Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Non-martial arts
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
PlatonicPimp
The new martial arts rules are pretty cool. But the one thing I don't like about them is that they give melee characters an extra level of depth that other character types don't have. Also, there are neat things I'd like to do with certain skills that the rules aren't there for.

So I thought: why not use the martial arts rules as a base to customize other types of skills as well?
Non-martial arts.

The idea is there will be several categories of "arts" in addition to martial, such as "matrix arts", "social arts" and the like. They work the same, you take a level in a school of that art as a 5 point advantage, and get a bonus from that school's list and access to purchase up to two of that arts "maneuvers."

I'm hoping for a lot of opinions and ideas on this: It's a big job. I'm going to toss out what I've got and see what you think. If you've got any ideas of your own, please add them. In the end I hope to create a document containing all the finished arts and get it hosted somewhere.

Earlydawn
Count me as interested.
Jaid
sounds like a reasonable enough suggestion. not sure the social arts need even *more* dice, but certainly i think it would be nice to have something to distinguish the people who really truly have developed their skill into an art, and those who just do a job, for example.
PlatonicPimp
Matrix arts

Maneuvers:


Attack on the fly:
The character may make an attack against an agent or persona in cybercombat without having an attack utility loaded. Roll cybercombat+ programming instead of cybercombat + attack. The attack has no base damage, but net hits add damage as normal.

Defend on the fly:
The character can use their programing ability to shore up their defenses. The character makes an interrupt action similar to full defense to add their programming skill to the matrix damage resistance test.

Signal proxy:
If a character suspects they will be traced, this maneuver allows them to make a single redirect trace action in advance of their accessing a node. Hits add to a trace attempt's threshold as normal.

Two pronged exploit:
A character with this maneuver can open 2 copies of an attack program and attack with both, splitting their dice pool between the two attacks. The attacks may be made against separate targets for an additional -2 to both attacks.

Productive schitzophrenia:
The character can split their attention effectively even in full VR, allowing him to effectively focus his attention on two nodes at once.

Late night programming:
Through good coding practices or simple lack of better things to do, the character codes quickly. Halve the intervals for programming skill checks.

Optimized code:
The character knows how to get the most out of a system's resources, provided they can tweak all the code running on it. If a character with this maneuver wrote every program currently running on the system himself, including the system and firewall, increase the response rating by 1.

Spam attack:
The character overwhelms a target with viral ads, pop-ups, and spam. They make a hacking+spoof check with a threshold equal to their target's firewall. Each hit gives the target a -1 AR penalty (as per p. 208 BBB), up to -3.
This attack fools a commlink into letting the spam through, but does not hack the commlink itself. The node gets no chance to detect the attack.

Schools of hacking


Old school hacking:
The preferred school of most of the older generation of hackers, who insist that if you can't program you aren't really a hacker at all.
+1 die when using programs you coded yourself.
+1 DV when attacking with programs you coded yourself
+1 die to programming

Cyber-duelist:
These hackers specialize in taking out other hackers. Deulists tend towards high egos, and tend to forgo subtle hacks in favor of a "attack prgorams blazing" strategy.
+1 DV against Persona
+1 die to matrix perception checks in hot-sim

Net-Witches:
These script-kiddies are the latest generation of hackers. They tend to let their agents (which they call familiars) do the grunt work, and remain in AR rather than go full immersion. The few that can program tend to write the code for the rest, and are referred to as source-erors.
+1 die to matrix perception in AR
+1 die on reality filter checks.
+1 die on checks made by agents to understand orders.

Pirate:
Information should be free is the mantra of these hackers. Open source is great, but too many good tools are proprietary, and who has time to code from scratch?
+1 die on data search checks to locate pirated programs or media.
+1 die to crack copy protection.
-1 threshold on decryption checks.
Dr Funfrock
It sounds like a cool system, and I'm always interested in cool systems.
PlatonicPimp
Vehicular arts

Maneuvers

Crazy Ivan:
The character may make a break away action from close range instead of long range. Add 1 to the threshold of this stunt. If successful, the character immediately moves to long range. Only one break away check of the three required to get away may be a Crazy Ivan.

Break Lock:
If a vehicle is locked onto with active sensor targeting, the pilot with this maneuver can attempt to break the lock. Make a vehicle stunt with a threshold equal to the targeting vehicle's sensor rating. Success breaks the target lock.

Chicken:
By voluntarily making a crash check against a threshold the character chooses, he may force every pursueing vehicle in chase combat to make a crash check against the same threshold.

Eat dust:
The character can maneuver to create a dust cloud, knock fruit carts over, or otherwise make the terrain behind them less passible than a moment ago. The character makes a vehicle stunt. Success increases the terrain's difficulty by 1 level for vehicles pursuing you for the remainder of the combat turn.

Dual targeting:
A rigger in full VR can target 2 weapons at once, splitting their dice pool as per 2 weapon fighting.

Piloting schools

Manual:
Some people still insist on piloting their vehicles the old fashioned way, with manual controls. Popular among bikers and adepts. Because they don't sense damage to their vehicles the same way, they can push their limits farther than many riggers.
-1 to vehicle thresholds when piloting a vehicle without DNI.
+1 die on non-gunnery attacks made from a moving vehicle.
+1 die on acceleration checks.

