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> Extraterritoriality., What is means to me.
Thanos007
post Dec 15 2003, 05:15 PM
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Extraterritoriality! What is it good for? Absolutly nothin'!

Just kidding. I was just rereading an old thread
QUOTE
Extraterritoriality. How far does it go?
It was pretty interesting but devolved in to why would any government give corps extaterritoriality. I thought the thread (and this one too) should have delt with what exactly is it and how does it work? Is is some sort of fedual system with compleat autonomy for those at the top? "What? Your late with the Jones account!" Branch manager pulls out gun and shoots offending executive. "Miss. Tessmacher. Have some one clean this mess in my office up at once!" And no one blinks an eye. Or is it something less? Or, heaven help us, more?

How do You handle it?

Thanks

Thanos

P.S. spell check doesn't seem to be working so my spelling is going to be worse than usuall.
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Tanka
post Dec 15 2003, 05:22 PM
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The Corp rules apply, not the government. This does not mean "no rules," otherwise there would be mass chaos anytime a coworker did not like somebody.

Basically, the Corp is a government with its own rules and regulations, and is only held responsible for something if it crosses into a zone that is not their own.

The only higher power than a Corp inside of the Corp zone is the Corporate Court.

Corporate Shadowfiles has a lot of good information on it all.
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BitBasher
post Dec 15 2003, 05:38 PM
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But, if the corp laws were written so that murder is illegal except in the case where a corp official of <x> rank or higher is in cirumstance <y>. Then yes, there may be circumstances in which he can theoretically shoot a coworker in the head legally. Its phenominally unlikely the laws are structured that way though.

Essentially the law can work any way the corp wants it to work on their own extraterritorial property. You have no rights there except what the corp grant you.
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Thanos007
post Dec 15 2003, 06:01 PM
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Ok. So runner x breaks in to corp y. Gets caught and then is subject to the corps laws. Got that. But... (and you knew there'd be one didn't you) is there nothing anyone can do about it? Hell does the corp even have to report it to some one else that it even happened?

As a side note, what are the best books to get to understand this whole corp thing anyway?

Thanks

Thanos
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Tanka
post Dec 15 2003, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (Thanos007)
Ok. So runner x breaks in to corp y. Gets caught and then is subject to the corps laws. Got that. But... (and you knew there'd be one didn't you) is there nothing anyone can do about it? Hell does the corp even have to report it to some one else that it even happened?

As a side note, what are the best books to get to understand this whole corp thing anyway?

Thanks

Thanos

Nope, the only thing that can be done is to have the media make a huge report about it. Enough backlash and the Corp won't do anything, or their already-plummeting stock prices will drop further. Lower stock prices means it's easier for a takeover, because a greedy Corp can simply buy it all up and then hold a majority on the council.

The best book, as I said earlier (:P), is Corporate Shadowfiles. It lays down everything from Corp Scrip to Corp Court. It's well worth it, trust me.
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FlakJacket
post Dec 15 2003, 06:45 PM
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Why would there be a backlash? Some street-scum criminal got breaking into a coroporate building and got busted by security. I doubt it'd got more than even a passing mention. Besides, the corps control all the mainsream media anyway.
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Tanka
post Dec 15 2003, 06:50 PM
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Sometimes there can be a spin put on it enough that there would be a backlash.

Besides, if all media is Corp-controlled, who's to say the Corp that hired Runner Joe isn't spouting drivel over the media it controls to make a dent in their stocks?
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BitBasher
post Dec 15 2003, 06:58 PM
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Because reporting that woudl indicate they had info on the run, which defeats the point of hiring undeniable assets in the first palce. It's unlikely anything like that would EVER be reported anyway. Reporting a break in undermines the morale of employees.
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Tanka
post Dec 15 2003, 07:04 PM
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This is very true. How about this?

