Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Keeping Your Weapons Close
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
Aaron
So I was recently looking at the ceramic/plasteel components weapon mod, and I remembered something from the short film, "Semi-Automatic:"

QUOTE (Jason Blaine - "Semi-Automatic")
This is my weapon: a Glock-17. Made with a plastic polymer that's ten times stronger than steel. It won't set off any metal detectors. Bullets do, and so do the internal working parts of the gun, so I'm not really sure what the big deal is.

Obviously, the internal-workings part of the problem doesn't apply to a weapon with the mod in question, but it reminded me that the rounds in the magazine need to be part of the equation, too.

So here's the question. What do you, as a player, have your character(s) do to keep your weapons when walking into an area of high security?

CanRay
The Glock has metal parts in it. They DO set off metal detectors. Have a nice day.

There are a few Polymer Pistols in Shadowrun that don't set of Magnetic Anomoly Detectors (MADs). Often, they are caseless, so the ammo won't either, if you buy special ammo that has no lead or jacketing.

But chem sniffers will pick those up. But, as I recall one person putting it, "Sealed Plastic Baggies, it's not just for your Drugs any more."

Now, as to the question:

"Money" Johnson often walks into High Security Areas. He's a "Corporate Investment Investigator" in the Light. So those Security Guards are protecting him. He does, however, have a Conceal Carry Permit of the highest order, and it's on the Corporate Sites that can deny him the right to carry. In that case, he has a few Ceramic Folding Knives hidden in various places.

"Nas" is more the type to wait outside, with the engine running, waiting for the rest to do their job, so his huge metal handcannon isn't as much as issue there as you'd think. Nor are the twinned machine pistols.
Mx
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 21 2008, 05:55 PM) *
The Glock has metal parts in it. They DO set off metal detectors. Have a nice day.


Did you read the line OP quoted at all, it clearly says that the inner-workings of the gun set of metal detectors.

Many of my characters carry tasers in hidden armslides and them being completly legal allas you to take them in most of the places.
And my Sasha is a licenced "armed escort" so pretending to be a other team members bodyquard should allow her to keep her guns as long as the team doesn't try to go into some of those relly high security places.
Leofski
Presumably Gel ammo doesn't set detectors off, assuming a polymer casing.
Fuchs
Legal, licensed weapons are the first choice - firearms preferred, but shock gloves and other melee weapons work as well. Next up are good hand to hand skills. Then come the exotic plans - like, having guns smuggled in beforehand, or ready to be brought in the hard way (by drone, spirit, or other team members), or having prepared the codes and hacks to grab guns from security.
Earlydawn
As an FYI, sealed plastic baggies are not effective in deterring drug K-9s. Ask any narcotics dog handler. People have tried the most absurd shit you can think of to move drugs, and it just doesn't work.. that snout is too sensitive.
hyzmarca
The easiest way to get a weapon past security is to flash a badge - any badge - too quickly for anyone to actually see and calmly mutter the name of an agency that might reasonably have authority there as you confidently stroll through the beeping metal detectors without slowing down.

If security tries to stop you, reply "national security" (or "corporate security") and flash them a nasty look like you're about to call their boss and get them all fired. If that doesn't work there is always the old standby "do you like watching TV? do you ever watch 24? well if this were a TV show it would be called 1!. Now let me do my job, dammit!"
Fuchs
But in SR, badges will be flashed electronically... so, you need to hack, and hack well.
CanRay
"His Badge said CIA!" "Yes, but the broadcast RFID said CLEAVEAGE INVESTIGATION AGENCY you idiot!"
hyzmarca
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 21 2008, 01:29 PM) *
"His Badge said CIA!" "Yes, but the broadcast RFID said CLEAVEAGE INVESTIGATION AGENCY you idiot!"


" I know, it's why I let him investigate my cleavage", replied the blond.
CanRay
Ah the joys of Sex-retaries.

