 Skillwires, Viable character option? |
  |
 Dec 16 2003, 07:40 PM
Post
#26
|
|||
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638  |
But this still doesn't necessarily obivate the need for a chip to be physically inserted in the 'jack. So if you rule that a skillsoft program in headware is identical to a skillsoft program on chip (despite canon indicating otherwise), then the headware image should be able to function identically to a physical chip. Otherwise, the argument could be made that whatever part of the skillsoft program that is chip-only is somehow required for the CED to function. Hence, the qualifier "encoded on the chip" in the CED description. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Dec 16 2003, 07:43 PM
Post
#27
|
|
|
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
I see it this way: You can port a chip to memory, but it loses some integrity. You can already port an installer from a CD to your HDD, and it works almost exactly alike. There are a few nuances that only the most trained would notice, but for the most part, it's all the same.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 16 2003, 07:55 PM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Then I guess you can't use Headware Memory at all with Skillwires, as the description for Skillwires also specifically state that they interact with "specially designed optical chips."
I'm sorry, this is really a silly, silly argument. There is nothing to suggest that it can't be done or, god forbid, that it is in any way unbalancing whatsoever. Let's see, a Rating 6 standard ActiveSoft takes up 108 Mp. To run two of those from Headware Memory you have to blow 0.72 Essence and 32,400 nuyen for the Headware Memory alone, not including the Router or Datajack you need to route it to the CED. Now let's say you're using a Skillsoft Jukebox for the exact same thing; two 108 Mp ports cost you 4,320 nuyen and -0- Essence. No Router or Datajack required. And god forbid you want to juggle between more than two 'softs with Headware Memory. Oh, how horribly unbalanced! The world's surely coming to an end now! Hell, for the same price as that Headware Memory you can have a Skillsoft Jukebox that supports 15 Activesofts of the same rating... and you didn't need to lose 0.72 Essence. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 16 2003, 08:02 PM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
Sarcasm... just another service provided by the good doctor.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 16 2003, 08:05 PM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Yes, you CAN Route Headware mem to a CED. That's the entire purpose behind a Router. Do you honestly think there's anything you could put on the tiny tube that makes up a Chipjack that could not also be mirrored in HeadMem? Seriously, you're throwing away the definition of a Router when you say you can't do that.
Sphynx |
|
|
|
|
Dec 16 2003, 08:37 PM
Post
#31
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
Yes - the part of the skillsoft that is required to make a clean, uncorrupted copy. Whatever it is (hardware or software), it's only found on the chip, and apparently can't be duplicated in memory alone. Not that I'm disagreeing with you guys... I'm fine with routers connecting to headware, CEDs, cybertoasters, etc. I'm just pointing out that, like most other things in SR, interpretations can vary. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 16 2003, 08:38 PM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
And like previously mentioned, the entry for Skillwires specifically mentions that it gets its information from those same, optically-encoded skillsofts. So, naturally, based upon that phrasing headware memory can't be used in anyway whatsoever with skillwires -- as it specifically states that it requires the skillsofts. And that's just silly logic.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 16 2003, 10:50 PM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
What keeps you from routing your headware memory to multiple CEDs, thereby gaining assloads of dice?
I'm with Spooky. The CED is specific in that it works with the skill on a chip; after all, it's a chipjack enhancement. Skillwires aren't a fair comparison because they even mention buying a chipjack "and/or" memory in their description. It is obviously intended that they be usable with headware memory. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 16 2003, 11:03 PM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The same thing that stops you from routing multiple Chipjacks with CEDs together -- nothing except the GM putting their foot down (and the new errata that says the maximum rating, and logically the maximum benefit, from a CED is a Task Pool of 3). And sorry, they'd still be reading from the chip in that case, so even that rather weak argument wouldn't help out there.
You guys really need to read up on Routers, too. You don't route parts of an implant to other implants, you route the entire implant. For instance, you route a Chipjack, a Cybereye, or a Cyberarm to another implant, not a Chipjack Expert Driver, or Thermographic Vision (unless it was just a reticle implant and not an accessory to a Cybereye), or a Cyberlimb Cyberdeck. But as the usual comments goes -- play it however you like in your game. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 16 2003, 11:37 PM
Post
#35
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
That's what I meant. You could circumvent the maximum benefit of 3 by allowing routers to work in that fashion. For this reason I don't think that it's intended, so I stick to canon. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 16 2003, 11:56 PM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Err, no you can't. You can do that no more than you can double the benefit of, say, Vision Magnification 3 by routing it to another Vision Magnification 3. Just like you can't route two Skillwire systems with an ASIST rating of 4 together to run a single Rating 8 ActiveSoft. You can't install two sets of Wired Reflexes 2, route them together, and expect to get +8/+4D6 to your Reaction/Initiative, either.