Corp A hired Runner Joe and his chummers to hit Corp B. Corp B catches the group, then throws them in separeate cells. Corp A decides to leak the info, highly anonymously, to Corp C, who is currently trying to take Corp B over. Corp C uses its media to blacklabel Corp B, thusly hurting its stocks so that they can buy them up.

Besides, aren't most medias owned by Corps usually under very deep throngs of other subCorps that make it very difficult to find out what really belongs to who?
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spotlite
post Dec 15 2003, 07:16 PM
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If the person held was a citizen of a local government, or heaven forbid a government operative, that government may attempt extradition, if they have such an agreement with the corp. And if they find out about it. Lone Star have extradition agreements in principle to stop people hopping over a corp hedge and sticking their finger up at them, and generally the corps stick to it unless they have a vested interest because if they won't co-operate, the Star (who the public view as the boys in blue, remember) will kick up a media stink so high they'll be smelling it in Z-O. But since the Star is a corp, they'll only do that if they have a big interest in getting the perp. Ah, corp politics, you gotta love it!

EDIT: Lone Star SOMETIMES have those kind of agreements, sorry. And when they do, its when they have the contract for local law enforcement. In places where KE has the contract, they would have the contract instead. Just thought I'd clarify!
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Dende
post Dec 15 2003, 07:24 PM
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Being as a Corp acts as a government, a fully autonomous government, and if has true extra territoarility, then is entitled to every right a government has, including self-governing...

I do find it hard to believe(though I may be way off here) there wouldn't be some sort of governing body, like the International Court of Justice now, a UN funded organization to make sure governments obey international laws. I would think Corps would have something similiar, they would just act as governments and be at the same table.

In my eyes, corps would still have to give basic human rights, etc etc. Mind you many governments now, and I would presume Corps in the future would probably have secret transgresions now and then. But if a media story broke, I can assure you if such a body exists, then there is no corp gonna be dumb enough to straight up and off the guy.

Not having enough knowledge myself, I assume someone else knows whether such a body/council/court exists. On that note, is a UN type body around in general?
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Sahandrian
post Dec 15 2003, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE (Dende)
I would think Corps would have something similiar, they would just act as governments and be at the same table.

The corporate court.
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Velocity
post Dec 15 2003, 08:40 PM
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Please remember that I'm talking about the MEGAcorps here, not every little company on the block. Also, (as others have mentioned), reading pages 16-21 of Corporate Shadowfiles would answer all of these questions.
QUOTE
Dende wrote:
In my eyes, corps would still have to give basic human rights, etc etc.

They don't. Megacorps (AAA-rated members of the Corporate Court) are completely sovereign entities. They--like contemporary nation-states, I might add--accord individuals in their territory whatever "rights" and "privileges" they like and what the corp giveth, the corp can taketh away.

Thinking of megacorps in terms of 20th-century nation-states is inaccurate; think of them more as feudal domains and you're closer to the truth. There is NO Universal Declaration of Human Rights, there is NO body to which one can appeal and there is NO justice beyond what the megacorp decides is justice.

QUOTE
Dende wrote:
Mind you many governments now, and I would presume Corps in the future would probably have secret transgresions now and then.

Now and then?? *sputter* Hussein was on the US payroll for 15 YEARS, man. They only caught his ass 'cause he wasn't paying taxes on the US funds the CIA paid him throughout the 70s, 80s and early 90s.

[EDIT]As for Shadowrun... BitBasher's bang-on: the entire game is premised on the the daily existence of "secret transgressions." Shadowrunners are, by definition, secret transgressors.[/EDIT]

QUOTE
Dende wrote:
But if a media story broke, I can assure you if such a body exists, then there is no corp gonna be dumb enough to straight up and off the guy.