Oh, I'm so going to Hell for so many reasons!
psychophipps
To be perfectly honest, most places in the SR world won't give a rip if you're reasonably armed or not. That's what blast doors, locking elevators, ballistic windows, etc are for. Add to this that most high-security areas will include an armed escort if they really care that much and you're probably not going to be a problem.
Zaranthan
Gel rounds were my knee-jerk answer. Also, doesn't that lemon-squeezer hold-out pistol use special flechette ammo that also doesn't turn up?
Kyoto Kid
...the HK Urban Fighter uses special ammo that is in hermetically sealed clips. For those with Armourer skill there are also the WW Infiltrator and SA Puzzler which break down into innocuous looking components. However with these there is still the matter of getting the ammo through the scanners.

One other weapon I would think about is the Ares Super Squirt III. Make it out of polymers and it would pretty much be invisible to both MAD and Sniffer sensors as the chemical "ammo" is sealed in gel capsules, and you don't need lethal chemicals to make it effective. The one big downside is it now requires exotic ranged weapons skill instead of pistols (as in 3rd ed) to use even though it is described in the core rules more as a projectile firing rather than stream or splash weapon (in our group it falls under Pistols skill).
HeavyMetalYeti
QUOTE (Jason Blaine - "Semi-Automatic")
This is my weapon: a Glock-17. Made with a plastic polymer that's ten times stronger than steel. It won't set off any metal detectors. Bullets do, and so do the internal working parts of the gun, so I'm not really sure what the big deal is.

I have a Glock-32C, the frame is the only composite on the weapon. The slide, barrel, magazine and all the internal workings are metal. For a "Plastic" gun it is still alot of metal.
Irian
Aren't MADs totaly outdated today already? Afaik, even today there are scanners that don't care about metall or plastic, as they simply display the hard, pistol-form thing in your pocket on a screen... That was always one of the problems of Shadowrun, imho, that scanners were so over-simplified, either something was found by MAD scanners or it was totaly invisible. Imho, in Shadowrun, whenever there ARE scanners, than you can assume that weapons will be found unless concealed exceptionally well (and that means extremly well - inside a bag of clay probably won't work, for example).

Imho, you always have to avoid the scanners, as you can't defeat them directly. Carry legal weapons, buy permits, use social engineering to use the back door, etc.etc.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Irian @ Jun 21 2008, 05:01 PM) *
Imho, you always have to avoid the scanners, as you can't defeat them directly. Carry legal weapons, buy permits, use social engineering to use the back door, etc.etc.

...yeah, the Short One has a Bodyguard license and Concealed Firearms permits. When she can't bring in any heat she still has her "built in" Shock Hands that never need recharging (Elemental Effect: Electricity power). grinbig.gif
Sombranox
My personal favorite is the easy breakdown mod combined with a cyberlimb large smuggling compartment for ammo clips and the scent-masking spy cigarettes from arsenal.

Weapons broken down to look like pieces of jewelry and other accessories that a MAD scanner can't recognize as a weapon. Ammo clips look like part of the cyberlimb to the MAD and the cigs counteract chemsniffers partially.

One group I used to game with also had a custom item/cyber that was an external/internal hermetically sealed smuggling container. External item looked like a briefcase or purse or whatnot, could completely defeat a sniffer.
Aaron
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 21 2008, 08:55 AM) *
The Glock has metal parts in it. They DO set off metal detectors. Have a nice day.

*sigh*

Could you please go back and read the original post that says that setting off detectors doesn't apply with the weapon mod in question, that being the ceramic/plasteel component mod from Arsenal? Thanks.

QUOTE
"Nas" is more the type to wait outside, with the engine running, waiting for the rest to do their job, so his huge metal handcannon isn't as much as issue there as you'd think. Nor are the twinned machine pistols.

What does he do when he needs to get those weapons into high-security parts of the Sprawl, such as Downtown Seattle?
Muspellsheimr
Why has the obvious solution not been mentioned yet? Just use Hi-C rounds.
Aaron
Bonus Karma for Muspellsheimr. Any others?
Sir_Psycho
Although even hi-C plastic rounds contain the explosive propellant that a chemsniffer, dog, or guard with olfactory cyber or bio will pick up on.

Are there any rules on making your own "hermetically sealed" clips, or must you pick up the specific gun like the lemon-squeezer or the urban combat?

