 REALLY basic newb questions, combat, general, etc. |
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 Dec 15 2003, 07:06 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,873  |
i am a near-complete newb to tabletop rpgs. i've always loved the SR universe, and i came to be familiar with it through reading the novels.
i came really close to being able to join a group for some SR gaming during the upcoming semester of school. however, due to class changes the would-be GM cannot run the game. problem is, i've gotten really into it. so into it that i now have ambitions of GMing a SR game with hardly any experience. i bought most of the books, and i've been reading them. my first question may seem pretty dumb to you veteran and long-time RPGers. ok, after reading a ton of SR3 and going through the combat rules, i decided to do some tests between two archetype characters (meaning only i was sitting at the table throwing dice for combat, trying to get the hang of it). i did get the hang of it. i understand initiatives, dodge rolls, staging damage, modifiers, etc. what snagged me is this: when does the combat begin? when do characters roll initiative? and, perhaps more generally, how is combat initiated? for example, let's say i'm running a game and one of my players decides to attack someone. ok...so does he automatically go first for initiating the attack? let's say his initiative is really low...does the NPC he's attacking get to go first? do i announce, "the troll sees you reach for your gun." and begin the trolls combat phase instead of the player's? how do you go from just walking around a Stuffer Shack to combat turns? i could understand if the GM always initiates combat, then it's just "roll for initiative.", add details, etc. but what if you see a baddie walking around that you NEED to shoot, but he has higher initiative than you do. and if it's the case that he DOES get to go first, what about snipers? or do you use Surprise rules in this situation? i'm sure this is a really general question and could apply to many rpgs. i had honestly never thought about it until tonight. can someone give me a really brief combat walkthrough? i'll play the PC if you want. or, at least, direct me to a walkthrough of standard SR3 combat. i've searched the threads and the net with no real success. i'd love to do a food fight run-through over the net because it seems like a good one to start with, and i am thinking of starting my players with it. thanks. |
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Dec 15 2003, 07:18 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
Generally I rule if you're not surprised or caught flat footed, you roll initiative. If someone sneaks up on you, surprise roll. If you're sniped, oh well. But if someone is walking around nearby and pulls a gun, roll. If you're lucky, you'll roll higher, quickdraw, and kill him. If not, well, keep a spare character around. :D
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Dec 15 2003, 07:24 AM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I think that's the most logical thing to do, and what most if not all GMs here would do. So if a character decides to attack someone with a holstered pistol... If the person he is attacking, or any other NPC that might react to this in a significant way, sees this (Perception Roll if not obvious), roll a Surprise/Reaction test to see who gets to act. Then roll Initiative to see who goes first. Someone who has his weapon ready to fire, just waiting for the shot to line up well (for example a sniper, or just some guy behind a corner ready to squeeze a few round into whoever comes) gets a -2TN on the Reaction test, which often allows a character with an inferior Initiative to act first. Of course, if the other target doesn't notice that someone is attacking him/her (failed Perception roll, common if this is a sniper-scenario), you don't need a Surprise or an Initiative test until after the first shot has landed, or whatever draws the target's (or someone else's who might react significantly) attention to the fact that something is seriously wrong. Personally, I'd give anyone who initiates an attack without the target expecting it -2 TN on the Surprise test, and usually +1 TN to anyone who is walking into an ambush. So if Joe Secguard is waiting inside a room with only one exit (a closed door) with his trusty Ares Predator pointed at the door, and suddenly Bob the Streetsammy barges in (knowing there might be someone in there, but nothing more), Joe would roll Reaction vs TN 2 while Bob would roll Reaction vs TN 5, almost certainly allowing Joe to act first unless Bob has Wired-3 + Reaction Enhancers-6.
EEK! Other Game allusion! |
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Dec 15 2003, 07:25 AM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,873 |
so if one of my players is down the aisle from an NPC that he knows is up to no good, and he decides to pull a gun on him and take him out before trouble can really start...should i have the NPC do a perception test or something to determine if he notices my player pull the gun? then roll initiative if he does? or should i just have them roll, and use that to justify seeing the player pull the gun?
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Dec 15 2003, 07:28 AM
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#5
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
The surprise rules are on p. 109, SR3. They cover the situation you're describing.
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Dec 15 2003, 07:32 AM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'd put in a Surprise test in there between the Perception test and the Initiative rolling, but I guess that's just personal opinion. It won't change the outcome much, since the person who has higher Reaction probably has higher Initiative as well (except in the case of effects that increase Initiative dice only, like certain spells or ware), but I like the sense of completeness that it brings. After all, if someone pulls a gun at you while you're browsing the goods at Stuffer Shack, you're probably at least slightly surprised. Unless it is absolutely certain that Mr UpToNoGood would notice the gun anyway, roll Perception. So if a player pulls a gun to his face, you can skip the Perception test... But if it is possible that the drawn gun might go unnoticed, roll it. |
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Dec 15 2003, 07:35 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,873 |
thanks. i read the surprise rules a few times. and i've just read them again. it was still a little murky. it describes an ambush-type situation. i just mean if someone pulls a gun on someone not expecting it.
also, along the same lines, what if i want to shoot someone in the back? i assume it would go down much like the sniper situation Austere described--perception test. and if failed, no need to even roll initiative until after the first shot? |
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Dec 15 2003, 07:38 AM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,873 |
btw....wow, these are great, informative replies! and so quickly. thanks guys!
