Non-martial arts, tricks and stunts for non-martial skills. Options

[PlatonicPimp]

Yeah, but if they are in a crowd, then they incure those penalties. Giving a bonus die in a circumstance that has a penalty is the same as reducing the penalty. I decided while writing these halfway through that unless you emliminate the entire penalty, then it's simpler to word as providing a bonus die. Personal writing preference, and I may not have applied it everywhere. The key is to be consistent in it's application, so I need a final edit.

[jklst14]

I would agree that the Social Arts part is great. It's actually the part I like best. And I think having Maneuvers and different social skill Schools are fine. However, I think it would work better if the basic social rules are beefed up as well. For instance, having a more detailed Interrogation mechanic, or Seduction mechanic or Debate mechanic or a Mexican Standoff mechanic. That would give a solid foundation upon which to add new Maneuvers. I have been thinking about this and have thought about adapting systems from other games (i.e. Duel of Wits from Burning Wheel) but haven't gotten around to doing so.

As for new social Maneuvers, I have a few rough (and incomplete ideas}.

Taunt
With a quick wit and a sharp tongue, the character can enrage and anger his foes. The character rolls Charisma + Skill and is opposed by the target's Composure. If the character succeeds, the Target does....

Character Assassination
Similar to Taunt, this Maneuver is directed not at the Target but at the Audience watching. The character insults the Target but his goal is to sway the opinion of the Audience. The character rolls Charisma + Skill and is opposed by .... If the character succeeds, he sways the opinion of the Audience one step in his direction...

Stare Down
"Do you feel lucky, punk?" The character spends a Complex action to deliver a bad ass one liner accompanied by a cold stare. The character rolls Charisma + Intimidation and is opposed by the Target's Composure with standard intimidation modifiers. If the Character is successful, the target hesitates and loses his next action....

Pep Talk
Before a battle, your character gives a rousing speech. Roll Charisma + Leadership. For every two successes, allied NPCs listening to your speech gain a +x to y in the upcoming battle.

One of the Boys
Your character has a knack of vanishing in crowds...

Good Cop
You have a knack of interrogating suspects without resorting to unpleasant tactics. For Interrogation rolls, you may roll Etiquette + Charisma instead of Intimidation, as long as you stick to your 'good cop' persona.

Who is Keyser Soze?
You are a natural liar. Even under pressure, you can think of a great story. When you are being interrogated, you may resist with Con + Charisma instead. If you win, you convince the Interrogator that you are telling the truth. The more net hits you roll, the more outlandish the story may be.

As for alternative schools, how about the Social Chameleon, a person who blends in effortlessly wherever he goes?

If I think of more, I'll be sure to post them.

[Daier Mune]

I'd be more in favor of eliminating martial arts than adding blankity blank arts. The idea that martial arts give you "oooOoo, special powers" is already fairly silly. The system should remain abstract, the more junk you add the harder it is to use and the easier it is to break.

don't think of it as special powers, but as special training. as an example: all four branches of the military train in various firearms, technical skills and physical apdetude, but a SEAL's special training is going to be different from an Airborn Infantry, which is different from a Marine Scout/Sniper.

[DireRadiant]

Like specializations?

[Daier Mune]

speciliziations represent a specific focus within a skill, such as a sprinting specialization within the running skill.

a skill group is a number of seperate skills that are represented by a common focus

special training, such as martial arts, are a group of skills that are not immediately linked together. a martial art or a firing stance might teach you about meditation, breath controll, flexibility, as well as the related melee/ranged skill.

i dono, it makes sense to me, but this is obviously house rules and not RAW.

[Dr Funfrock]

To be honest, my thinking on the whole "Martial arts give you cool stuff" thing is "Yes, yes it does, and that's AWESOME! Now all I want is to give everyone else stuff that's just as awesome."

It's like how Exalted solved the whole game balance thing by going "Hey, combat is really broken and over the top. I know, let's make everything else really broken and over the top, and then it'll all balance out."

We're not looking to do exactly the same thing, because we want to keep everything from actually being either a) ridiculous or b) overpowered, but the idea is simply to make social / vehicle / hacker / whatever characters just as cool as fighters get to be in most games.

