.

QUOTE
...what's wrong with someone sacrificing his own "life force" to give his teammates a boost? What's wrong is using the blood of an enemy you'd have killed anyway?...

Because, as I am given to understand it, it's not just blood. And it's a slippery slope: the only way is down and eventually the barriers are eroded enough that they will use *you* to give themselves a boost. It's only a matter of time. Time until the need is great enough.

QUOTE
I'm not saying blood magic is good, but what if it's just another tradition with a bad PR?

Maybe it is. In this world anything is possible, but I think there's enough evidence on this count; the shadowtales only ever have Blood Magicians coming to a bad end, and, as I say, I've no reason to believe my tutor lied or was mistaken about what she saw.
Magus
Blood Magic can be used for Noble pursuits. It all depends on the means. Sacrifice of one's self for the greater good: Good Result.
Unwilling sacrifice of others for your own power/pleasure: Bad Result.

Remember Daniel Howling Coyote's GGD was blood magic.
Captian C-Bucks
QUOTE (Magus @ May 29 2008, 07:17 PM) *
Blood Magic can be used for Noble pursuits. It all depends on the means. Sacrifice of one's self for the greater good: Good Result.
Unwilling sacrifice of others for your own power/pleasure: Bad Result.

Remember Daniel Howling Coyote's GGD was blood magic.


I think all the people whos houses were destroyed, or the families and friends of the victims remember just exactly how "good" the result of the GGD was...
Mordinvan
Like everything in this world, blood magic is a cost benifit analysis. Was the people he was 'removing' from the gene pool making a worth while contribution to it? Or was he just adding a little clorine to kill the scum along the edges, and make it a safer place for his friends to swim? Everything has a time and place, and as runners most of us have pulled the trigger to the detriment of someone else, when it was in our benifit. I see this as being little different. How many of the lonestar/security guards which have been on the business end of a bullet were any more or less desirving of their fate then the junkies and chipheads this guy was taking out? As runners we commit murder all the time, sometimes because a job goes wrong, and sometimes because it IS the job, and you're ragging on this guy because he was doing it to keep his friends alive? Sure he might turn on you eventually, but thats why when you notice this pattern of behaviour you buy him a new watch/comlink, with a does to neurotoxin/explosvies inside, and a remote activation linked to your pan, just incase.
Captian C-Bucks
The gift of life is not that easy to measure...Every human beeing on the planet has their history- and some might walk on paths that are influenced by the addiction of drugs , but that does not make them "worthless scum along the edges".. Especially as runner you should see the dark sides of life - and some of the more brighter ones (a night in dantes Inferno after a big score). Now, that sometimes it is not avoidable to kill people especially in the shadowbuisness is out of discussion- but still some people choose to avoid wet-work.
Especially with people like BloodMages , you won't be able to tell - or to react - to their crossing of the line between shadowy.. and just wrong.
You could say that every massmurdering Monster out there is doing the world good by depopulating it .. but that is just a cheap excuse for complete social incompetence. I'm not asking anyone to run around handing out flowers.. but there are lines that should be uncrossable barriers - even in the shadow society.
The Cap
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Captian C-Bucks @ May 29 2008, 11:32 AM) *
The gift of life is not that easy to measure...Every human beeing on the planet has their history- and some might walk on paths that are influenced by the addiction of drugs , but that does not make them "worthless scum along the edges"

I don't remember saying worthless. You can put a price on them. Just ask any organlegger.


QUOTE
Especially as runner you should see the dark sides of life - and some of the more brighter ones (a night in dantes Inferno after a big score). Now, that sometimes it is not avoidable to kill people especially in the shadowbuisness is out of discussion- but still some people choose to avoid wet-work.


As do I with anyone who is of social or strategic value.


QUOTE
Especially with people like BloodMages , you won't be able to tell - or to react - to their crossing of the line between shadowy.. and just wrong.


Depends on how good a judge of character you are.

QUOTE
You could say that every massmurdering Monster out there is doing the world good by depopulating it

Depends on what segments of the population they are depopulating.

QUOTE
I'm not asking anyone to run around handing out flowers.. but there are lines that should be uncrossable barriers - even in the shadow society.


