Keeping Your Weapons Close, Guns, Mag Scanners, and More Options

[Mäx]

Of course, it would help if the MA rules in Arsenal were not a lame sandwich with a biggie-sized side of suck. I mean really. Why spend 5 points for an extra die of something (that is way less cool than the other options for the same cost, btw) when a specialization buys you two dice of the same thing for less than half the cost?

Umm...oh yeah! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Becouse you allready have the specialition and want even more dices or maybe you want some extra damage and MAs are way cheaper than two points of strengh.

[CanRay]

Becouse you allready have the specialition and want even more dices or maybe you want some extra damage and MAs are way cheaper than two points of strengh.

That, and you get to be that guy that just stands in the middle of a combat situation, and everyone watches you because they know that when you do move, it's going to be *DAMN* cool!

[psychophipps]

Becouse you allready have the specialition and want even more dices or maybe you want some extra damage and MAs are way cheaper than two points of strength.

Or maybe I could spend one less BP and get the whole skill, and everything this bonus die entails, up a level? Or for one more point than a super-suck MA slot I can get three dice of the same effect and be more versatile overall?

Come on, it's not that hard to realize that "+1 die to dodge melee attacks (and only melee attacks because we're trying to be extra whack here)" is mayonnaise lameness to the "Aiming is a free action" and "+1 DV to random attack freshness" Tabasco sauciness, people... And they both cost 5 BP, fer chrisakes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[CanRay]

"Aiming is a free action", yet another reason not to screw with Israel.

[Mäx]

Or maybe I could spend one less BP and get the whole skill, and everything this bonus die entails, up a level? Or for one more point than a super-suck MA slot I can get three dice of the same effect and be more versatile overall?

I assumed a maxed skill in my reply, of course becoming and aded i a cheaper the MA:s for exrta dice but maybe somebody doesn't want to make an adept.

Come on, it's not that hard to realize that "+1 die to dodge melee attacks (and only melee attacks because we're trying to be extra whack here)" is mayonnaise lameness to the "Aiming is a free action" and "+1 DV to random attack freshness" Tabasco sauciness, people... And they both cost 5 BP, fer chrisakes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In this i agree with you, put maybe somebody wants to make character who's really good at melee dodge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

psychophipps, not everything is about having the most efficient possible build so you can own everyone you come in contact with. Or rather, it shouldn't be everything.

Besides, if you don't like the rules, just ignore them and move on. What's the problem?

[MaxHunter]

Pro runners should be able to find many ways to bypass security and gun scanners. The players I game with are quite inventive at that.

One that comes to my mind just now was a runner group trying to kidnap an Aztechnollogy intelligence officer in Tenochtitlán. As you can imagine security was really high both at his home and at his "job". They had a very interesting plan and finally pulled it out. I even thought about writing a short story about it "Matando a Cisneros" is the working title.

[ Spoiler ]

They sent a distraction team to perform a failed terrorist attack on the building the mark lived. Part of the runners team was already inside the building (unarmed, in plainclothes and posing as maintenance people). Meanwhile the pointman penetrated security after the terrorist alert sounded, walking with a Jaguar Guard ID and suit they had gotten some time earlier. He met the rest of the group inside the security perimeter and handed them a couple guns he was carrying. Them the "Jaguar guard" again walked up to the target's security detail and announced they would need to be escorted out of the building to the corp for "safety reasons" because of the terrorist threat. Eventually the security people blew his cover but they were gunned down by the Guard and his ambushing team-mates. There were alarms ringing already, but the runners resurrected their ruse of "escorting target to safety" with the rooftop helipad security. Their escaping vehicle of course was a aztech-disguised VTOL driven by their rigger.

Cheers.

Max

[Oenone]

You can always use the Puzzler guns from Arsenal which dismantle into objects which don't look like gun parts.

Not the most powerfull weapon ever, but it's better than not having anything. The only problem I can see is the ammunition, which still needs sneaking in.

As for the olfactory sensors RC has some gear which makes it really /really/ easy to evade them, by shrink wrapping things in plastic and then laser (or nanite) cleaning the traces off.

You also get stuff for jamming MAD scanners too, although they're pretty expensive and have huge availability costs for the better models.

[DreadPirateKitte...]

My former corp security lass uses "Easy Breakdown" on her Fichetti Executive Action, and wears it as bracelets/earrings/necklace etc. The bullets are gel rounds in a large pill bottle. She has a vibroblade with easy breakdown, and a ceramic knife with easy breakdown also.

Go Stealthy weapons!

[Oenone]

Drones with shielded smuggling compartments would work pretty well too.