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Dec 15 2003, 07:40 AM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Well, yeah, unless there's someone else around that might get upset, I'd go with rolling Perception for the target first. If he succeeds at that, roll Surprise and then Initiative. If he fails the Perception, I'd give the char who's doing the shooting 1 action for free, then roll Surprise and Initiative (you probably won't need a Perception at this point, since most people will notice getting shot in the back -- heavily armored cybertrolls with Pain Editors set to nullification are an exception to the rule). |
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Dec 15 2003, 07:53 AM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Surprise! Meet My Gun! ;) Everyone rolls reaction, base target number of 4. You, as the GM, get to apply modifiers as you see fit. You should give an advantage (by lowering his number to 3 or 2) to the guy drawing the gun because the other guy wasn't expecting it. Then you roll initiative as normal. Whoever loses the reaction roll loses his first action, so the person who wins goes first no matter what. Then you keep doing initiative and combat turns as normal. So its: Roll perception, if necessary Roll reaction for each person Roll initiative for each person Ignore the first action for the guy who loses the reaction roll. He doesn't get an action on the first initiative pass. It gets more complicated with groups, but that should cover your two-man scenario. |
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Dec 15 2003, 07:57 AM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 15-December 03 Member No.: 5,902 |
It REALLY depends on the situation here. Take the hypothetical example the original poster made. If both characters are aware of each other, and both are "on their guard", then I would say a surprise roll is not waranted at all. If Gunman A decides to draw down on Gunman B - initiating combat in the process - and then B proceeds to beat A on initiative, then that is just a case of B spotting A making his move, but then beating A to the draw. Nobody is surprised here, the guy starting the combat is just slower than his opponent. It happens - especially in a world of cyber modified reflexes.
Now if there is a back shot involved, or if one opponent has absolutely no idea that his opponent bears him any malice (because of a blown Perception roll or a ruling by the GM), then yeah roll for surprise. It's very much a question of the situation. |
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Dec 15 2003, 01:26 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Alla the old high noon western shoot out. For me here's what i would do. If one (or more) people are prepared in waiting and the target fails his perception roll (Tn's Based on the snipers stealth roll). Ie a sniper situation. The sniper gets 1 action target gets no Combat Pool. If the target is still up and around roll for iniative. (the targets first action will either be run for cover (if trained) or perception check). If the situation is Runner team A walks around corner right into Corp Sec team B. Then roll for suprise. If However the situtaion is more like what happens at the end of Enemy of the state, Then i would Get everyone rolling for suprise when the Goverment goon gets everyones attention, with grandpa with the shotgun getting -2 Tn's (Cos he saw government goon, who in turn failed to spot grandpa). Hope that helps. |
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Dec 15 2003, 03:56 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
We also use d20s to hit. It makes achieving those high TNs a little bit easier. :D |
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Dec 15 2003, 03:57 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 15-December 03 Member No.: 5,902 |
I don't know that Runner team A needs to roll for surprise. They are on a site illegally. Obviously they're first impulse is going to be to shoot anything that moves. I am sure that surprise situations happen like that sometime (Han Solo in the Death Star comes to mind) but that should be so really rare as to make me not really bother rolling for it as a rule. Corp Sec team B needs to roll for surprise of course, as long as the alarm hasn't been raised. If it has, then they are in the same situation as Runners A. |
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Dec 15 2003, 04:17 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Well then we simply disagree. No problem there, the rules aren't exactly clear on what constitutes a "Surprise" and what doesn't, so it's basically up the GM in any case. I roll Surprise even when someone fully expects to be attacked, but doesn't know where from -- like the example I gave about Bob Streetsammy barging into a room with Joe Secguard inside -- if only because giving Joe a Held Action and thus allowing him to act first no matter what would pretty much be the only alternative, and that might be a bit too mean (and unrealistic). I don't mind if other people don't, that's up to them. It's basically a question of how überpowerful do you want high-init guys to be (they'll be überpowerful anyway, but you still get to tune them with little adjustments like these). |
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Dec 15 2003, 09:54 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 12-September 03 Member No.: 5,613 |
Short Rules of thumb that I use.
Both parties aware of one another:Roll initiative One party making an agressive move the other suspiscious: surprise check, everyone in attacking party gets initiative. Both parties surprised and agressive to one another (Unexpectedly opening a door on an unsuspecting security team.): Surprise check, its a big mess, possible for people on both sides to do nothing. One party taking agressive action on completely unsuspecting party. (shooting someone from afar, sneaking up on someone asleep or oblivious) Free Action, followed by regular initiative for all, if anyone is left alive to react. The thing that will happen most in a new game will be just regular inititive. I would just stick with rolling straight Initiative until your players actually plan an ambush, then explain the surprise rules. |
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Dec 16 2003, 06:02 AM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 15-December 03 Member No.: 5,902 |
Coolness :) |
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