Pursuit:
This is the kind of offensive driving Law enforcement pursuit squads are trained in. It focuses entirely on being the pursuer in a chase.
+1 die on evasive driving.
+1 DV on ram checks
Requires 4 successful break away checks to lose instead of 3, in chase combat.

Street racer:
The art of getting maximum speed on city streets. Equal focus on going fast and on getting away from the inevitable police pursuit.
+1 die on acceleration checks (may be taken twice)
-1 threshold on break away stunts in chase combat.

PlatonicPimp
Social arts

Maneuvers

Retort:
If the character successfully resists an attempt to persuade them socially, they may immediately follow their success up with a similar social roll of their own. Their net successes on the resistance roll are added as bonus dice to this roll.

Social Mining:
The character spends time in a social situation, talking to other people, gossiping, and subtly gathering information. The character smoozes with a social group in a social setting, making a Cha+etiquette check to learn information as per the data search skill on p. 220 BBB

Butter up:
The character may flatter, impress, attract or otherwise attempt to make the target more amenable to listen to what they have to say. The character makes an etiquette check as normal. Net Successes on this check provide bonus dice on a follow up Con or Negotiation roll.

Loose lips:
The character knows how to get someone to let slip information they meant to keep to themselves. During an etiquette or negotiation check, the character may choose to use hits to gather information instead of win the opposed roll. Hits spent this way do not count towards the opposed roll, but instead get the target to reveal specific information during the discourse. Use the target numbers for data search as a guide to how much information is revealed.

Hide a knife with a smile:
The player may hide their violent intent behind open and friendly body language. The character is essentially setting an ambush, only they substitute Con+Charisma on the surprise check.

Social Schools

Cold hand style:
This is the art of casual intimidation. Perfect self control is the hall mark of the style, as those who practice it are self-assured enough to not have to resort to the petty displays of common intimidation.
-The character may use intimidation in place of negotiation to resist negotiation checks.
-The character may force an opponent to use charisma instead of willpower to resist intimidation.
+1 die to composure checks.

Temptation:
The art of knowing what your target wants and offering it to them, for a price...
-The character may force their target to use willpower in place of charisma to resist con.
-The character may force their target to use willpower in place of charisma to resist negotiation.
+1 die to judge intention checks (may be taken twice)

Fast talker:
The art of saying things that make sense until you think about them too hard. Usually by that time, the fast-talk-artist is gone.
-The character may force their target to use logic in place of charisma to resist con.
-The character may force their target to use intuition in place of charisma to resist con.
+1 additional bonus die for possessing plausible evidence.

Carouser:
It's all about the boozing and the whoring.
-The character may resist intimidation with Charisma instead of willpower.
-The character gains +1 die to social checks when intoxicated. This may be taken twice. The first time essentially cancels out the penalty, the second time provides a net bonus of +1
+1 die to resist addiction.

Polite Hostess:
Often when dealing with others, it pays to be polite and subtle. Heavily favored among oriental socialites, cortesans and courtiers the world over.
-May resist negotiation with etiquette instead of negotiation.
+1 die to composure checks.
+1 die to judge intentions.

Guan-xi:
The art of using your contact network to it's fullest advantage. Used with the contact rules on p. 280 BBB
+1 die on networking checks
-When asking for a favor, reduce the effective level of the favor by 1.
-May use etiquette instead of negotiation when networking or asking for favors from contacts.
Daier Mune
ok, thats pretty pimp right there, especially the vehicular arts. i'd recommend adding drift-style racing and aggressive urban traffic driving.

i could see this as being applied to ranged combat and spellcasting, too. shooters have a number of 'stances' that they use when in combat, and since so much of magic is based off of emotion, i'm sure there are 'frames of mind' that a mage can put themselves in before conjuring up a firebolt.
PlatonicPimp
Movement Arts

Manuveurs

Breakfall roll:
The character adds their gymnastics skill to the roll to resist falling damage.

Spelunker:
The character is skilled at moving through small spaces, such as caverns, sewers or ductwork. With a complex action, the character may make and agilty + gymnastics roll, similar to running. Each hit adds 1 meter to their movement speed through ducts or other enclosed spaces.

Acrobatic charge:
The character may make a gymnastics check as part of a charge. If successful, they gain the superior postiion advantage as well as the bonus from the charge.

Wall-run:
When making an unassisted climbing check, if the character can get a running start they may substitute a running skill check for the first interval, gaining height as per the unassisted climbing rules. This is immediately followed by a jump check for height, adding that distance as well. Further climbing checks on following intervals are made as normal.

Kip up
The character is never prone unless they want to be. Moving from prone to standing is a free action.

Chicken
When running from pursuers, often moving someway they cannot follow is better than speed. The character may make a running, climbing, jumping or gymnastics check with a threshold they choose. If they succeed, any pursuers must make the same check with the same threshold to follow. If the character fails, though, they are caught.
(This works best if you use a modified version of the pursuit rules for on foot chases.)