Especially something mundane like the Renraku Manservant. With a shielded and air tight smuggling section inside it can carry a fair bit of gear, plus act as additional sensors for a Tac Soft.

For added amusement characters with enough Hardware could rewire the button which shuts it down into a contact tazer. So anyone trying to hit the panic button would get zapped instead.

The only trouble is (at least from my reading of the rules) is by having a shielded smuggling compartment anyone scanning whatever you've shielded will instead see a suspicious looking shape which can't be scanned....

[hobgoblin]

now i have the mental image of han solo hiding a blaster inside c-3po.

[psychophipps]

My former corp security lass uses "Easy Breakdown" on her Fichetti Executive Action, and wears it as bracelets/earrings/necklace etc. The bullets are gel rounds in a large pill bottle. She has a vibroblade with easy breakdown, and a ceramic knife with easy breakdown also.

Go Stealthy weapons!

CorpSec: "Excuse me, miss. Can you please explain to the large, angry trolls with shotguns behind you why your jewelry is composed of composite materials commonly used in break-down firearms and your pill bottle has multiple sources of chemical projectile propellant in it?" *Calmly pulling out a tazer* "Oh yes. And before you do anything stupid, we do know about the two knives..."

[PlatonicPimp]

Jeezed dude, you're not even telling us what they are using to detect the weapons. You aren't applying ANY rules, you are simply assuming that security is using something that gives them omniscient powers.

I don't normally do this, but how exactly do you actually PLAY Shadowrun with that attitude? "I'm sorry, security is too good, you die, roll new characters."

Cyberware scanners detect with a single hit. But the machine must recognize it as a weapon to begin with. This depends on it's database. A custom disguised object will NOT be on the database, unless they've encountered that specific object before. So don't get the mass-produced disguied objects, neh? Failing that, the guards themselves are going to have to make perception checks. The average guard will be rolling 6 dice (by definition, really). Good guards may have more. The disguise job can subtract up to 6 dice from that. Chemsniffers are defeated by sealing it in plastic and lasering it.

It's totally possible to sneak your guns around. Your knives too. Get the heck over it.

This is all BY RAW

[CanRay]

Best way? Aquire weapons INSIDE the compound. Have them smuggled in early. "The Godfather" has an excellent example of how to do this. "Payback" has another where you don't even need to smuggle in your own weapons.

Doesn't matter *HOW* good a pat-down is when you got nothing on you save your fists. Which, again, are lethal weapons in the right position.

[hobgoblin]

"mr. guard, may i borrow your gun?"

[Sir_Psycho]

I wouldn't put that past a pornomancer.

Also, with a decent stealth DP you can probably manage to palm a handgun out of a holster.

[psychophipps]

Jeezed dude, you're not even telling us what they are using to detect the weapons. You aren't applying ANY rules, you are simply assuming that security is using something that gives them omniscient powers.

I don't normally do this, but how exactly do you actually PLAY Shadowrun with that attitude? "I'm sorry, security is too good, you die, roll new characters."

Cyberware scanners detect with a single hit. But the machine must recognize it as a weapon to begin with. This depends on it's database. A custom disguised object will NOT be on the database, unless they've encountered that specific object before. So don't get the mass-produced disguied objects, neh? Failing that, the guards themselves are going to have to make perception checks. The average guard will be rolling 6 dice (by definition, really). Good guards may have more. The disguise job can subtract up to 6 dice from that. Chemsniffers are defeated by sealing it in plastic and lasering it.

It's totally possible to sneak your guns around. Your knives too. Get the heck over it.

This is all BY RAW

Actually, a few posts above I described, in as much detail that I had available (which isn't much due to security concerns), the new imaging devices that are going into Toronto-area (IIRC) airports. These puppies are friggin' insane in that they can scan bags and not only find weapons, ammunition and dangerous chemical compounds but also tell you what weapon model it is, what caliber the ammunition is, if those two bottles can be mixed to make something nasty, and (for the really curious) what the frame of the weapon/the bottles holding the chemicals/ammunition propellant are made of. Pretty nifty stuff that just adds a whole new realm of "You're hosed, dude!" to the various no-good people out there trying anything hinky.

That said, I would find it pretty hard to believe that a serious SR-world security area (not the local mall, of course) wouldn't have similar devices but a lot smaller, a lot more accurate, and one hell of a lot cheaper. As SR is an (arguably) CP-genre game, and thus an extension of possible tomorrows fueled by the imaginations of the game developers and (to a lesser extent) ourselves, I felt that adding this info to the mix would prove helpful to my fellow SR GMs.