All that aside, what you're carrying means squat if you're clumsy and conspicuous, and the gaurd notices that bulge at your hip. Concealable holsters are a necessity, and the Palming skill comes in it's most useful in this situation. Faces and stealth characters should really invest in Palming for this very reason, and it's handy to have the lovely enhanced articulation, as it provides a bonus to the roll.
psychophipps
The problem I see is how all of these scanners actually scan for density rather than for anything specifically metal. Sure, metals show up best but they will still pick up things like plastic explosives, plastics, woods, etc due to them being of a different composition than most other non-weapon materials.
So go right on ahead and slap that all-plastic gun on, buddy. These troll guards still gonna tap dance on your spine and disarm you well before you get anywhere important...
Cthulhudreams
characters who don't have another 'weapon' like magic or haxoring usually have monowhips, which, if built into something else like one of those stupid big hoop earrings should be impossible to detect.
CanRay
QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 21 2008, 10:24 PM) *
What does he do when he needs to get those weapons into high-security parts of the Sprawl, such as Downtown Seattle?

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction about Glocks, I apologise. Too many people I've had to educate about that.

As for Nas and when he needs to get into places, he doesn't. He stays in the car and waits for the rest of the group, he's the driver, it's what he does. nyahnyah.gif

If the cops are pulling him over and searching the car, a Revolver is going to be the least of the issues with a Shadowgroup riding shotgun.
hyzmarca
The real trick to smuggling guns past security is to stuff them in this teenager's baggy pants, which magically make firearms immune to all forms of detection.


Also, never underestimate the usefulness of a distraction. Set off a carbomb out side and walk through the security gate while everyone is rushing to the window to rubberneck, for example.
VagabondStar
Two Words:

Oral Spur.
Cadmus
QUOTE (VagabondStar @ Jun 25 2008, 11:55 PM) *
Two Words:

Oral Spur.


A kiss goodnight?


Check please!
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Irian @ Jun 22 2008, 02:01 AM) *
Aren't MADs totaly outdated today already? Afaik, even today there are scanners that don't care about metall or plastic, as they simply display the hard, pistol-form thing in your pocket on a screen... That was always one of the problems of Shadowrun, imho, that scanners were so over-simplified, either something was found by MAD scanners or it was totaly invisible. Imho, in Shadowrun, whenever there ARE scanners, than you can assume that weapons will be found unless concealed exceptionally well (and that means extremly well - inside a bag of clay probably won't work, for example).

You haven't read the rules for Cyberware Scanners, have you?
Irian
No, just missed the little ",weapon" in the table, to be honest. So it already works that way smile.gif
marinco
throwing mastery + power throw + paper clip = yay
PlatonicPimp
OK, so starting with a hold-out pistol of your favorite variety, and using arsenal:

Add shorter barrel (it makes little sense, but do it), ruthenium polymer, and full on cermamic build (some hold outs have this already). Put in in a concealable holster under a greatcoat, in a sealed plastic bag.

This whole shebang adds up thusly: -6 (holdout) -4(ruthenium) -2 (greatcoat) -2( holster) -1 (short barrel) = -15 to the dice pool of any perception attempt to notice the gun. Undetectable to mad scanners, chemsniffers need 3 hits to detect unless you are smoking one of those sniffer-defeating cigs, which I forget the rules for at the moment. But seriously, -15 to perception. A character with exceptional attribute intuition and exceptional ability perception would still have NO DICE to notice you have it on you unless they were also augmented.
Mx
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jul 3 2008, 04:57 PM) *
OK, so starting with a hold-out pistol of your favorite variety, and using arsenal:

Add shorter barrel (it makes little sense, but do it), ruthenium polymer, and full on cermamic build (some hold outs have this already). Put in in a concealable holster under a greatcoat, in a sealed plastic bag.

This whole shebang adds up thusly: -6 (holdout) -4(ruthenium) -2 (greatcoat) -2( holster) -1 (short barrel) = -15 to the dice pool of any perception attempt to notice the gun. Undetectable to mad scanners, chemsniffers need 3 hits to detect unless you are smoking one of those sniffer-defeating cigs, which I forget the rules for at the moment. But seriously, -15 to perception. A character with exceptional attribute intuition and exceptional ability perception would still have NO DICE to notice you have it on you unless they were also augmented.


Most places where you requier a weapon like that to quards not notice it equipts the quards with cyberware scanner and with that it's a threshold 1 test to detect the gun.
CanRay
Also, a gun like that would only be useful in the same way a Derringer is. From across the poker table.