Actually, that's exactly what could happen. The Corporate Court will ALWAYS side with the megas--why? Simple: because Corporate Court justices are MEGACORPORATE EMPLOYEES. Although they may squabble amongst themselves (fr'instance, the Aztechnology justice and the Ares justice probably don't get along real well), the fact is that when someone takes a poke at them collectively they close ranks faster than a police officer's union.
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BitBasher
post Dec 15 2003, 08:50 PM
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QUOTE
Corp A hired Runner Joe and his chummers to hit Corp B. Corp B catches the group, then throws them in separeate cells. Corp A decides to leak the info, highly anonymously, to Corp C, who is currently trying to take Corp B over. Corp C uses its media to blacklabel Corp B, thusly hurting its stocks so that they can buy them up.
Well, Corp A has legally (according to their laws) arrested and imprisoned criminals. Yay. Nothing wrong with that. Corp B doesn't have any damaging info. There's nothing wrong with that. Besides, in the media Shadowrunners are universally the bad guys, criminals. Theres no widespread public support for them. Corp A could spin this to the positive by showing "Look how good our security is, we stop shadowrunners. We keep areas safe for you."

QUOTE
Corps in the future would probably have secret transgresions now and then
<sips coffee> <SPEWs COFFE ON MONITOR> BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA. "Now and then?" You mean like the entire shadow community? Millions upon millions of Nuyen a year for that exact purpose? Heh!
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Playing Games
post Dec 15 2003, 09:52 PM
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<sips coffee> <SPEWs COFFE ON MONITOR> BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA. "Now and then?" You mean like the entire shadow community? Millions (really means Billions) upon millions(Billions)of Nuyen a year for that exact purpose? Heh!
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Dec 16 2003, 03:04 AM
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QUOTE (Dende @ Dec 15 2003, 01:24 PM)
In my eyes, corps would still have to give basic human rights, etc etc. Mind you many governments now, and I would presume Corps in the future would probably have secret transgresions now and then. But if a media story broke, I can assure you if such a body exists, then there is no corp gonna be dumb enough to straight up and off the guy.

Wow.

You do realize that in the U.S. the government (Federal, state, local, whatever) can and has contracted with corporations specifically to escape from the legal niceties that it is required to give under the Constitution--niceties such as Due Process. And while right now it applies to property and liberty interests, the Seretech and Shiawase decisions effectively gave them a pass on the "life" interest as well when it allowed them to keep armed personnel for the purposes of killing people on their property--and the government can't do a damn thing about it.

Even the UCAS doesn't exactly give a lot (any?) of Due Process to the SINless (nor does the US to illegals).

Of course, this is a world in which signing the UN Declaration of the Rights of Man is a formality, but of the 197 countries that are part of the UN... How many of them actually follow it? Why the Hell would corporations--those bastions of human rights and decency--want to even acknowledge the existence of human rights? Who's going to say anything? The media... Oh, wait. Like it's been mentioned, the corps own the media.
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toturi
post Dec 16 2003, 03:17 AM
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Got some questions. What happens when duly accredited corp representative A from Corp A (ie diplomat) shoots poor dumb worker B of Corp B in Corp B territory? What happens if Rex(Tir Prince) goes to Quebec and is wasted by a duly licensed bounty hunter?
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Tanka
post Dec 16 2003, 03:24 AM
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In the case of the Corp, Corp B has the right to do whatever their laws at the time of the event allow. Corp A can, if they so choose, take it to Corporate Court.

In the case of the Tir Prince, the bounty hunter in Quebec is most likely going to have some severe punishment handed to him by Quebec officials. If not, then the Tir will do something about, most likely involving the Ghosts or some other group.
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toturi
post Dec 16 2003, 12:01 PM
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So if Mr Aztech Corp Ambassador does blood magic on UCAS soil, he gets thrown into jail? I don't think so. At worst he gets PNGed.

You know, extraterritoriality means your accredited representatives ie diplomats are immuned to criminal proceedings in the host country.