Houdini:
The character may make an opposed Disguise or a palming check at the same time they make an escape artist check. If successful, they give no outward sign they have made an escape attempt. IF the attempt fails, it is not noticed. If it succeeds, the character is effectively free but still appears restrained.

schools of movement

Parkour:
The art of overcoming obstacles to one's path. Fluid and acrobatic movements allow traceurs to flow through any environment.
+1 die to land in a specific location after a jump.
+1 die to running checks in difficult terrain. May be taken twice.
-Threshold for unassisted climb upwards and climbing horizontally becomes distance in meters.

Gymnastic infiltration:
Uses flexibility, body control and athleticism to overcome typical B&E deterrents
-The character may use agilty + gymnastics to avoid tripwires or laser tripwires.
-Reduce the threshold to remove weight from a pressure pad by 1
-May use gymnastics in place of infiltration to defeat motion sensors.

[credit to dr. funrock, below]
Crowd-walking:
City crowds, nightclubs, and the like can be difficult to move through normally. Not so for the crowwalker, who can instinctively move through the momentary gaps that open up between people. This is the art of negotiating those crowds with haste or disappearing within them.
- The character's walking speed is unhindered by crowds of people.
+1 die on running checks through crowds.
+1 die on shadowing checks through crowds.
+1 die on perception checks in a crowded area.
PlatonicPimp
I need a few more social maneuvers and a lot more piloting maneuvers, especially air or water based ones. A rigger school or two for air pilots would be nice. The movement arts needs a lot more work. I'm also thinking of technical arts, like the field mechanic who specializes in quick fixes and kitbashing, and the tinkerer who can fit more customizations into gear, and maybe the Macguyver who takes less penalties for lack of tools and materials. A few medic schools like EMS and Alternative medicine would also be in there.

An infiltration school that lets you use infiltration instead of perception to case a joint, and on various typical B&E checks that use other things right now would also be nice, I'm not sure what kind of art that would be though.

I'm specifically avoiding magical schools, because mechanically metamagics, mentors, and traditions cover all that jazz for magicians.

Anybody got any suggestions?

PBTHHHHT
one suggestion for movement would be for those adjusted for moving through crowds, there are those who can navigate it easier than others.

Hmmm... these are all very cool stuff, I like it alot.
Daier Mune
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jun 4 2008, 12:11 AM) *
I need a few more social maneuvers and a lot more piloting maneuvers, especially air or water based ones. A rigger school or two for air pilots would be nice. The movement arts needs a lot more work. I'm also thinking of technical arts, like the field mechanic who specializes in quick fixes and kitbashing, and the tinkerer who can fit more customizations into gear, and maybe the Macguyver who takes less penalties for lack of tools and materials. A few medic schools like EMS and Alternative medicine would also be in there.


i've got a book on air combat that i can grab a few manuvers out of, but i'll have to do it tomorrow.
Mordinvan
I am very impressed with the idea, and think you did a great job with the write up. They look awesome, and I look forward to being able to try them out.
Dr Funfrock
Just realised that I once had the thought of writing some martial arts styles for military and police training styles. Let me dig that file up post what I had.

No maneuvers, but these are combat arts so there's a pretty big pool already. If anyone can come up with some specifically ranged combat focused manuevers though, that'd be cool.

Special Weapons & Tactics
Take aim becomes a free action.
Reduce called shot penalties by 1 (to a minimum of -1)
Reduce shooting in melee penalties by 1.
+1 dice pool on initiative rolls.

Police / Security Training
+1 dice pool on Clubs attacks.
Ready weapon is a free action.
+1 dice pool on Unarmed Subdual attacks.
Reduce shooting into melee penalties by 1.

Sniper Training
Reduce called shot penalties by 1.
Reduce range penalties by 1.
Increase maximum aimed shot bonus by 1 (this can be taken twice).
Larme
I'd be more in favor of eliminating martial arts than adding blankity blank arts. The idea that martial arts give you "oooOoo, special powers" is already fairly silly. The system should remain abstract, the more junk you add the harder it is to use and the easier it is to break.
The Jopp
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Jun 4 2008, 05:19 AM) *
one suggestion for movement would be for those adjusted for moving through crowds, there are those who can navigate it easier than others.

Hmmm... these are all very cool stuff, I like it alot.


Sharp Elbows
The character is experienced in moving in crowds, fashion store sales, rock concerts and other similar enviroments.

+1 to moving through crowded areas
-1 to infiltration/stealth tests in open areas
Dr Funfrock
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 4 2008, 02:16 AM) *
I'd be more in favor of eliminating martial arts than adding blankity blank arts. The idea that martial arts give you "oooOoo, special powers" is already fairly silly. The system should remain abstract, the more junk you add the harder it is to use and the easier it is to break.


It's a perfectly reasonable stance to take. The answer is; don't use martial arts. They're an optional rule anyway. The point of this thread isn't to try to "fix" martial arts, it's about us going "Hey, this is awesome, what else can we do with it?"


QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jun 4 2008, 02:35 AM) *
Sharp Elbows
The character is experienced in moving in crowds, fashion store sales, rock concerts and other similar enviroments.