Life the universe and everything is simply a large mathematical equation. All one can do in life is to arrange it so that the end result of said formula is the best possible outcome for the one doing the arranging. If a whole bunch of people might die on a run, cause you have to do somewhere with very tight security, or one hobo will die before the run so your blood mage friend can make sure no one ever knows you were there... I think if a fair trade. The life of one chiphead for the lives of all the security, and possibly several members of your team? Its a trade I'd only make if the opportunity presented itself, or it was a day ending in "y".
Captian C-Bucks
Whos to say that your whole team will die? The team is not automatically doomed by going in there - the chiphead is..
Life as a mathematical equation has to be quite unfullfilling - what you are talking about is a mindset that only cares about one thing: efficiency.
Reducing yourself to the price an organlegger would pay for your remains is a sad attitude imo. There is more to life than just "strategic or social value"... and if you include emotions in "social value" then it makes me even more frustrated...
I hope you see the spark that I see at some point - and life itself is not only mathematics.. smile.gif
Cap
Mordinvan
I never said "would" I said might. How certain would the death of your team have to be before you'd cap some chiphead to save them?
1%? 50%? 95%? 100%?
I place a much higher value on the lives of my team, and even most of the rest of the civilized world then I do some random junkie, and if to keep them alive, said junkie has to eat a bullet, then its feeding time.
Cantankerous
QUOTE (Blade @ May 29 2008, 04:29 PM) *
ic.gif

>> Where do you get all that from? Personal experience or the trid?
Sure all stories are always about bad blood magic thingies, but it was that way even before the Awakening!

I agree there's something wrong with people sacrificing young virgin girls (there are better things to do with them) or cutting up innocent victims, but what's wrong with someone sacrificing his own "life force" to give his teammates a boost? What's wrong is using the blood of an enemy you'd have killed anyway?

I'm not saying blood magic is good, but what if it's just another tradition with a bad PR?

> Slick



IC:

Where did I get this from? The horses mouth, so to speak. Tik Tok told me all about it, while trying to convince me that it didn't matter anyway because these people were "walking corpses who hadn't fallen down yet", that they were "wasted lives". What did they matter, he asked.

The problem with this is that using the "own life force" hurts. We are simple animals friends and neighbors. It becomes very easy to rationalize grabbing the needed life force from other people to escape the pain and still do something positive with the power. It becomes very easy to dismiss the value of another's life when your own can be made easier and/or less painful thereby.

This "tradition" doesn't just have bad PR. It requires blood in copious amounts from sapient beings. It requires that you kill, daily, according to Tik Tok, to "get the juice".


BB
Captian C-Bucks
How certain can you ever be of the death of your team beforehand?
In a world, where there are spirtis.. ghost and so many karmic ideals - would you want a friend of yours to do things to himself and the sorroundings that might fuck him up after his personal "feeding time?". I think there is a point where you do the society, yourself and the (in this case) Bloodmage a favour by ending it where it should end. And thats before he starts leeching other beeingĀ“s essences. The one thing here is, that the chiphead just isnt involved in the thing. The idea of innocence in this very world is hard to bring across - but that poor bastard would just be at the wrong place at the wrong time. The runners though, make their choice themselves.. live or die.. run or dont... and that gives them all the right to die (or not) as they will. But at the same time - this is also the reason that imo refuses you the right to slaughter said chiphead - just to get an advantage over xyz corp security. Imo the most important thing still is , that you can sleep at night (or not depending on the neighbourhood ;P) and live on, with the person you are (or have become). I think that Blue would have had a hell of a worse time letting the guy live.. and do unspeakable things right in front of him..

Cap
Cantankerous
QUOTE (Magus @ May 29 2008, 07:17 PM) *
Blood Magic can be used for Noble pursuits. It all depends on the means. Sacrifice of one's self for the greater good: Good Result.
Unwilling sacrifice of others for your own power/pleasure: Bad Result.

Remember Daniel Howling Coyote's GGD was blood magic.



