EMP and the Technomancer, SuperMatrixMen's Krytonite Options

[WearzManySkins]

OK what effects does a EMP weapon/Grenade have on a Technomancer?

1. Causes physical Damage? like a weapon and resisted the same/similar way?
2. Causes a Reduction in Signal Strength?
3. Does nothing but interrupt the Signal?

I am leaning to number 1, after all most Technomancers do not have optical circuits installed.

WMS

[hobgoblin]

i would hazard a guess that it would have a similar effect to a stick&shock round.

that depends on how metalic based that biological antenna is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shiloh]

OK what effects does a EMP weapon/Grenade have on a Technomancer?

1. Causes physical Damage? like a weapon and resisted the same/similar way?
2. Causes a Reduction in Signal Strength?
3. Does nothing but interrupt the Signal?

I am leaning to number 1, after all most Technomancers do not have optical circuits installed.

WMS

Yeah, me too. If I have my "realism" head on. EMP can burn out RF receivers on a permanent basis, and most circuits will receive RF to some degree. TMs obviously have some "hardening" because their RF aerials are buried in conductive stuff that will soak the damaging heat, but it's stil not going to be very comfortable... So maybe Stun damage, like Dumpshock, or non-black IC...

[Irian]

Surely not 1. Technomancer don't have ANY ciruits installed. They are exactly as much affected as other humans. Their brain is still organic, there are no electronic parts that are especially vulnerable to an EMP. The brain just sends out signals like a computer, but it isn't one.

I would say, Technomancers are affected as if their "internal" comlink was totaly immune against direct damage by the EMP. Interferences caused by an EMP (possible?) will of course also affect the TM's signal strength.

[WearzManySkins]

Surely not 1. Technomancer don't have ANY ciruits installed. They are exactly as much affected as other humans. Their brain is still organic, there are no electronic parts that are especially vulnerable to an EMP. The brain just sends out signals like a computer, but it isn't one.

I would say, Technomancers are affected as if their "internal" comlink was totaly immune against direct damage by the EMP. Interferences caused by an EMP (possible?) will of course also affect the TM's signal strength.

As Per UnWired TM's can now generate jamming fields.

I understand your attempt at a "logical" explanation/reasoning but TM's ability to connect to the Matrix has yet to have received such.

From what I have read and understood TM are biological commlinks with extra abilities, but since the biological commlink has no optical circuits EMP would have some effects.

I like the suggestion that it would cause damage similar to SnS rounds or TAZERS.

WMS

[Irian]

Imho, that's not quite logical: Of course, it's has no optical circuits - but it also doesn't have electronical ones, just biological. Imho, it's not "Doesn't have optical circuits -> Is not affected by EMP" but "Does has electronic circuits -> Is affected by EMP". An abacus (or a tree) also doesn't have any optical circuits - but it's still not affected by an EMP.

And so I would say, as a brain isn't very vulnerable against EMP, a Technomancer's brain still isn't. That this brain does the same work as comlink doesn't change anything. A human's brain can already do the same as a calculator (and more), but that doesn't mean that the human needs batteries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dashifen]

I would have an EMP do absolutely nothing to a TM.

Edit: What Irian said (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[WearzManySkins]

I would have an EMP do absolutely nothing to a TM.

Edit: What Irian said (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Clarification request

Are you saying the TM Signal ie wireless signal would be immune to effects of EMP?

WMS

[mattvo28]

Just looking up the wikipedia entry for an EMP and Electromagnetic Bomb, the technomancer himself would be fine as he does not possess any vacuum tubes, integrated circuits, transistors, or inductors (unless of course he get cyberware installed). It would be the same as hitting a person with bioware with an EMP...nothing.

BUT the area would flood with EM radiation which would act as a jamming field. You might even house rule it to be like a mana storm from Street Magic until Unwired comes out.

Now if you wanted some sort of defense against it for your ware, I would suggest a Faraday Cage. Not having the electrical engineering background I don't know how much room you need between the cage wall and any electronics so the essence cost could be so high as to not be practical.

[Muspellsheimr]

EMPs interrupt signal's, and fry non-optical circuits.