+1 to moving through crowded areas
-1 to infiltration/stealth tests in open areas


"moving through" is too broad. Make it +1 to Running rolls in crowds.
Also, this is 4th ed we're talking about. Martial Arts aren't a package of matched bonuses and penalties, so drop the -1.
The idea is that you have 4 bonuses you can buy, for 5 Build Points each.

let's try this:
Face In The Crowd
Ignore up to -2 in penalties to Running rolls for moving through crowds.
+1 to Shadowing rolls in crowded areas.
Ignore up to -1 in penalties for Perception tests made in crowded areas.
Ignore 1 point of Spam Zone penalties for excessive AR clutter.

Might be a little underpowered as is. I guess we just have to define crowds as any busy city street... with the standard urban sprawl type setting that would make it very useful.
The Jopp
Just a bunch of ideas, feel free to modify

Jury Rigging
The character is experienced in make quick-fixes and add-ons that are not originally intended for such use.

+1 to vehicle modification tests
+1 modification slot on vehicles

Tinkerer
The tinkerer is an expert in miniaturization and drones
+1 Modification slot on drones
+1 to drone modification tests

Expert Gunsmith
The gunsmith knows how to squeeze in just that little bit more…
+1 to firearms modification tests
+1 modification slot

Expert Weaponsmith
The weaponsmith knows everything there is about melee weapons and how to make them…
+1 to melee weapon modification tests
+1 modification slot

Bomb Disposal Expert
+1 to defusing tests (Can be taken twice)
+1 to improvised explosives (Can be taken twice)

The Mad Bomber
+1 to using improvised explosives(Can be taken twice)
+1 to commercial explosives (Can be taken twice)

Industrial Explosives Expert
+1 to Cratering and Breaching (Can be taken twice)
+1 to demolitions tests using commercial explosives (Can be taken twice)
+1 when using it in buildings

Military Explosives Operative
+1 to cratering and breaching
+1 plastic explosives (Can be taken twice)
-2 defusing tests

Emergency Doctor
+1 on First Aid skill
-1 on Medicine skill
Iota
Just wanted to say that this is one of the most wonderful ideas i`ve heard.

This is a great opportunity for experienced characters to further improve their skills and becoming unique.

Go on pls !
Faelan
This looks really sweet.
jklst14
Looks really good. I like how it brings additional options to areas of the game that are less developed rule-wise (i.e. vehicles, movement, social).

However, I think it might be better to turn some of the simpler Maneuvers into just regular standard actions that anyone with the appropriate skill(s) can use. To me, it seems a little costly BP wise to make someone purchase a Style and the Maneuver before they can even attempt to try things like the Chicken Maneuver (for Movement Arts) or Social Mining.
Dashifen
Agreed with the above. This is great work. I'll spend a little time on it when I'm not at work but keep up the good work.
Wesley Street
I like the Social Arts!!! Combat (magical or mundane) is covered in ridiculous detail in every RPG but charisma skills always get brushed away or minimized. Very cool!
PlatonicPimp
Yeah, The social arts just kinds came together when I looked at the table and said "you resist what with what now?" Rather than strait adding to dice pools, I really got into being able to target your social-fu at a specific weak stat for your opponent.

As for turning maneuvers into standard actions: There are quite a few combat maneuvers that argument stands for as well. You're certainly more than welcome to allow anyone to do them. I'm stuck in a few dilemmas about that, however. One is that I'm short for manuveurs to begin with. I'd like at least 8 maneuvers for each type of art, otherwise a maxed level 4 art doesn't get you much. Another is I don't want the manuveurs to simply add bonus dice to certain kinds of checks. That's what the special abilities of the various schools do. Maneuvers should give you new ways to use your skill.

I like crowd-surfing as an art. I'm going to add my take on it to the movement arts.

Houdini seems a little out of place where it is. I'm certain that escape artistry and sleight of hand are movement arts, but I need more for them. At least enough to make a 2 level school out of it.
Dr Funfrock
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jun 4 2008, 12:42 PM) *
Yeah, The social arts just kinds came together when I looked at the table and said "you resist what with what now?" Rather than strait adding to dice pools, I really got into being able to target your social-fu at a specific weak stat for your opponent.


That was the part that made me go "Dude, awesome!" in my worst Keanu Reaves voice. I love the idea of giving a characterful benefit that doesn't just come as yet another dice pool bonus. This is a good model to apply in general, as it lets people play to their strengths, or their enemies weaknesses, without just making DICE POOL OF DOOM!

I also note that you haven't allowed anyone to swap in Logic for anything (except for forcing the opponent to resist on it), which is good since Logic is the only mental stat that can be cybered. Allowing people to swap it in on their own tests would be rather broken.

Finally, quick thought on your edits to my edits of the crowd style; I deliberately avoided giving an actual bonus to Running in crowds, because Running adds directly to the number of metres a character covers in a turn. By making it a bonus, you make it so that the guy actually speeds up when there's people around him. I think there needs to be the assumption that this is only a way of buying off penalties, not of actually getting faster, because the aim of the style is clearly that this person is less impeded by crowds of people.
PlatonicPimp
Yeah, but if they are in a crowd, then they incure those penalties. Giving a bonus die in a circumstance that has a penalty is the same as reducing the penalty. I decided while writing these halfway through that unless you emliminate the entire penalty, then it's simpler to word as providing a bonus die. Personal writing preference, and I may not have applied it everywhere. The key is to be consistent in it's application, so I need a final edit.
jklst14
I would agree that the Social Arts part is great. It's actually the part I like best. And I think having Maneuvers and different social skill Schools are fine. However, I think it would work better if the basic social rules are beefed up as well. For instance, having a more detailed Interrogation mechanic, or Seduction mechanic or Debate mechanic or a Mexican Standoff mechanic. That would give a solid foundation upon which to add new Maneuvers. I have been thinking about this and have thought about adapting systems from other games (i.e. Duel of Wits from Burning Wheel) but haven't gotten around to doing so.