In fact, none of the implants that I'm aware of "stack" in that fashion whatsoever, so there's no grounds to believe that it would work that way with multiple Chipjacks and CEDs. So yes, I stick to canon as well instead of making up stuff to rationalize a house rule that makes no sense to begin with (either in-game or meta-game). Routers allow you to route Headware Memory to a Chipjack with a CED installed, and thus gain the benefits thereof. That's what Routers do. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 16 2003, 11:59 PM
Post
#37
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
The description also states (SR3, p.301):
So it clearly interacts with memory, just as much as it does with OCC chips. No similar statement appears anywhere for the CED description. Furthermore, SR3, p. 296:
It explicitly states that skillwires can interact with skillsofts loaded into headware memory, regardless of the existence of a chipjack or datajack. Again, no such exemption appears in the Chipjack Expert Driver's description (nor anywhere else for that matter). There is nothing in the CED's description to suggest that it interacts solely with the software side of a skillsoft. The fact that it is called a Chipjack Expert Driver, and not a Skillsoft Expert Driver actually lends support to the idea that it is more closely tied to hardware than software. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Dec 17 2003, 12:06 AM
Post
#38
|
||||
|
Guests |
Since when did shadowrunners care about DRM? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 17 2003, 12:16 AM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Besides, a simple Electronics B/R (I believe) test can erradicate copy protection on a Skillsoft. I believe it's mentioned in the Cannon Companion somewhere, in fact.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 17 2003, 12:20 AM
Post
#40
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
That's great, but it still doesn't eliminate the need for a chip to be inserted in the chipjack first. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 17 2003, 12:31 AM
Post
#41
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
I couldn't find it in C&C, but yeah, I've read something like that as well (maybe in Matrix?). In the books I have on hand, the closest thing I could find was Cracking in SOTA:2063. It only talks about cracking software, not hardware, tho'. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 17 2003, 02:02 AM
Post
#42
|
|
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Actually I believe its physically impossible to copy softs like that IIRC.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 17 2003, 06:11 AM
Post
#43
|
|||||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Except that there's nothing to get around as you're relying on a house rule. If there was some special magical code secretly encoded on a Skillsoft, the Skillsoft itself would cost extra -- just like it does when you get the DIMAP option encoded onto it. The price would also be more expensive than a standard Skillsoft that didn't have this non-existant magical code that you're houseruling, as it wouldn't be necessary in the vast majority of 'softs. The Chipjack Expert Driver makes the Chipjack itself more efficient, just like the description for the implant states. Whether that Skillsoft is coming from a chip plugged directly into the Chipjack, from a chip plugged into a Skillsoft Jukebox which is plugged into the Chipjack, or from the exact same information the Chipjack (modified by the CED, mind you!) downloaded into Headware Memory and then routed right back to the Chipjack; it's all the same. Once again, this is the entire point of a Router and one of the few bonified uses that actually merits its cost. Tossing it away for what amounts to completely nonsensical reasons (I still haven't seen a valid reason by anyone as to why it's even close to being a significant issue outside of hard-headedness), is just... lame. But, as always, feel free to do what you like in your game. Just don't expect everyone else to enjoy your house ruling or accept it as even close to an official interpretation, let alone canonical. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 17 2003, 06:36 AM
Post
#44
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'm awaiting a response from Rob on this subject.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 17 2003, 06:47 AM
Post
#45
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Thanks... I was going to write him, but in the end I decided I didn't really care enough. It will be interesting to see what he has to say, though (not like it will necessarily mean anything to anyone here... but hey). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 17 2003, 09:30 AM
Post
#46
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Well, task pools from encephalons and Cerebral Boosters stack (or, more correctly, they grant seperate pools whose dice can be stacked), and guess what, the CED grants a task pool just like those two implants! :) In this case it'd give you access to each task pool of 3, allowing you to add up to three dice from each task pool up to the rating of the 'soft, just like every other instance in the game of adding dice from multiple pools. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 17 2003, 02:05 PM
Post
#47
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
I'm sorry... I must have missed the section in M&M that supports this theory. Is it before or after the section that explicitly states that A Chipjack Expert Driver works on skillsofts 'encoded on a chip'? Or are you now relying on house rules to back your argument? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 17 2003, 02:17 PM
Post
#48
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
ooops... edit
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 17 2003, 04:08 PM
Post
#49
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No, I'm reading the actual description of the implant. You know, the one where it says it makes the Chipjack itself more efficient, not the Skillsoft. There are no magic kung fu powers encoded in the chip that only the all-powerful CED has the ability to unlock. That's your house rule. It makes the Chipjack more efficient. Normally, a Chipjack can only access data encoded on a chip becuase it is a Chipjack -- hence the wording of the rules. That's why you use a router to route the information from a Skillsoft loaded into Headware Memory (most likely data coming through that very same Chipjack to begin with, but obviously the CED can't read the information it needs that way even under your mysteriously weird house rule, right?) to the Chipjack.
And Zazen, yes, the Task Pools from an Enchephelon and a Cerebral Booster "stack." But you can't have two Enchephelons or two Cerebral Boosters and expect them to "stack." Even if you did route Headware Memory to multiple CED-enhanced Chipjacks, the Skillsoft data you routed would only go to one of them. I don't care if you have ten dozen of them daisy chained together, they're still individual implants. Sure, you can send data from one to another, but it doesn't enhance their abilities in any way, shape, or form. You can just communicate between them. Again, you're using another house rule to try and rationalize another one. NOTHING in the game works the way you're suggesting CEDs work. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 17 2003, 04:27 PM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
A story:
Imagine that we are playing in a lower-tech SR game, closer to current levels. Lets, furthermore, pretend that one of the characters, "d3xx0r", is a hacker who wants to upgrade his computer. A wiz new device that just hit the market is a brand new MiniDisc reader that, somehow, optimizes the reading, writing, and data processing of minidiscs so incredibly well as to make them actually faster than the R/W speed of his hard drive. This d3xx0r buys this new drive... but then he gets an *idea* "Hey, GM" d3xx0r says, "I would like to re-wire my computer so the hard drive uses the new MD drive's firmware to increase its own R/W speed" Now, as we exit the story, I ask you... what would you say? "Sure, make a computer b/r and an electronics b/r test?" or do you say "No, a chip on your MD drive can't improve your hard drive just by hooking them together with wires" ...Well? |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 28th June 2026 - 09:18 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.