Technomancer's have no circuits to fry, but their signal would be temporarily disrupted. It should be handled as normal, and if the technomancer's signal would be reduced to out of range of any device they are interacting with, they loose connection. There is nothing stopping them from simply reconnecting their next pass, however (although it may require re-hacking in if there is no back door)

EDIT:
Correction to the above

The moment of wireless disruption is not sufficient to drop an icon from the Matrix; it lasts less than a second in real-time. However, the affected icons cannot act (or be affected) during the Combat Turn that the pulse hits.

/EDIT

BUT the area would flood with EM radiation which would act as a jamming field. You might even house rule it to be like a mana storm from Street Magic until Unwired comes out.

Unwired has been out for 2 days.

[mattvo28]

Yeah sorry about that, I reread the announcement minutes after my post. I thought both the PDF and hardcover (I don't buy pdf's as I hate really reading from them) came out on July 29th.

But there really should be a signal test, since ECCM is suppose to cut through jamming and disruption.

[WearzManySkins]

One note and or point, if a current human brain had copper electrodes into the various areas of the brain but outside the skull into a antenna, would an EMP have any effect.

I know from personal work experience that the above conditions would not be allowed in a MRI, with a patient.

EMP Wiki

The resulting electric and magnetic fields may couple with electrical/electronic systems to produce damaging current and voltage surges.

The worst of the pulse lasts for only a second, but any unprotected electrical equipment — and anything connected to electrical cables, which act as giant lightning rods or antennas — will be affected by the pulse.

Now since how exactly TM's transmit signal is yet as of today been defined......

Any signal needs some type/kind of antenna to transmit the signal any distance. An Antenna wired into your brain will pick up the voltage and current surges from an EMP. These voltages are in 100's of volts and current surges in the 10's of amps.

Now the precise effects of voltages in microvolts/microamp, is known today, in the correct areas of the brain applications of microvolts/microamp can stimulate that area of the brain, in some cases bringing up past memories.

Voltages in the volt/amp or greater will cause damage to brain tissue.

So a TM will have a circuit to fry, his brain circuits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Back to the main question does a TM have a antenna in his brain? if so the effects of a EMP will affect him/her.

One note again the Devs have repeatedly state that TM are not mages, nor do they use magical things.

WMS

[Dashifen]

Ah ... missed the question re: the TM's signal, I was talking primarily about the Living Persona being effected like an un-hardened commlink might be.

[Muspellsheimr]

The book does not say EMPs damage technomancers, and so they do not. Simple as that. End of argument.


Now, I will attempt to explain why it does not.

Every human has an electrical field surrounding their body, and operates by sending electrical signals through their nervous system. An electromagnetic pulse does not affect these systems in any way significant, and possibly does not affect them at all. This means that an EMP will not affect bioelectric systems. A technomancer works exactly the same way, except his/her abilities are expanded. As it is still purely biological, there are no circuits to fry.

An electromagnetic pulse will disrupt a technomancer's signal the same way it disrupts any signal, but it will not otherwise harm a technomancer beyond what it would anyone else.

[Dumori]

Yes but in a world where EM spikes are quite common I would think a Technomacer would be resistant to changes in background EM. Also the "Antenna" is not in or directly part of the brain but the entire body. Do EMPs do any thing to you? even if you where 10 times more effected by them I really don't think it would kill you.

[WearzManySkins]

The book does not say EMPs damage technomancers, and so they do not. Simple as that. End of argument.


Now, I will attempt to explain why it does not.

Every human has an electrical field surrounding their body, and operates by sending electrical signals through their nervous system. An electromagnetic pulse does not affect these systems in any way significant, and possibly does not affect them at all. This means that an EMP will not affect bioelectric systems. A technomancer works exactly the same way, except his/her abilities are expanded. As it is still purely biological, there are no circuits to fry.

An electromagnetic pulse will disrupt a technomancer's signal the same way it disrupts any signal, but it will not otherwise harm a technomancer beyond what it would anyone else.

Please note my example of cooper wires implanted into a human brain and the effects of voltages/current via those wires.

Your example is good except for the lack of a wired antenna into the brain.

As for your first statement (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

WMS

[Muspellsheimr]

Copper is a very effective conductor, far more so than biological tissue. There are no copper anything in a technomancer to make him function. There is also no 'wired' anything in a technomancer, so your point is moot.