As for new social Maneuvers, I have a few rough (and incomplete ideas}.

Taunt
With a quick wit and a sharp tongue, the character can enrage and anger his foes. The character rolls Charisma + Skill and is opposed by the target's Composure. If the character succeeds, the Target does....

Character Assassination
Similar to Taunt, this Maneuver is directed not at the Target but at the Audience watching. The character insults the Target but his goal is to sway the opinion of the Audience. The character rolls Charisma + Skill and is opposed by .... If the character succeeds, he sways the opinion of the Audience one step in his direction...

Stare Down
"Do you feel lucky, punk?" The character spends a Complex action to deliver a bad ass one liner accompanied by a cold stare. The character rolls Charisma + Intimidation and is opposed by the Target's Composure with standard intimidation modifiers. If the Character is successful, the target hesitates and loses his next action....

Pep Talk
Before a battle, your character gives a rousing speech. Roll Charisma + Leadership. For every two successes, allied NPCs listening to your speech gain a +x to y in the upcoming battle.

One of the Boys
Your character has a knack of vanishing in crowds...

Good Cop
You have a knack of interrogating suspects without resorting to unpleasant tactics. For Interrogation rolls, you may roll Etiquette + Charisma instead of Intimidation, as long as you stick to your 'good cop' persona.

Who is Keyser Soze?
You are a natural liar. Even under pressure, you can think of a great story. When you are being interrogated, you may resist with Con + Charisma instead. If you win, you convince the Interrogator that you are telling the truth. The more net hits you roll, the more outlandish the story may be.

As for alternative schools, how about the Social Chameleon, a person who blends in effortlessly wherever he goes?

If I think of more, I'll be sure to post them.
Daier Mune
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 4 2008, 02:16 AM) *
I'd be more in favor of eliminating martial arts than adding blankity blank arts. The idea that martial arts give you "oooOoo, special powers" is already fairly silly. The system should remain abstract, the more junk you add the harder it is to use and the easier it is to break.


don't think of it as special powers, but as special training. as an example: all four branches of the military train in various firearms, technical skills and physical apdetude, but a SEAL's special training is going to be different from an Airborn Infantry, which is different from a Marine Scout/Sniper.
DireRadiant
Like specializations?
Daier Mune
speciliziations represent a specific focus within a skill, such as a sprinting specialization within the running skill.

a skill group is a number of seperate skills that are represented by a common focus

special training, such as martial arts, are a group of skills that are not immediately linked together. a martial art or a firing stance might teach you about meditation, breath controll, flexibility, as well as the related melee/ranged skill.

i dono, it makes sense to me, but this is obviously house rules and not RAW.
Dr Funfrock
To be honest, my thinking on the whole "Martial arts give you cool stuff" thing is "Yes, yes it does, and that's AWESOME! Now all I want is to give everyone else stuff that's just as awesome."

It's like how Exalted solved the whole game balance thing by going "Hey, combat is really broken and over the top. I know, let's make everything else really broken and over the top, and then it'll all balance out."

We're not looking to do exactly the same thing, because we want to keep everything from actually being either a) ridiculous or b) overpowered, but the idea is simply to make social / vehicle / hacker / whatever characters just as cool as fighters get to be in most games.

Perhaps a better comparison would be Legend of The Five Rings, where courtiers have a school, just like mages or fighters, which defines how they approach their role as a courtier. So Scorpion (sneaky bastich) courtiers are all about lies, deciet, and trickery, whereas Crane (honourable to the point of conceit) courtiers are all about complex webs of favours and friends. This has the effect of making Courtiers seem just as awesomely badass as the Bushi or Yojimbos or whatever. It's possible to have a Five Rings party with three different social characters, each with a completely unique set of advantages and abilities useful in different situations.

Again, the point here is that if you don't like the Martial Arts rules, don't use them. This is just an expansion to the martial arts rules that lets everyone else get in on the game. If you're happy with characters just being defined by skills and specialisations (and there are many, many, many arguments for that being a better way to define characters) then just ignore all of this. You won't find anything of interest here.
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (jklst14 @ Jun 4 2008, 07:59 PM) *
Stare Down
"Do you feel lucky, punk?" The character spends a Complex action to deliver a bad ass one liner accompanied by a cold stare. The character rolls Charisma + Intimidation and is opposed by the Target's Composure with standard intimidation modifiers. If the Character is successful, the target hesitates and loses his next action....

Who is Keyser Soze?
You are a natural liar. Even under pressure, you can think of a great story. When you are being interrogated, you may resist with Con + Charisma instead. If you win, you convince the Interrogator that you are telling the truth. The more net hits you roll, the more outlandish the story may be.