Of course, Derringers are useful at times as well for various jobs. President Lincoln, for example... frown.gif
Aaron
Good answers so far, but I don't think I've seen anything that would defeat a magical approach to security, such as a Detect Weapons spell.
Drogos
You fight magic with magic...Counterspelling.

I'd get by with judicious use of the Influence spell biggrin.gif
Cadmus
easy way to defeat the MAD scanner, is...To blow up the building its in, vegm.gif
CanRay
Honestly, just train with the FIRST WEAPON.

Now that we have advanced rules for Martial Arts thanks to Arsenal!
hobgoblin
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 23 2008, 04:45 PM) *
The real trick to smuggling guns past security sis to stuff them in this teenager's baggy pants, which magically make firearms immune to all forms of detection.


now thats just silly.

i would love to see him walk around with all that firepower...

and most of those guns where .22's, right?
Daier Mune
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jul 3 2008, 02:19 PM) *
now thats just silly.

i would love to see him walk around with all that firepower...

and most of those guns where .22's, right?


I'd love to hear him walk around with all that firepower. i assume he would sound like a windchime as he waddled about.
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 3 2008, 02:27 PM) *
Most places where you requier a weapon like that to quards not notice it equipts the quards with cyberware scanner and with that it's a threshold 1 test to detect the gun.


Good catch, I hadn't handled that in the design listed. I also checked m rulebook and holds outs start with -4 to notice, not -6. Unfortunately, Here's where we get into some GM call type situations, so YMMV as usual for such things.

First off, the Item has to be in the database to be recognized automatically. GM call if it's on the database. If it isn't, then the people operating the scanner might have to roll a perception check to determine if it is a weapon.

Both are handled by using the disguise an object rules from arsenal. Double the cost of the item for a -2 penalty on identifying it as whatever it is with a perception check. The gun so modified would certainly NOT be in the database, as it is a custom object. The guard then has to make a perception check with a -2 penalty to figure out it's a gun. You can increase this penalty up to -6 with more money thrown at the problem. You can disguise it as whatever you want, so long as it's 150% bigger. Because of this, I'd say the base concealability goes to the next level up, or -2 instead of -4 in this case.

So starting with the Elan, we have : 450(gun) + 50(barrel reduction) + 1000(chameleon coat) X 6 (-6 modifier disguised) = 9000 nuyen for the gun, plus lets say the synergist longcoat with it's built in concealable holster for another 1,300 nuyen. Availability low enough for a starting character (7 for the pistol, 8 for the coat.) No cost listed for shrink wrapping it, lets assume it's negligible. 15 nuyen a pop for the Hi-c rounds it needs, so 75 for it's ammo clip.

So 10,375 gets you a gun that applies a -11 penalty to see it with visual inspection, is undetectable to MAD scanners, needs 3 hits to be detected by a chemsniffer, isn't in any cyberware scanners database, and even if detected requires a perception check to be identified as a weapon at all, with a -6 penalty.

The character of mine that will use these will use 2. They slide together to look like a commlink still in it's original sealed packaging. Imagine a PSP that when you pull the handles on either side, it slides apart onto a pair of guns. If I ever have to explain it, it's a present I just bought for my neice on a whim before walking in, and I put in the the concealable holster because the darn coat came with one, and my other pockets were full. High charisma and Con are your last line of defense.

That's the best I can do.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Daier Mune @ Jul 3 2008, 11:12 PM) *
I'd love to hear him walk around with all that firepower. i assume he would sound like a windchime as he waddled about.


quite possible. by the sound of the narrator this have mostly been used as an example to frighten the parents into agreeing on some kind of dress code for a local school. it makes me wonder what kind of pr stuff a AAA could dream up on the drop of a hat to make their subject agree to something...

"big bro corp have your best interests in mind"...
Rad
"New from Securicop™!

Tired of being mugged by gangers?
Does Lone Star always take too long to show up?
Never a witness around when you need one?

Now, you can feel safe with PrivacyRape!™

The patent-pending combination of LoJack technology, simsense recording, and streaming wireless broadcast!

Other security companies monitor your vitals, but our teams monitor everything you see and hear to keep you safe--24-7! GPS tracking tags assure a prompt response from Protection Forces™, and AR warnings notify you when entering or engaging in potentially dangerous areas or activities!