[CanRay]

Temporary interference from the EMP, and one hell of a migraine is about all I'd do to any Techies in my group.

Maybe some stun damage if they were really close.

[Irian]

Are you saying the TM Signal ie wireless signal would be immune to effects of EMP?

Does an EMP affect the Signal of a normal comlink (except by damaging the comlink itself, of course)? If yes, then the TM's signal would be affected as well - seems likely. The only difference is, that the TM's "hardware" can't get damaged by the EMP (except for EMPs that will damage normal humans as well, of course).

[CanRay]

The only difference is, that the TM's "hardware" can't get damaged by the EMP (except for EMPs that will damage normal humans as well, of course).

You mean like the EMPs that occure from Nuclear Blasts? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[WearzManySkins]

You mean like the EMPs that occure from Nuclear Blasts? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

That is one source of EMP but in the Current RL and SR4 it is not the only source of EMP. IIRC it was first noted after nuclear explosian.

WMS

[Irian]

You mean like the EMPs that occure from Nuclear Blasts? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

I did a short Google search and somebody wrote that a very energy-intensive EMP (or something like that) could possibly damage human cells. Don't know if that's true, but if there were an EMP strong enough to damage humans, it would of course also damage TMs.

[WearzManySkins]

Muspellsheimr

Every human has an electrical field surrounding their body, and operates by sending electrical signals through their nervous system. An electromagnetic pulse does not affect these systems in any way significant, and possibly does not affect them at all. This means that an EMP will not affect bioelectric systems. A technomancer works exactly the same way, except his/her abilities are expanded. As it is still purely biological, there are no circuits to fry.

Yes that is a very correct statement but this is also, humans do not transmit or receive wireless signals, nor can they jam signals. But in the Game of Shadowrun 4 a particular segment of the Metahuman/Human species does. Again the Devs have not stated how these beings perform these feats of electromagnetic alteration/transmission. So until the Devs come clean, nothing is set in stone.

Copper is a very effective conductor, far more so than biological tissue. There are no copper anything in a technomancer to make him function. There is also no 'wired' anything in a technomancer, so your point is moot.

Yes but human beings are basically salt water an excellant conductor. Our skin makes for a partially effective insulator against most minor electrical forces. Electrical forces can use other things than copper, like the air if conditions are correct enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Without the Handwavium of Magic, that means a Technomancer has to follow/subscribe to current needs of RF transmission, ie an Antenna to send and receive electromagnetic photons. For now I call this antenna the TM Antenna with is both passive and active array the best features of a Electronically scanned array and a Phased array. For now this TM Antenna uses the TM's entire Nervous System ie CNS and Peripheral.

One feature that most if not all antenna perform is to gather or collect the electromagnetic photons and concentrate them into much larger electromagnetic potential. Like a Parabolic mirror concentrating sunlight at a fixed focal point, several orders of magnitude that it normally is. This means the normally insignificant to normal beings EMP burst, is several orders of magnitude of greater electromotive force/photons. This amplified/magnified electromotive force is what I am speaking of affecting the Nervous System of the TM.

The book does not say EMPs damage technomancers, and so they do not. Simple as that. End of argument.

Interesting attempt to end a discussion but the same token it never specifically excludes them either. But with those words I see many here discussing what is or not said and how it was said in RAW. So discussions of such is a valid thread topic, and the many topics here show that. That you for you "Valued" input. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[CanRay]

Muspellsheimr
Yes that is a very correct statement but this is also, humans do not transmit or receive wireless signals, nor can they jam signals.

Except in very, very rare cases.

And, yes, I've seen it happen with my own two eyes.

[WearzManySkins]

Except in very, very rare cases.

And, yes, I've seen it happen with my own two eyes.

True IIRC most of these involved some kind of dental implants/filling interacting with body fluids etc.

I did have a Senior Chief Petty Officer that could crash my entire Computer Room(7 pieces of Equipment) for my Guided Missile System if he stayed longer than 10 minutes in the room. His words was the System does not like him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

But I believe the TM are in greater numbers than the Very, Very, Rare cases. But again the Devs are not real forth coming or consistent in the numbers game.

WMS