Sure, you can keep the cyber-detectors, the MADs. and the chem sniffers but all of that stuff is solved (in agonizing detail in various SR books) by the almighty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and you don't even have to RP it. You want your players to seriously work (as in RP their friggin' little heinnies off) for the in at that corp center without simply dropping 20K and waltzing in with a snap-together arsenal. then you toss some o' these little beauties in their laps.

And yes, I'm an overbearing, opinionated wanker™.

[psychophipps]

Best way? Aquire weapons INSIDE the compound. Have them smuggled in early. "The Godfather" has an excellent example of how to do this. "Payback" has another where you don't even need to smuggle in your own weapons.

Doesn't matter *HOW* good a pat-down is when you got nothing on you save your fists. Which, again, are lethal weapons in the right position.

I knew I could count on my favorite canuck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Now comes the fun part. How to get someone to turn on their corp and how can our motley band of misfits get this done with their contacts and their wits?

*dry washes hands while grinning evilly*

[Mäx]

Actually, a few posts above I described, in as much detail that I had available (which isn't much due to security concerns), the new imaging devices that are going into Toronto-area (IIRC) airports. These puppies are friggin' insane in that they can scan bags and not only find weapons, ammunition and dangerous chemical compounds but also tell you what weapon model it is, what caliber the ammunition is, if those two bottles can be mixed to make something nasty, and (for the really curious) what the frame of the weapon/the bottles holding the chemicals/ammunition propellant are made of. Pretty nifty stuff that just adds a whole new realm of "You're hosed, dude!" to the various no-good people out there trying anything hinky.

That said, I would find it pretty hard to believe that a serious SR-world security area (not the local mall, of course) wouldn't have similar devices but a lot smaller, a lot more accurate, and one hell of a lot cheaper. As SR is an (arguably) CP-genre game, and thus an extension of possible tomorrows fueled by the imaginations of the game developers and (to a lesser extent) ourselves, I felt that adding this info to the mix would prove helpful to my fellow SR GMs.

Sure, you can keep the cyber-detectors, the MADs. and the chem sniffers but all of that stuff is solved (in agonizing detail in various SR books) by the almighty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and you don't even have to RP it. You want your players to seriously work (as in RP their friggin' little heinnies off) for the in at that corp center without simply dropping 20K and waltzing in with a snap-together arsenal. then you toss some o' these little beauties in their laps.

And yes, I'm an overbearing, opinionated wanker™.

That device is still only as good as the database it's hooked up to, so if your custom breakdownable gun isn't in the database that scanner doesn't regonise it as a wepoan.
It's not somekind of a magical detector, it's just a regonizition software with a good database of common weapons. That isn't anything new for shadowrun.

[Sir_Psycho]

Regardless of what that machine can and can't do, it's not included in Shadowrun because of game balance, and more importantly, fun. If these things were so cheap like Psychopipps suggested, then they'd be everywhere. Not just airports, but on the entry points for buses, at your work, at schools and at your stuffer shack. They make shadowrunning for everyone except naked martial arts adepts and mages impossible. You can't even have bioware anymore, because this thing can pick up concentrations of unnatural chemicals and compounds in your body. It will pick up the THC in your system after that joint you smoked on the weekend.

Lots of Shadowrun technology is made redundant by what we have today, and we've already came up with things like (simple) DNI, before the timeline said so. We can't really crack modern encryptions in a few seconds using some fantastic super-algorithm. And we can't tell what Joe Runner had for dinner the night before when he walks through a checkpoint, not because it's impossible technology, but because it's game-breaking.

Psychopipps, every time you talk, a spirit of Shadowrun dies.

[DreadPirateKitte...]

CorpSec: "Excuse me, miss. Can you please explain to the large, angry trolls with shotguns behind you why your jewelry is composed of composite materials commonly used in break-down firearms and your pill bottle has multiple sources of chemical projectile propellant in it?" *Calmly pulling out a tazer* "Oh yes. And before you do anything stupid, we do know about the two knives..."

Miss: *sighs, before whacking him with the shock hand*

[psychophipps]

Miss: *sighs, before whacking him with the shock hand*

Nothing wrong with the direct approach, if you ask me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Why be sneaky when your kung-fu hottie can just whup they asses?

[psychophipps]

Regardless of what that machine can and can't do, it's not included in Shadowrun because of game balance, and more importantly, fun. If these things were so cheap like Psychopipps suggested, then they'd be everywhere. Not just airports, but on the entry points for buses, at your work, at schools and at your stuffer shack. They make shadowrunning for everyone except naked martial arts adepts and mages impossible. You can't even have bioware anymore, because this thing can pick up concentrations of unnatural chemicals and compounds in your body. It will pick up the THC in your system after that joint you smoked on the weekend.