Perhaps a better comparison would be Legend of The Five Rings, where courtiers have a school, just like mages or fighters, which defines how they approach their role as a courtier. So Scorpion (sneaky bastich) courtiers are all about lies, deciet, and trickery, whereas Crane (honourable to the point of conceit) courtiers are all about complex webs of favours and friends. This has the effect of making Courtiers seem just as awesomely badass as the Bushi or Yojimbos or whatever. It's possible to have a Five Rings party with three different social characters, each with a completely unique set of advantages and abilities useful in different situations.

Again, the point here is that if you don't like the Martial Arts rules, don't use them. This is just an expansion to the martial arts rules that lets everyone else get in on the game. If you're happy with characters just being defined by skills and specialisations (and there are many, many, many arguments for that being a better way to define characters) then just ignore all of this. You won't find anything of interest here.

[PlatonicPimp]

Stare Down
"Do you feel lucky, punk?" The character spends a Complex action to deliver a bad ass one liner accompanied by a cold stare. The character rolls Charisma + Intimidation and is opposed by the Target's Composure with standard intimidation modifiers. If the Character is successful, the target hesitates and loses his next action....

Who is Keyser Soze?
You are a natural liar. Even under pressure, you can think of a great story. When you are being interrogated, you may resist with Con + Charisma instead. If you win, you convince the Interrogator that you are telling the truth. The more net hits you roll, the more outlandish the story may be.

I love these two. consider them added. Perhaps instead of causing lost actions, however, staredown could lower the targets initiative by net hits for the rest of combat due to being scared? They could overcome it with a composure check and a simple action.

Perhaps all of the attribute switching abilities should be maneuvers. That'd pad them out quite a bit, but I'd have to rework the school bonuses some more. Polite hostess and guan-xi should probably be combined anyway.

Back to movement, now that I have my book in front of me, it turns out there is no list of penalties to running beyond "what the GM feels is appropriate." So something worded like "never takes penalty to running for moving through a crowd" is probably best. Maybe a bonus to picking pockets as well? Seems in character.

What we do have is a -2 penalty to any action taken while running except for charge attacks and defense rolls. I think we could have fun removing that penalty for specific tests. Parkour, for instance, takes no penalty to gymnastics checks made while running.

[Kyoto Kid]

Hide a knife with a smile:

...hey, that's supposed to be my line...well sort of...

Overall I like these particularly the Matrix and Social arts. I can see My little agent Night Angel using a number of the social Manoeuvres, particularly Social Mining and Loose Lips & could also see her learning couple of the Social schools.

[Daier Mune]

ok, here's some aerial maneuvers that i wrote up today. loosely based off of tactics discussed in a Modern Air Combat book (circa 1980).

-defensive maneuvers-

Break
the basis by wich all airborn maneuvers are based. the defender of an attack banks hard in the direction of the attacker, forcing the attacker to give chase or risk overshooting thier target.
-(close range)
- may be played as an interrupt action
-crash test to move out of firing position and into short range

Split S
after a defender sucssesfully performs a Break, the pilot may chose to further break away from thier attacker. may only be performed on a turn immediately following a Break.
-follow-up to Break
-(short range)
-opposed maneuver roll to disengage from combat/move to long range
-defender recieves a +2 to defensive rolls vs. thier attacker

-offensive-
Barrel Roll Attack
after a defender sucssesfully performs a Break, the pilot can immediately pull up and into a barrel roll, before dropping back down behind the attacker, turning the tables in combat. this is a high-g manuver, and the pilot puts himself at risk of blacking out.
-follow-up to Break
-must make a crash test to succeed & Body + Willpower (3) to remain concous
-if successful, defender is now in an attack position, recieving a +2 to their attack roll vs. thier previous attacker

-positioning-
The Immelmann
the pilot engages a steep climb, rolling as he gains altitude. at the apex of the climb, the pilot banks off the climb in his desired direction. this allows the pilot to perform directional changes as sharp as 90 degrees.
-(any range)
-crash test to change direction to any heading, may select engagement range