IC:
Howling Coyote was also called "Red Braids" because he liked to dip his braids in the blood of his kills. The man was an animal. He wasn't Stalin, he wasn't Hitler, he wasn't Mao, he wasn't even Kun...worse he was a man we were taught to revere...he was Truman.

Greater Good? There is no greater good. There is only life and death. That is the equation that matters. How many lives do you save by causing how many deaths. Were as many as 20,000 US service men spared by the deaths of more than a quarter of a million civilians, or would, as history tells us now, the Japanese have likely submitted if we had annihilated some uninhabited atoll? History gets popularized by the winner, but other reports survive as well and many point to the desire of the Japanese Emperor to have ended the war he already saw clearly that he could never win.

Certainly all those who died in the many and various NAN terrorist actions seldom get remembered these days... in the hopes of getting along with our "neighbors", much like the (very conservatively) quarter million dead civilians in Japan get swept, for the main part, under histories rug. So don't go quoting Howling Coyote as an exemplar, unless it as an example of how savage and blood thirsty a man can get when he feels dispossessed.


BB
Cantankerous
QUOTE (Captian C-Bucks @ May 29 2008, 10:58 PM) *
How certain can you ever be of the death of your team beforehand?
In a world, where there are spirtis.. ghost and so many karmic ideals - would you want a friend of yours to do things to himself and the sorroundings that might fuck him up after his personal "feeding time?". I think there is a point where you do the society, yourself and the (in this case) Bloodmage a favour by ending it where it should end. And thats before he starts leeching other beeingĀ“s essences. The one thing here is, that the chiphead just isnt involved in the thing. The idea of innocence in this very world is hard to bring across - but that poor bastard would just be at the wrong place at the wrong time. The runners though, make their choice themselves.. live or die.. run or dont... and that gives them all the right to die (or not) as they will. But at the same time - this is also the reason that imo refuses you the right to slaughter said chiphead - just to get an advantage over xyz corp security. Imo the most important thing still is , that you can sleep at night (or not depending on the neighbourhood ;P) and live on, with the person you are (or have become). I think that Blue would have had a hell of a worse time letting the guy live.. and do unspeakable things right in front of him..

Cap


IC:
Cap, even if Tik Tok had saved that other team mates life, even if he had never done it (a blood ritual) right before my eyes, his price would still have been too steep for me, personally, to pay. I'm a selfish bastard that way. I wanted to be able to sleep at night and this way I could...well, more often than I would have been able to otherwise.

Yeah, having him would PROBABLY have meant that someone very dear to me would have lived. I have to live with that every day. I also have to live with the fact that I was able to "one to the back of the head" him because he trusted me... and that one might be worse.

But in the same situation I'd do it again today.


...


Still, this isn't about me. This question was posed to get your (all of your) responses...and I'm glad to see them. I'm glad that people will argue this question and not simply sit and let it go by because their opinions are unpopular. Screw popularity. It's more important that this kind of thing gets discussed than that someone else thinks well of you.


BB


PS: Cap, I do think it's mathematics. It's the mathematics of life and death and what you can live with. For instance, I solemnly believe that Truman's shade rest easy.


BB
Cantankerous
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ May 29 2008, 10:13 PM) *
I don't remember saying worthless. You can put a price on them. Just ask any organlegger.


That is one of the reasons that the only wet work I'll do is when someone puts a smack out on the type of organ legger who helps his business along with a little unrequested euthanasia. Hell, in such a straight I'm known to even give a discount on MY services.


BB
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ May 29 2008, 02:23 PM) *
IC:

Still, this isn't about me. This question was posed to get your (all of your) responses...and I'm glad to see them. I'm glad that people will argue this question and not simply sit and let it go by because their opinions are unpopular. Screw popularity. It's more important that this kind of thing gets discussed than that someone else thinks well of you.


Many people do think well of me. Just none of them do so because of my 'humanitarian' ethical view points.

QUOTE (Cantankerous @ May 29 2008, 02:29 PM) *
That is one of the reasons that the only wet work I'll do is when someone puts a smack out on the type of organ legger who helps his business along with a little unrequested euthanasia. Hell, in such a straight I'm known to even give a discount on MY services.