Lots of Shadowrun technology is made redundant by what we have today, and we've already came up with things like (simple) DNI, before the timeline said so. We can't really crack modern encryptions in a few seconds using some fantastic super-algorithm. And we can't tell what Joe Runner had for dinner the night before when he walks through a checkpoint, not because it's impossible technology, but because it's game-breaking.

Psychopipps, every time you talk, a spirit of Shadowrun dies.

Well, I do tend to force the non-linear method. To a fault? Perhaps.

First off, these items are "security only". They have all sorts of techno-doodads in them with potential nefarious uses so only fully licensed and correctly applied places can even buy them, let alone afford one. Secondly, "a lot cheaper" is relative. As a security device it's never going to be cheap enough for one to be in every mall entrance. Surefire still charged me $110 for my full-on street legal flashlight, as an example. There is no way that a constantly improved security-only item like this will be sold for under 1-2M (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) before street index (or higher since it's your game). These are the toys of the big boys. Third, "a lot smaller" is also a relative term. The size of a walk-through metal detector at airports seems about right for me. Add a Big Sign. Mean-Looking Guards around it. Obvious to any 'runner worth a damn that they can't just waltz through with their weapons and "hidden" gear. Maybe this job is a bit bigger than they thought? Maybe we need to be really sneaky? And lastly, drug smugglers (and terrorists) have been making nasty things look like not-so-nasty, or even non-nasty, things for decades as of right this moment. You think that a plastic-wrapped something that's been washed off or otherwise sanitized (not necessarily literally but you get the point) hasn't been done before? Why do you think that security at major airports run the swab on your bag instead of just opening your bag up? Residue from drugs in the area are a lot better clue than something you can plastic wrap and sanitze to fit your needs before shipment. You think that shipments of flower pots haven't had other types of pot under, inside, around, etc. them? You think that CorpSec, which is directly linked to public opinion vie news clips about break-ins which is directly linked to shareholder confidence which is directly linked to profits and continuing operations, isn't going to think that maybe, per chance, random potential here some dink is gonna try something similar and try to get some SOTA goodies?

Yeah, you think that I'm killing the game. I'm too harsh. A big ol' dragon-breath meanie-head stomping all over these boards and making your happy gaming existence a living hell of boorish platitudes and asinine detail mongering.

Well, guess what? My players are all old skool CP and SR gamers from 1st Ed. We eat most gamers for lunch at cons. We care that 99% of SR run issues shouldn't be fixed with a certified cred stick. And we're mature enough to hack that perhaps a bit of oh...realism of the down n' dirty persuasion isn't bad thing if the group is down with it. They, and I, would rather gut through the whole deal of finding a potential mole, finding out what we can do to make them our bitch, turning them via hook or crook, and getting the deed done without, or hopefully at least minimal, muss or fuss. Yeah, right... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

You play Splinter Cell. I play a whole Tom Clancy novel. Different strokes for different folks, yo?

[CanRay]

I knew I could count on my favorite canuck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Now comes the fun part. How to get someone to turn on their corp and how can our motley band of misfits get this done with their contacts and their wits?

*dry washes hands while grinning evilly*

Let the Ninja-Wannabe beat the crap out of them, take their toys. The Hacker then unlocks the Software Safety. Boom, instant armaments that the corporation thinks are supposed to be there. Even if they're "Smart" and arm their security guys with the same guns, they can't use that trick of the "Weapon Sound Detection" against the group!

And you have guns to pawn when you get done with the run, too! Beer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) !

[psychophipps]

Let the Ninja-Wannabe beat the crap out of them, take their toys. The Hacker then unlocks the Software Safety. Boom, instant armaments that the corporation thinks are supposed to be there. Even if they're "Smart" and arm their security guys with the same guns, they can't use that trick of the "Weapon Sound Detection" against the group!

And you have guns to pawn when you get done with the run, too! Beer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) !

Ok, that just rocks.

Now add a voice modulator with the corp employees voice plugged in case the personnel dept calls their comlink wondering why you're at work on your day off and you'll probably be in biz as long as you aren't greedy and going into some insanely secure location like top-flight R&D. This should also buy you a few minutes if security is informed a bit later that you're there and the guards are all wondering "Umm...I don't see Wilson come in a few minutes ago...WTF?"

Best part is the beer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Nothing like drinking on your victim's dime...