Sign up now and get a free trial of our new MetaStirrup™ implant, the amazing new 'ware that actually *prevents* you from doing anything dangerous!"
Voran
In former gaming experience, sometimes our runner teams would plant weapons. The risk is that you're getting to the same location multiple times, and might be picked up for your repeat appearances, but potential benefit is that you have backups.

It's easier to smuggle in weapons or stuff (theoretically) when you're being delivery/maintenance dude dropping off/installing stuff, and then you hide it in the bathroom or something, or some area your hacker has gotten the eyes in the sky taken care of.

Then, when doing the actual job, you waltz in more or less unarmed, then arm up once on-site.

Its usually more cost effective for the corp to chokepoint detection areas, but once beyond, its easier to move around.
Wasabi
A Flashlight-of-death. A Ceramic/Plasteel "Ares Redline" Laser Pistol painted with anti-wireless paint. That way TM's using E-Sensing may be defeated at GM discretion on how E-Sensing works. Its also silent and has no recoil so no need for further modification except maybe Smartlink and Rate of Fire**.



**Which would make it a really deadly laser-derringer ammo-wise, lol
psychophipps
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 3 2008, 12:06 PM) *
Honestly, just train with the FIRST WEAPON.

Now that we have advanced rules for Martial Arts thanks to Arsenal!


Of course, it would help if the MA rules in Arsenal were not a lame sandwich with a biggie-sized side of suck. I mean really. Why spend 5 points for an extra die of something (that is way less cool than the other options for the same cost, btw) when a specialization buys you two dice of the same thing for less than half the cost?

Umm...oh yeah! indifferent.gif

psychophipps
The main issue that I see is that sensor technology has gone forward but SR sensors largely haven't.

I recently watched an episode of Future Weapons that showed a new scanner that will not only detect weapons, but also dangerous chemicals. And not just chemicals and weapons, my friends. Oh no. It will then tell you what model of weapon it's looking at and will also tell you why the chemical in bottle #4 is a no-go. Trying to use a binary agent? HA! We got that whipped too! This baby will even tell you if the various bottles in the bag can be mixed into a nasty explosive if it's worth mentioning besides "it'll catch on fire, yo?" like many household chemicals.
The worst part? It's not even a sniffer of any kind. It blasts the items with X-rays/microwaves/ninja wamba-jamba and such and uses the frequency of the returns to tell you the precise chemical and metallurgical composition of the item and compares to a Hugh Jass database. Got a plastic baggie on the C-12? No help there, butthead. And please stay still while our friendly trolls tap dance on your spine.

The 'runners job just got WAAAAAAY harder...
PlatonicPimp
Yeah, That pretty much describes the cyberware scanner, which we've already talked about. Fun new real world tech aside, The rules for how the sensors your characters will face work are in the book. I find it somewhat appalling how little this thread has referenced those rules.

A cyberware scanner requires a single hit to detect weapons, or anything else you carry for that matter. The sensor isn't the bottleneck, it's the Database. If you are creative, you can make something that either isn't in the database, or better yet, reads as something harmless. If it isn't in the database, then we are relying on a security guard to do the checking.

Not to mention hacking the durn thing while you wait in line.
CanRay
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Aug 15 2008, 09:38 AM) *
Of course, it would help if the MA rules in Arsenal were not a lame sandwich with a biggie-sized side of suck. I mean really. Why spend 5 points for an extra die of something (that is way less cool than the other options for the same cost, btw) when a specialization buys you two dice of the same thing for less than half the cost?

Umm...oh yeah! indifferent.gif

My group has loved the martial arts rules. 'Course, one is playing a Ninja Wanna-Be and another is a Gun-Fu Masta!
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Legal, licensed weapons are the first choice

The problem with this is that some places (schools, hospitals, government buildings) won't let you bring weapons in even with a permit. It's quite possible that additional locales (casinos, nightclubs, etc.) will impose similar restrictions, and by 2070, you can be sure that most corporate holdings require their own permits - if they allow them at all outside of their on-duty security forces. I don't see 2070 weapon laws becoming more permissive, but far more restrictive, and faking permits will be of limited value.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012