BB


I usually just bill the family for the bullet.
CanRay
IC:

Hearing about Tik and the people he killed to keep his disease at bay, I have to say: Yes, you did the right thing.

Paying in pain for your own sins is one thing. Paying in pain for another's sins concentially is the same. Forcing others to pay for your sins is the express to the hot seat.

I do ask myself quite often if I can sleep at night knowing that I order people to die, being a Mr. Johnson. I can. Everyone I ordered a hit on had it coming. Every 'Runner that died on one of my 'Runs knew the odds.

I don't set people up. Bad for Karma, and worse for business. And Fate is one mean Slitch when the debt comes due. No, better to spend more Nuyen than spend lives. And my actions prove that out far better than most of my associates that share my name.

No BB, you did right by the shot.

Money.
Cantankerous
IC:


Man, there are no easy jobs in the Shadows. Not Fixer, not Johnson, not any.

People, I'm damned glad to have a Mr. Johnson among us on this discussion. Too often we reinforce the feeling to each other that Johnsons, especially corporate ones, have no soul, feel nothing about the orders they give outside of the desire to see them carried forward unflaggingly. Not so people, not so.

If you convince yourself to believe in ANY stereotype you've limited your own options. KNOW nothing friends and neighbors and you'll know more than you did before.

Whether I did the right thing or not IS the question, but not for me. For me the thing is done, it's past recall even if I wanted to recall it. The question of right or wrong though is the important one...that and what we think about it, how we interact with it. maybe it helps us see ourselves and our own motivations more clearly, because we can come to believe in our own stereotypes as easily as we can stereotype others...and when we do that to ourselves we limit ourselves even more completely.


BB
Chrysalis
Big Blue let me tell how we operate on this side of world. I work as fixer in Eastern European countries. In my job I move all items. Better than FedEx and crimemall together.

I try to understand, you killed Tik Tok because he found access to power? He was already breathing but dead and he decided to die in good fashion. The cost was killing people. You know the cost of a human life? It's 300 nuyen, you want to buy one or a hundred? It is same as buying meat.

I never understood this with UCAS Shadowrunners. You like buying guns, big guns, small guns - nuclear weapons. And then when someone dies you become emotional, whether family, buddy or stranger. UCAS Shadowrunners have good money, make more money than most Shadowrunners, I suppose with big paycheck comes expensive luxuries. I like UCAS Shadowrunners, they come and spend well. I just do not understand problems of buying gun, but being afraid of shooting it. It is weapon. Good weapon. It is important.

I have been working the shadows in Europe for 20 years. I have have had family, buddy and stranger killed and I have not felt any emotion for it. It gives me respect, it makes clients confident to do business, and it makes competition envious.

Truth, I am not going to say if I know any blood mages. But suppose I did. If it gives me advantage to everyone else in my business why stop? It is no different than any other weapon.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 30 2008, 08:49 AM) *
Truth, I am not going to say if I know any blood mages. But suppose I did. If it gives me advantage to everyone else in my business why stop? It is no different than any other weapon.


Here's where the crux of this particular dilemma lies: how far would you go to gain an advantage?

Would you set a reactor on meltdown, having disabled all the possibilities for reversing the process, just to provide a diversion?
Would you hole a toxic waste tanker off virgin coastline for money?
Would you nuke a populated area?

I name these things as toxic acts the Unawakened could perform. Blood Magic is a toxic tradition. It's a very personal destruction that goes beyond the physical and into the metaphysical. And it will, eventually, affect you. A Blood Magician has something to gain from your death, something they *need*. Not "want", like money, sex, fame or the latest 'ware, need, like food, water, junk or the next serial killing. Next to that, professionalism counts for little.
Magus
Like I said Blood Magic comes in two varieties; Those that sacrifice thier own blood and pain for others, and those that are twisted and use the blood and pain of others for their own selfish gains. A sword is sword, it has two edges, one can be used to defend humanity, and the other to enslave it. Is it the swords fault, no the fault lies in the wielder.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Magus @ May 30 2008, 01:11 PM) *
Like I said Blood Magic comes in two varieties; Those that sacrifice thier own blood and pain for others, and those that are twisted and use the blood and pain of others for their own selfish gains. A sword is sword, it has two edges, one can be used to defend humanity, and the other to enslave it. Is it the swords fault, no the fault lies in the wielder.