Scissors
the Scissors is the natural result of a Break maneuver, with the attacker and the defender banking back and forth as they jockey for position. this maneuver may only be initiated after the defender successfuly performs a Break, but can be performed by either the attacker or the defender. The Scissors often result in a stalemate, forcing both pilots to break away from each other.
-(short range)
-follow-up to Break
-opposed maneuver test between pilots
-loser forced out front (-1 defender), victor in firing position (+1 attacker)
-tie results in both pilots disengaging and moving to long range

-wing maneuvers-
Sandwich
one of the more common team-based maneuvers performed by a fighter wing (2 jets). one pilot allows the enemy to move into an attack position, but then Breaks and sets up the would-be attacker to be attacked in turn.
(short/close range)
-requries one wingman to make a Break action
-may be played as an interrupt action
-both wingmen make manuver rolls
-total successes are added to the next attack made against the aggressor

[PlatonicPimp]

Another pass at

Social arts

Maneuvers

Retort:
If the character successfully resists an attempt to persuade them socially, they may immediately follow their success up with a similar social roll of their own. Their net successes on the resistance roll are added as bonus dice to this roll.

Social Mining:
The character spends time in a social situation, talking to other people, gossiping, and subtly gathering information. The character smoozes with a social group in a social setting, making a Cha+etiquette check to learn information as per the data search skill on p. 220 BBB

Loose lips:
The character knows how to get someone to let slip information they meant to keep to themselves. During an etiquette or negotiation check, the character may choose to use hits to gather information instead of win the opposed roll. Hits spent this way do not count towards the opposed roll, but instead get the target to reveal specific information during the discourse. Use the target numbers for data search as a guide to how much information is revealed.

Hide a knife with a smile:
The player may hide their violent intent behind open and friendly body language. The character is essentially setting an ambush, only they substitute Con+Charisma on the surprise check

Stare Down:
"Do you feel lucky, punk?" You may, in combat, intimidate an opponent so badly that they hesitate to confront you at all. With a complex action, you deliver an intimidating one liner, break something impressive, or otherwise frighten your opponent with a standard intimidation check. If you succeed, your net hits are subtracted from your target's initiative score.

False confession:
You are a natural liar. Even under pressure, you can think of a great story. When you are being interrogated, you may resist with Con + Charisma instead. If you win, treat your net hits as successes on a con check to lie to the interrogator. The interrogator will be convinced they extracted the information they wanted, but instead they buy your lie.

Polite rebuttal:
You are skilled in politely controlling conversation, allowing you to disagree without causing offense. You may use etiquette in place of negotiation when resisting negotiation and con checks.

Guan-xi:
You know how to mix business with socializing seamlessly. Your friends never feel put apon. You may use etiquette instead of Negotiation when asking for favors or introductions from your contacts.

Fast talk:
By using logical fallacies, "common sense", and other debater tactics, you can make anything sound plausible, at least until the listener thinks about it too hard. You can force your target to use either Intuition or Logic in place of charisma to resist con checks.

Tempting offer:
You know how to craft a lie that people want to believe. By appealing to greed, ego, and other universal traits, you make your lies easier to swallow. You can force your target to use willpower instead of charisma to resist con or negotiation checks.

Give them what they want:
Your keen insight into the minds of other people give you the upper hand in social situations. Before any social check, you may make a judge intentions test against the target. Successes on this test, in addition to the information they provide, also provide bonus dice on your next social check against the target.

Adversarial interactions:
You know how to use subtle forms of intimidation during regular social interaction. By making people uncomfortable you throw them off their game. You can choose to use intimidation in place of negotiation to resist negotiation and con checks.

Social Schools

Cold hand style:
This is the art of casual intimidation. Perfect self control is the hall mark of the style, as those who practice it are self-assured enough to not have to resort to the petty displays of common intimidation.
+1 die to intimidation checks made without resorting to violence.
+1 die to composure checks. (may be taken twice)

Lets make a deal:
The art of knowing what your target wants and offering it to them, for a price...
+1 die on any social check resisted with willpower
+1 die to judge intention checks (may be taken twice)

Carouser:
It's all about the boozing and the whoring.
-The character gains +1 die to social checks when intoxicated. This may be taken twice. The first time essentially cancels out the penalty, the second time provides a net bonus of +1
+1 die to resist addiction.