I love these two. consider them added. Perhaps instead of causing lost actions, however, staredown could lower the targets initiative by net hits for the rest of combat due to being scared? They could overcome it with a composure check and a simple action.

Perhaps all of the attribute switching abilities should be maneuvers. That'd pad them out quite a bit, but I'd have to rework the school bonuses some more. Polite hostess and guan-xi should probably be combined anyway.

Back to movement, now that I have my book in front of me, it turns out there is no list of penalties to running beyond "what the GM feels is appropriate." So something worded like "never takes penalty to running for moving through a crowd" is probably best. Maybe a bonus to picking pockets as well? Seems in character.

What we do have is a -2 penalty to any action taken while running except for charge attacks and defense rolls. I think we could have fun removing that penalty for specific tests. Parkour, for instance, takes no penalty to gymnastics checks made while running.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Hide a knife with a smile:

...hey, that's supposed to be my line...well sort of...

Overall I like these particularly the Matrix and Social arts. I can see My little agent Night Angel using a number of the social Manoeuvres, particularly Social Mining and Loose Lips & could also see her learning couple of the Social schools.
Daier Mune
ok, here's some aerial maneuvers that i wrote up today. loosely based off of tactics discussed in a Modern Air Combat book (circa 1980).

-defensive maneuvers-

Break
the basis by wich all airborn maneuvers are based. the defender of an attack banks hard in the direction of the attacker, forcing the attacker to give chase or risk overshooting thier target.
-(close range)
- may be played as an interrupt action
-crash test to move out of firing position and into short range

Split S
after a defender sucssesfully performs a Break, the pilot may chose to further break away from thier attacker. may only be performed on a turn immediately following a Break.
-follow-up to Break
-(short range)
-opposed maneuver roll to disengage from combat/move to long range
-defender recieves a +2 to defensive rolls vs. thier attacker

-offensive-
Barrel Roll Attack
after a defender sucssesfully performs a Break, the pilot can immediately pull up and into a barrel roll, before dropping back down behind the attacker, turning the tables in combat. this is a high-g manuver, and the pilot puts himself at risk of blacking out.
-follow-up to Break
-must make a crash test to succeed & Body + Willpower (3) to remain concous
-if successful, defender is now in an attack position, recieving a +2 to their attack roll vs. thier previous attacker

-positioning-
The Immelmann
the pilot engages a steep climb, rolling as he gains altitude. at the apex of the climb, the pilot banks off the climb in his desired direction. this allows the pilot to perform directional changes as sharp as 90 degrees.
-(any range)
-crash test to change direction to any heading, may select engagement range

Scissors
the Scissors is the natural result of a Break maneuver, with the attacker and the defender banking back and forth as they jockey for position. this maneuver may only be initiated after the defender successfuly performs a Break, but can be performed by either the attacker or the defender. The Scissors often result in a stalemate, forcing both pilots to break away from each other.
-(short range)
-follow-up to Break
-opposed maneuver test between pilots
-loser forced out front (-1 defender), victor in firing position (+1 attacker)
-tie results in both pilots disengaging and moving to long range

-wing maneuvers-
Sandwich
one of the more common team-based maneuvers performed by a fighter wing (2 jets). one pilot allows the enemy to move into an attack position, but then Breaks and sets up the would-be attacker to be attacked in turn.
(short/close range)
-requries one wingman to make a Break action
-may be played as an interrupt action
-both wingmen make manuver rolls
-total successes are added to the next attack made against the aggressor
PlatonicPimp
Another pass at

Social arts

Maneuvers

Retort:
If the character successfully resists an attempt to persuade them socially, they may immediately follow their success up with a similar social roll of their own. Their net successes on the resistance roll are added as bonus dice to this roll.

Social Mining:
The character spends time in a social situation, talking to other people, gossiping, and subtly gathering information. The character smoozes with a social group in a social setting, making a Cha+etiquette check to learn information as per the data search skill on p. 220 BBB

Loose lips:
The character knows how to get someone to let slip information they meant to keep to themselves. During an etiquette or negotiation check, the character may choose to use hits to gather information instead of win the opposed roll. Hits spent this way do not count towards the opposed roll, but instead get the target to reveal specific information during the discourse. Use the target numbers for data search as a guide to how much information is revealed.

Hide a knife with a smile:
The player may hide their violent intent behind open and friendly body language. The character is essentially setting an ambush, only they substitute Con+Charisma on the surprise check

Stare Down:
"Do you feel lucky, punk?" You may, in combat, intimidate an opponent so badly that they hesitate to confront you at all. With a complex action, you deliver an intimidating one liner, break something impressive, or otherwise frighten your opponent with a standard intimidation check. If you succeed, your net hits are subtracted from your target's initiative score.

False confession:
You are a natural liar. Even under pressure, you can think of a great story. When you are being interrogated, you may resist with Con + Charisma instead. If you win, treat your net hits as successes on a con check to lie to the interrogator. The interrogator will be convinced they extracted the information they wanted, but instead they buy your lie.

Polite rebuttal:
You are skilled in politely controlling conversation, allowing you to disagree without causing offense. You may use etiquette in place of negotiation when resisting negotiation and con checks.