And the Quebec bounty hunter was perfectly within his rights to hunt a sasquatch and legally the Quebec authorities can't do nuts to him. And have to respond severely to any intrusion on their sovereignty by Tir agents.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Dec 16 2003, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE
And the Quebec bounty hunter was perfectly within his rights to hunt a sasquatch and legally the Quebec authorities can't do nuts to him. And have to respond severely to any intrusion on their sovereignty by Tir agents


Quite true, but i'll put money on there being somekind of legal debate, if only to appease another nation. Loyears (i can't spell so sue me :D ) no both sides will be looking for the loop holes. Then debating if the political stink will be worth it.

What will mostly likely end up happening is the said bounty hunter will have an accident or will disappear.
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Tanka
post Dec 16 2003, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE (toturi)
So if Mr Aztech Corp Ambassador does blood magic on UCAS soil, he gets thrown into jail? I don't think so. At worst he gets PNGed.

You know, extraterritoriality means your accredited representatives ie diplomats are immuned to criminal proceedings in the host country.

And the Quebec bounty hunter was perfectly within his rights to hunt a sasquatch and legally the Quebec authorities can't do nuts to him. And have to respond severely to any intrusion on their sovereignty by Tir agents.

Actually, no. Why do you think Azzies only do Blood Magic in Aztlan? If they're found out, they're just as vulnerable to the law as any UCAS citizen is. True, there'd be a huge political backlash and threats of war, but when aren't there?

As for your example with Rex, I'm pretty sure Sasquatches have been taken off the "hunt" list now. IIRC, they've been made into "sentient" beings now, so Rex wouldn't be shot. :D
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Backgammon
post Dec 16 2003, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE (tanka)
Actually, no. Why do you think Azzies only do Blood Magic in Aztlan? If they're found out, they're just as vulnerable to the law as any UCAS citizen is. True, there'd be a huge political backlash and threats of war, but when aren't there?


No, there wouldn't, because that Azzies won't admit to Blood Magic, most people in governement do not know what blood magic is, and the public is totally incapable of understanding blood magic. A confirmed Blood Magician, if not *offically* in the country (like say on a secret mission), would simply be covertly captured or killed, while an official dignatary might be able to escape that fate just cause he's in the spotlight.
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BitBasher
post Dec 16 2003, 04:53 PM
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Okay, just to make a point that most people get ass backwards. ONLY THE USA gives diplomatic immunity IRL. Foreign countries do not always return that favor and nor do they have to. There is absolutely no reason that in SR any and I mean *ANY* "diplomat" would have any kind of immunity whatsoever. A representative of one corp or country is afforded NO special rights because of a position.

"Diplomatic Immunity" Is the bullshit of movies and fiction.

Noone can claim "Diplomatic Immunity" from a corp, because corps have no obligation to recognize anything of the sort. I believe the UCAS still does that but I have no proof of that in canon. It's a bullshit sentiment. Commit a crime in SR and nothing will protect you, certainly not some political position or status.

God forbid you commit a crime and DID manage diplomatic immunity in the UCAS someone would hire as SR and just have to offed. period. There's an entire subculture market for that exact sort of action.
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Backgammon
post Dec 16 2003, 05:02 PM
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Where are you getting this information from, Bit? Here in Canada we had not too long ago a pissed-drunk Russian diplomat that killed someone in a car accident, and he could not be prosecuted, just sent back home.

Although I do completely agree with you on the no diplomatic immunity in SR. It's ridiculous. Of course, that doesn't mean in a big wig CEO does something nasty that he's gonna get arrested. That's political pressure, which is not the same as immunity.
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Nath
post Dec 16 2003, 05:37 PM
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Diplomatic Immunity have been around since the Ancient Greek City States, and widely applied. That's an international common law, though some local laws and finally the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations put it on paper.

There are many car accidents and "cultural attaché" caught spying story in nearly every country you could think of. Recently the Angolan government made French business man Pierre Falcone a citizen and its ambassador to the UNICEF, effectively blocking the legal procedures launched against him for past illegal arm sales to... Angola.
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