Everyone's friend: ( need a good synonym for networking!)
The art of using your contact network to it's fullest advantage. Used with the contact rules on p. 280 BBB
+1 die on networking checks
-When asking for a favor, reduce the effective level of the favor by 1.
+1 die to resist judge intentions.

Matrix socialite:
You excel at using social networking software and other matrix tools to keep your social life together and meet new people.
+1 die to social checks when you have access to a person's real online profile.
+1 die on social checks via VR. (can be taken twice)
+1 die on social checks when receiving data from empathy sensor software.

[PlatonicPimp]

Add to matrix manuveurs:

Matrix Networking:
By searching your friends list online, their friends list, and their friends friends lists, you can often find a way in which you can connect to just about anyone. This works like a networking check (p. 180) except you use your contact's connection rating + your data search skill instead of connection+charisma. The threshold is the same. Technically you don't actually need to involve your contact directly when networking this way, but if you drop their name, it can get back to them. So typically it's considered polite to warn your contact you've spoken with a friend of theirs.

[PlatonicPimp]

ok, here's some aerial maneuvers that i wrote up today. loosely based off of tactics discussed in a Modern Air Combat book (circa 1980).
[snip]

-wing maneuvers-
Sandwich
one of the more common team-based maneuvers performed by a fighter wing (2 jets). one pilot allows the enemy to move into an attack position, but then Breaks and sets up the would-be attacker to be attacked in turn.
(short/close range)
-requries one wingman to make a Break action
-may be played as an interrupt action
-both wingmen make manuver rolls
-total successes are added to the next attack made against the aggressor

The problem with most of those maneuvers is that they are perfectly good descriptions of what goes on when you jockey for position with the normal roll to determine engagement distances. However, I think the teamwork concept of the wing manuveurs has potential. Also, determining if you are in or out of arc is good.

What kind of maneuvers can an aircraft pull off against a groundcraft? What about the opposite?

Lets see, maybe....

Loop:
Aircraft vs aircraft only, close range. The pursued aircraft makes an opposed vehicle check. The loser of this check is now the pursued, and the winner the pursuer.

Arial overwatch:
Aircraft vs. groundcraft only. Long range. When the pursued groundcraft attempts to break away, the aircraft may make a free sensor test. Each hit on this test adds 1 to the threshold for the groundcraft to break away.

Break LOS:
Groundcraft vs aircraft only. Any range. When a groundcraft is pursued by an aircraft, they may attempt to break way at any range by using trees, buildings, and other terrain to provide cover. Make the break away test, but subract the terrain modifier from the threshold instead of adding it.

Hmm. I don't know, even these seem a little iffy to me. I'm looking for things you Cannot currently do under the rules as written. I need to go watch some movies with chase scenes.

[Larme]

This whole thing is moving away from "martial arts" and moving into Perks like in fallout. I say abandon SR4 and use SPECIAL if you want this many off the wall abilities (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[jklst14]

I love these two. consider them added. Perhaps instead of causing lost actions, however, staredown could lower the targets initiative by net hits for the rest of combat due to being scared? They could overcome it with a composure check and a simple action.

I think that would work just fine.

I'll admit that I'm still not convinced these should all be Maneuvers rather than standard actions but you're doing good work and I'm glad to help. Here's a few other Social Maneuver ideas.

Wingman
You are adept at helping your friends accomplish their social goals, whether it is picking up women or conducting an interrogation. You may assist any social roll made by one of your friends, as long as you possess the appropriate skill.

Dismiss
AKA Talk to the hand. You have a way of blowing off criticism and ignoring the attacks of others. You may roll Composure to resist Intimidation rolls.

Oratory
You are a great public speaker. When speaking to a group, you may use your Leadership skill instead of Con

Master Debater
You are excellent debater. You may use Leadership instead of Negotiation during attempts at Bargaining.

[Daier Mune]

This whole thing is moving away from "martial arts" and moving into Perks like in fallout.

you say that like its a bad thing.

[Nigel]

I certainly hope these ideas get more widespread and developed - I love the social maneuvers so far.

You just gave me an idea, Larme. SR in SPECIAL? Hmm...just to determine skills.

[jklst14]

Another idea for a social maneuver:

Cunning Linguist
For you, the language of love is universal. You may ignore the language skill cap on social skills for Seduction rolls.