Guan-xi:
You know how to mix business with socializing seamlessly. Your friends never feel put apon. You may use etiquette instead of Negotiation when asking for favors or introductions from your contacts.

Fast talk:
By using logical fallacies, "common sense", and other debater tactics, you can make anything sound plausible, at least until the listener thinks about it too hard. You can force your target to use either Intuition or Logic in place of charisma to resist con checks.

Tempting offer:
You know how to craft a lie that people want to believe. By appealing to greed, ego, and other universal traits, you make your lies easier to swallow. You can force your target to use willpower instead of charisma to resist con or negotiation checks.

Give them what they want:
Your keen insight into the minds of other people give you the upper hand in social situations. Before any social check, you may make a judge intentions test against the target. Successes on this test, in addition to the information they provide, also provide bonus dice on your next social check against the target.

Adversarial interactions:
You know how to use subtle forms of intimidation during regular social interaction. By making people uncomfortable you throw them off their game. You can choose to use intimidation in place of negotiation to resist negotiation and con checks.

Social Schools

Cold hand style:
This is the art of casual intimidation. Perfect self control is the hall mark of the style, as those who practice it are self-assured enough to not have to resort to the petty displays of common intimidation.
+1 die to intimidation checks made without resorting to violence.
+1 die to composure checks. (may be taken twice)

Lets make a deal:
The art of knowing what your target wants and offering it to them, for a price...
+1 die on any social check resisted with willpower
+1 die to judge intention checks (may be taken twice)

Carouser:
It's all about the boozing and the whoring.
-The character gains +1 die to social checks when intoxicated. This may be taken twice. The first time essentially cancels out the penalty, the second time provides a net bonus of +1
+1 die to resist addiction.

Everyone's friend: ( need a good synonym for networking!)
The art of using your contact network to it's fullest advantage. Used with the contact rules on p. 280 BBB
+1 die on networking checks
-When asking for a favor, reduce the effective level of the favor by 1.
+1 die to resist judge intentions.

Matrix socialite:
You excel at using social networking software and other matrix tools to keep your social life together and meet new people.
+1 die to social checks when you have access to a person's real online profile.
+1 die on social checks via VR. (can be taken twice)
+1 die on social checks when receiving data from empathy sensor software.

PlatonicPimp
Add to matrix manuveurs:

Matrix Networking:
By searching your friends list online, their friends list, and their friends friends lists, you can often find a way in which you can connect to just about anyone. This works like a networking check (p. 180) except you use your contact's connection rating + your data search skill instead of connection+charisma. The threshold is the same. Technically you don't actually need to involve your contact directly when networking this way, but if you drop their name, it can get back to them. So typically it's considered polite to warn your contact you've spoken with a friend of theirs.
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (Daier Mune @ Jun 5 2008, 03:14 AM) *
ok, here's some aerial maneuvers that i wrote up today. loosely based off of tactics discussed in a Modern Air Combat book (circa 1980).
[snip]

-wing maneuvers-
Sandwich
one of the more common team-based maneuvers performed by a fighter wing (2 jets). one pilot allows the enemy to move into an attack position, but then Breaks and sets up the would-be attacker to be attacked in turn.
(short/close range)
-requries one wingman to make a Break action
-may be played as an interrupt action
-both wingmen make manuver rolls
-total successes are added to the next attack made against the aggressor


The problem with most of those maneuvers is that they are perfectly good descriptions of what goes on when you jockey for position with the normal roll to determine engagement distances. However, I think the teamwork concept of the wing manuveurs has potential. Also, determining if you are in or out of arc is good.

What kind of maneuvers can an aircraft pull off against a groundcraft? What about the opposite?

Lets see, maybe....

Loop:
Aircraft vs aircraft only, close range. The pursued aircraft makes an opposed vehicle check. The loser of this check is now the pursued, and the winner the pursuer.

Arial overwatch:
Aircraft vs. groundcraft only. Long range. When the pursued groundcraft attempts to break away, the aircraft may make a free sensor test. Each hit on this test adds 1 to the threshold for the groundcraft to break away.

Break LOS:
Groundcraft vs aircraft only. Any range. When a groundcraft is pursued by an aircraft, they may attempt to break way at any range by using trees, buildings, and other terrain to provide cover. Make the break away test, but subract the terrain modifier from the threshold instead of adding it.

Hmm. I don't know, even these seem a little iffy to me. I'm looking for things you Cannot currently do under the rules as written. I need to go watch some movies with chase scenes.

Larme
This whole thing is moving away from "martial arts" and moving into Perks like in fallout. I say abandon SR4 and use SPECIAL if you want this many off the wall abilities nyahnyah.gif
jklst14
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jun 4 2008, 07:35 PM) *
I love these two. consider them added. Perhaps instead of causing lost actions, however, staredown could lower the targets initiative by net hits for the rest of combat due to being scared? They could overcome it with a composure check and a simple action.


I think that would work just fine.

I'll admit that I'm still not convinced these should all be Maneuvers rather than standard actions but you're doing good work and I'm glad to help. Here's a few other Social Maneuver ideas.

Wingman
You are adept at helping your friends accomplish their social goals, whether it is picking up women or conducting an interrogation. You may assist any social roll made by one of your friends, as long as you possess the appropriate skill.