My tutor would ask "Which of the Mage and the Magic is actually doing the wielding?" Can a Blood Mage guarantee to only ever self-sacrifice? That can be their intent, I'm sure, and I suppose the restrained ones tend to keep their poweerr sources to themselves, given the reputation of the Tradition. In my (admittedly limited) understanding, only the will of the mage stands between life and inevitable corruption, and everyone crumbles in time. And even the "affirmative" uses tap into corrupt sources.
Magus
Very True, and that all depends on the moral and ethics of the individual. Even Christ was tempted in the desert by Lucifer, did he fall? It all boils down to your own internal beliefs and morals. Know thyself. It will save you in the long run.
Blade
QUOTE (Shiloh @ May 30 2008, 01:50 PM) *
Here's where the crux of this particular dilemma lies: how far would you go to gain an advantage?

Would you set a reactor on meltdown, having disabled all the possibilities for reversing the process, just to provide a diversion?
Would you hole a toxic waste tanker off virgin coastline for money?
Would you nuke a populated area?


>> The third and, arguably, the first one lead to too much trouble to really gain an advantage, at least on my scale.
Incidentally, did you notice that "Mother Earth" or whatever you call it, already pulled the first (leading to the third) and second one on us? (though probably not for diversion or money)

> Slick
CanRay
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ May 30 2008, 01:12 AM) *
IC:

People, I'm damned glad to have a Mr. Johnson among us on this discussion. Too often we reinforce the feeling to each other that Johnsons, especially corporate ones, have no soul, feel nothing about the orders they give outside of the desire to see them carried forward unflaggingly. Not so people, not so.

BB

Unfortunetly, the majority of my Namesakes are such, so never trust the Johnsons. Better to be over-cautious than under. You'll live longer, and you can't spend the cred if you ain't alive! They see 'Runners as a "Resource", just like all the Drones in the Cubicals down on the Typing Farms.

Myself, I know that 'Runners are people too. Very dangerous ones, at that.

I respect dangerous. Being so myself.

But sleep well, BB, for that death at least. For the rest of your concience, that I can't speak for...

Money.
Chrysalis
QUOTE (Shiloh @ May 30 2008, 11:50 AM) *
Here's where the crux of this particular dilemma lies: how far would you go to gain an advantage?

Would you set a reactor on meltdown, having disabled all the possibilities for reversing the process, just to provide a diversion?
Would you hole a toxic waste tanker off virgin coastline for money?
Would you nuke a populated area?

I name these things as toxic acts the Unawakened could perform. Blood Magic is a toxic tradition. It's a very personal destruction that goes beyond the physical and into the metaphysical. And it will, eventually, affect you. A Blood Magician has something to gain from your death, something they *need*. Not "want", like money, sex, fame or the latest 'ware, need, like food, water, junk or the next serial killing. Next to that, professionalism counts for little.



I respond to this one. Today I receive bad shipment. I have chat with distributor , "why send me bad shipment?". The says he knows nothing, blames captain of ship. I cannot use shipment and captain blames distributor. What to do I have clients who want shipment and distributor and captain are to blame. To I leave it with a warning - no. I have to have shipment, so I make example of distributor. I make example of captain. I get rid of shipment.

It is business deal. And message is clear. There will always be new captains and distributors. Institutions are forever.

I believe you call what you say straw-human argument. Yes? You see something bad you compare it to things that are bad. If I use similar argument I could say concrete or guns should not be sold since it may end up be used for killing people.

I believe morality does not belong in business unless you are a deviant. Yes?
Shiloh
QUOTE (Magus @ May 30 2008, 01:33 PM) *
Very True, and that all depends on the moral and ethics of the individual. Even Christ was tempted in the desert by Lucifer, did he fall? It all boils down to your own internal beliefs and morals. Know thyself. It will save you in the long run.