[PlatonicPimp]

This whole thing is moving away from "martial arts" and moving into Perks like in fallout. I say abandon SR4 and use SPECIAL if you want this many off the wall abilities (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I'll do you one worse. You know what my initial inspiration to do this was? Feats from the game that causes cancer.

[VagabondStar]

For "Combat Arts" here's a technique you could try incorporating:

Close Quarters Battle
+1 Dice Pool For targets within 15 meters
+1 Dice Pool For Initiative Upon "Making Entry" into a room
+1 Dice Pool For Employing Stun Grenades prior to entry into a room
Reduce Penalties for firing on targets using Cover and/or Concealment (like hostages) by 1 within 15 meters

[Fleinhoy]

I have to say I agree to a certain extent with Larme here, but I think for slightly different reasons.
Let me explain:

Martial arts do not give you any kind of super powers, but what they do give is a clear edge over someone who just brawls randomly. Using the martial arts system in Sadowrun lends different edges to the different styles, and as an experienced martial artist with first hand knowledge of a few different styles and second hand knowledge of many more, I say this is accurate.

There is no "ultimate" style that is better than others, but they convey different advantages, and if these strengths are played to it can give a very welcome advantage.

Now to why I do not see the point in what you are trying to do here (please don't get me wrong, though, I like many of the suggestions):

I see this kind of thing as a vicious spiral in gaming. The original martial arts system may have been added for colour, realism, fun, or just because some of the developers may have a passion for martial arts.

What this leads to, however, as this thread seems to very effectively prove, is that once a certain type of character gets something, players will want to add something similar to their characters as well, often going over the top. It reminds me too much of the cancer causing game, where balance and real, as well as imagined, faults in the system are constantly being "fixed" by adding feats, new special abilities and doo-dads.

I've used the martial arts rules for 3rd ed, and was not sure if I liked adding something as specific as that to a relatively abstract system, adding more and more things like this is something I'd be very careful about, though, lest the game becomes an unplayable quagmire.

[Mäx]

What this leads to, however, as this thread seems to very effectively prove, is that once a certain type of character gets something, players will want to add something similar to their characters as well, often going over the top. It reminds me too much of the cancer causing game, where balance and real, as well as imagined, faults in the system are constantly being "fixed" by adding feats, new special abilities and doo-dads.

Except none of these are over the top and their pretty expencive to get, especially after chargen( 5BP/10karma for one bonus and 2BP/4karma per manauver)

You don't get them for free like in the cancer causing game.

[Fleinhoy]

Very true so far, Mäx, but what I was getting at might not have been entirely clear:

From my experience with these bitwise improvements to character powers and skills they tend to spiral out of controll. Now we have the Drivers, the Martial artists, and the Talkers, then comes the Gunbunnies. After that the Martial artists feel put upon, and demand even more kick-arse (no pun intended) abilites, leading to the Talkers, Gunbunnies and Drivers also wishing a new upgrade and so on and so on....

Keep this up for a while, and you have what can be techincally classifed as a mess.

[Dr Funfrock]

But as you've just pointed out yourself, the martial rules don't really "power up" melee, they just diversify it. This is applying the same reasoning to everything. Why is it that fighters are allowed to have small advantages that can be made really worth while when they think tactically and play to their strengths, but everyone else limited to using the same set of standard skills?

[RunnerPaul]

Keep this up for a while, and you have what can be techincally classifed as -a mess- Rifts.

You had a misspelling up there. Fixed it for you.

[AngelisStorm]

Parkour

Advantages: +1 die to non-dodge gymnastics checks (may be taken twice); +1 die to climbing checks; or +1 die to running checks

Maneuvers:

Break Fall: May add double your gymnastics skill to resist falling damage.

Jumping Charge: May make a gymnastics [3] check to gain the superior position bonus in addition to the normal charging bonus.

Wall Run: When making an unassisted climbing check, if the character can get a running start they may substitute a run skill check during the first interval, gaining distance as per the unassisted climbing rules. This can then be immediately followed by a jump check, adding that distance as well. Finally the character must make a climb check [threshold 1-4] to catch a handhold (or fall). Further climbing checks are made as normal.