Dismiss
AKA Talk to the hand. You have a way of blowing off criticism and ignoring the attacks of others. You may roll Composure to resist Intimidation rolls.

Oratory
You are a great public speaker. When speaking to a group, you may use your Leadership skill instead of Con

Master Debater
You are excellent debater. You may use Leadership instead of Negotiation during attempts at Bargaining.
Daier Mune
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 4 2008, 10:48 PM) *
This whole thing is moving away from "martial arts" and moving into Perks like in fallout.


you say that like its a bad thing.
Nigel
I certainly hope these ideas get more widespread and developed - I love the social maneuvers so far.

You just gave me an idea, Larme. SR in SPECIAL? Hmm...just to determine skills.
jklst14
Another idea for a social maneuver:

Cunning Linguist
For you, the language of love is universal. You may ignore the language skill cap on social skills for Seduction rolls.
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 5 2008, 03:48 AM) *
This whole thing is moving away from "martial arts" and moving into Perks like in fallout. I say abandon SR4 and use SPECIAL if you want this many off the wall abilities nyahnyah.gif


I'll do you one worse. You know what my initial inspiration to do this was? Feats from the game that causes cancer.
VagabondStar
For "Combat Arts" here's a technique you could try incorporating:

Close Quarters Battle
+1 Dice Pool For targets within 15 meters
+1 Dice Pool For Initiative Upon "Making Entry" into a room
+1 Dice Pool For Employing Stun Grenades prior to entry into a room
Reduce Penalties for firing on targets using Cover and/or Concealment (like hostages) by 1 within 15 meters
Fleinhoy
I have to say I agree to a certain extent with Larme here, but I think for slightly different reasons.
Let me explain:

Martial arts do not give you any kind of super powers, but what they do give is a clear edge over someone who just brawls randomly. Using the martial arts system in Sadowrun lends different edges to the different styles, and as an experienced martial artist with first hand knowledge of a few different styles and second hand knowledge of many more, I say this is accurate.

There is no "ultimate" style that is better than others, but they convey different advantages, and if these strengths are played to it can give a very welcome advantage.

Now to why I do not see the point in what you are trying to do here (please don't get me wrong, though, I like many of the suggestions):

I see this kind of thing as a vicious spiral in gaming. The original martial arts system may have been added for colour, realism, fun, or just because some of the developers may have a passion for martial arts.

What this leads to, however, as this thread seems to very effectively prove, is that once a certain type of character gets something, players will want to add something similar to their characters as well, often going over the top. It reminds me too much of the cancer causing game, where balance and real, as well as imagined, faults in the system are constantly being "fixed" by adding feats, new special abilities and doo-dads.

I've used the martial arts rules for 3rd ed, and was not sure if I liked adding something as specific as that to a relatively abstract system, adding more and more things like this is something I'd be very careful about, though, lest the game becomes an unplayable quagmire.
Mx
QUOTE (Fleinhoy @ Jun 26 2008, 01:37 PM) *
What this leads to, however, as this thread seems to very effectively prove, is that once a certain type of character gets something, players will want to add something similar to their characters as well, often going over the top. It reminds me too much of the cancer causing game, where balance and real, as well as imagined, faults in the system are constantly being "fixed" by adding feats, new special abilities and doo-dads.


Except none of these are over the top and their pretty expencive to get, especially after chargen( 5BP/10karma for one bonus and 2BP/4karma per manauver)

You don't get them for free like in the cancer causing game.
Fleinhoy
Very true so far, Mäx, but what I was getting at might not have been entirely clear:

From my experience with these bitwise improvements to character powers and skills they tend to spiral out of controll. Now we have the Drivers, the Martial artists, and the Talkers, then comes the Gunbunnies. After that the Martial artists feel put upon, and demand even more kick-arse (no pun intended) abilites, leading to the Talkers, Gunbunnies and Drivers also wishing a new upgrade and so on and so on....

Keep this up for a while, and you have what can be techincally classifed as a mess.
Dr Funfrock
But as you've just pointed out yourself, the martial rules don't really "power up" melee, they just diversify it. This is applying the same reasoning to everything. Why is it that fighters are allowed to have small advantages that can be made really worth while when they think tactically and play to their strengths, but everyone else limited to using the same set of standard skills?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Fleinhoy @ Jun 27 2008, 05:31 AM) *
Keep this up for a while, and you have what can be techincally classifed as -a mess- Rifts.


You had a misspelling up there. Fixed it for you.
AngelisStorm
Parkour

Advantages: +1 die to non-dodge gymnastics checks (may be taken twice); +1 die to climbing checks; or +1 die to running checks

Maneuvers:

Break Fall: May add double your gymnastics skill to resist falling damage.

Jumping Charge: May make a gymnastics [3] check to gain the superior position bonus in addition to the normal charging bonus.

Wall Run: When making an unassisted climbing check, if the character can get a running start they may substitute a run skill check during the first interval, gaining distance as per the unassisted climbing rules. This can then be immediately followed by a jump check, adding that distance as well. Finally the character must make a climb check [threshold 1-4] to catch a handhold (or fall). Further climbing checks are made as normal.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012