Christ repudiated Lucifer and all his works, or so the story goes. He didn't carry on sinning just a little bit because that made his message easier to get across... That's where Blood Magic differs, as I understand it. It erodes those morals and ethics until they aren't strong enough any more. Know thine enemy; it's the other half of the equation.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ May 30 2008, 02:29 PM) *
I believe you call what you say straw-human argument. Yes? You see something bad you compare it to things that are bad.

I see why you might think that. But I believe you are mistaken. For my part I am persuaded that Blood Magic is bad in a very similar way to the way Toxic disasters are bad, hence I affirm that the comparisons are relevant, if somewhat hyperbolic; mundane activity tends to have to be extravagant to approach the levels of wrongness that Awakened corruption can reach. Every single Blood Mage is a little Chernobyl waiting to happen. Some of them will get geeked for unrelated reasons before they meltdown, but all of them are on a slippery slope, and no one can hang on forever.

QUOTE
If I use similar argument I could say concrete or guns should not be sold since it may end up be used for killing people.

Only if you're against killing people, and I'm not saying that I am. Sacrifices to Blood Magic are not just killings. Or even bloodlettings. They aren't amoral; they are tainted.

QUOTE
I believe morality does not belong in business unless you are a deviant. Yes?

Nope. I'm not sure what you're meaning by deviant: none of the meanings I ascribe to the word have any particular relevance to whether one would apply morality to business. Whether morality is appropriate to your business depends on what your business is. Moral codes vary between fields. A professional doctor has a code of "do no harm". Some moral codes are "looser", others are just different. Some businesses work on trust (high finance, for example), and though it may be the consequences of breaching that trust that hold some in line, others recognise the value of the "morality" in the field and adhere to it regardless of the presence of sanctions for the breach.

If you want to find a selfish strand to my abhorrence of Blood Magic, then you could look at how the background count it makes frags up my own mojo. If it were common practice, non-blood Magicians would be hosed. And, incidentally, so would most everybody, because in the end Blood Magic demands more and more blood, until whole societies' only purpose is to feed the mojo. If you think the Corps are bastards, you really won't want to work in Blood Magic World.
Cantankerous
IC:

Ohh, worry not Money, I know the score. I've been around the block a time or three. I'm just hoping to pass on the one golden rule to my fellow Runners that stereotyping ANYONE is leaving yourself open, weakening your position and limiting your options.

I'll tell ya ladies and gents, I've been in the position of delivery man for a shipment of merchandise the Johnson decided he didn't then like. He managed to get all but two of us in his expression of his displeasure. I and one of those two managed to get him, five of his associates, several of their associates and very likely a couple of their friends who weren't even peripherally involved, but who had guns and were shooting at us when the drek dropped in the pot.

Do I understand that opposing view points exist? Of course I do. I've been doing this for better than 25 years now. A quarter of a century in this business assures that you know the score. It assures that you know how little life means to some Johnsons and some Runners and some Cops and some Federal Agents and some Smugglers...and hell, even some Nuns.

But they aren't the point. YOU are. What YOU do and why you do it. Where you put value on a human life and how high that value is and what that means not only for you, but for the people you interact with.

Our Eastern Fixer states that because he puts almost no actual value on life, simply assigns it a monetary number, that the people he deals with respect him more. I have no doubt he believes that. And hell, it may be true, I believe that it is. I wouldn't want to deal with those people though. I wouldn't do so. Does that mean I miss a hell of allot of work? Yep, damn right it does.

What I get from it has infinitely higher value than the respect or lack of respect of my peers. It was a MUCH higher value than the money I pass up. It has no monetary or outside value at all, but it is more precious than both money and peer respect combined and trebled. I have self respect. If I valued human life any less than I do I'd loose that. As a Runner, then as a Merc, and now as a Runner again, I've always charted my own course. I've held life as important and because of that I can look myself in the mirror.

Even with this face. wink.gif

You know, our Eastern Fixer probably can too. I wouldn't doubt it for an instant. He tells us he feels no emotions about the deaths of friends and family. THAT is what he has given up. That is what he paid for the respect he places so much value on.

I on the other hand have given up a chance at more money and the respect of people I would loathe and have thereby retained my humanity. Personally, I think I have the better end of that deal.



BB
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