OK what effects does a EMP weapon/Grenade have on a Technomancer?

1. Causes physical Damage? like a weapon and resisted the same/similar way?
2. Causes a Reduction in Signal Strength?
3. Does nothing but interrupt the Signal?

I am leaning to number 1, after all most Technomancers do not have optical circuits installed.

WMS

i would hazard a guess that it would have a similar effect to a stick&shock round.

that depends on how metalic based that biological antenna is

Yeah, me too. If I have my "realism" head on. EMP can burn out RF receivers on a permanent basis, and most circuits will receive RF to some degree. TMs obviously have some "hardening" because their RF aerials are buried in conductive stuff that will soak the damaging heat, but it's stil not going to be very comfortable... So maybe Stun damage, like Dumpshock, or non-black IC...

Surely not 1. Technomancer don't have ANY ciruits installed. They are exactly as much affected as other humans. Their brain is still organic, there are no electronic parts that are especially vulnerable to an EMP. The brain just sends out signals like a computer, but it isn't one.

I would say, Technomancers are affected as if their "internal" comlink was totaly immune against direct damage by the EMP. Interferences caused by an EMP (possible?) will of course also affect the TM's signal strength.

As Per UnWired TM's can now generate jamming fields.

I understand your attempt at a "logical" explanation/reasoning but TM's ability to connect to the Matrix has yet to have received such.

From what I have read and understood TM are biological commlinks with extra abilities, but since the biological commlink has no optical circuits EMP would have some effects.

I like the suggestion that it would cause damage similar to SnS rounds or TAZERS.

WMS

Imho, that's not quite logical: Of course, it's has no optical circuits - but it also doesn't have electronical ones, just biological. Imho, it's not "Doesn't have optical circuits -> Is not affected by EMP" but "Does has electronic circuits -> Is affected by EMP". An abacus (or a tree) also doesn't have any optical circuits - but it's still not affected by an EMP.

And so I would say, as a brain isn't very vulnerable against EMP, a Technomancer's brain still isn't. That this brain does the same work as comlink doesn't change anything. A human's brain can already do the same as a calculator (and more), but that doesn't mean that the human needs batteries

I would have an EMP do absolutely nothing to a TM.

Edit: What Irian said

Clarification request

Are you saying the TM Signal ie wireless signal would be immune to effects of EMP?

WMS

Just looking up the wikipedia entry for an EMP and Electromagnetic Bomb, the technomancer himself would be fine as he does not possess any vacuum tubes, integrated circuits, transistors, or inductors (unless of course he get cyberware installed). It would be the same as hitting a person with bioware with an EMP...nothing.

BUT the area would flood with EM radiation which would act as a jamming field. You might even house rule it to be like a mana storm from Street Magic until Unwired comes out.

Now if you wanted some sort of defense against it for your ware, I would suggest a Faraday Cage. Not having the electrical engineering background I don't know how much room you need between the cage wall and any electronics so the essence cost could be so high as to not be practical.

EMPs interrupt signal's, and fry non-optical circuits.

Technomancer's have no circuits to fry, but their signal would be temporarily disrupted. It should be handled as normal, and if the technomancer's signal would be reduced to out of range of any device they are interacting with, they loose connection. There is nothing stopping them from simply reconnecting their next pass, however (although it may require re-hacking in if there is no back door)

EDIT:
Correction to the above

/EDIT


Unwired has been out for 2 days.

Yeah sorry about that, I reread the announcement minutes after my post. I thought both the PDF and hardcover (I don't buy pdf's as I hate really reading from them) came out on July 29th.

But there really should be a signal test, since ECCM is suppose to cut through jamming and disruption.

One note and or point, if a current human brain had copper electrodes into the various areas of the brain but outside the skull into a antenna, would an EMP have any effect.

I know from personal work experience that the above conditions would not be allowed in a MRI, with a patient.

EMP Wiki



Now since how exactly TM's transmit signal is yet as of today been defined......

Any signal needs some type/kind of antenna to transmit the signal any distance. An Antenna wired into your brain will pick up the voltage and current surges from an EMP. These voltages are in 100's of volts and current surges in the 10's of amps.

Now the precise effects of voltages in microvolts/microamp, is known today, in the correct areas of the brain applications of microvolts/microamp can stimulate that area of the brain, in some cases bringing up past memories.

Voltages in the volt/amp or greater will cause damage to brain tissue.

So a TM will have a circuit to fry, his brain circuits.

Back to the main question does a TM have a antenna in his brain? if so the effects of a EMP will affect him/her.

One note again the Devs have repeatedly state that TM are not mages, nor do they use magical things.

WMS

Ah ... missed the question re: the TM's signal, I was talking primarily about the Living Persona being effected like an un-hardened commlink might be.

The book does not say EMPs damage technomancers, and so they do not. Simple as that. End of argument.


Now, I will attempt to explain why it does not.

Every human has an electrical field surrounding their body, and operates by sending electrical signals through their nervous system. An electromagnetic pulse does not affect these systems in any way significant, and possibly does not affect them at all. This means that an EMP will not affect bioelectric systems. A technomancer works exactly the same way, except his/her abilities are expanded. As it is still purely biological, there are no circuits to fry.

An electromagnetic pulse will disrupt a technomancer's signal the same way it disrupts any signal, but it will not otherwise harm a technomancer beyond what it would anyone else.

Yes but in a world where EM spikes are quite common I would think a Technomacer would be resistant to changes in background EM. Also the "Antenna" is not in or directly part of the brain but the entire body. Do EMPs do any thing to you? even if you where 10 times more effected by them I really don't think it would kill you.

Please note my example of cooper wires implanted into a human brain and the effects of voltages/current via those wires.

Your example is good except for the lack of a wired antenna into the brain.

As for your first statement

WMS

Copper is a very effective conductor, far more so than biological tissue. There are no copper anything in a technomancer to make him function. There is also no 'wired' anything in a technomancer, so your point is moot.

Temporary interference from the EMP, and one hell of a migraine is about all I'd do to any Techies in my group.

Maybe some stun damage if they were really close.

Does an EMP affect the Signal of a normal comlink (except by damaging the comlink itself, of course)? If yes, then the TM's signal would be affected as well - seems likely. The only difference is, that the TM's "hardware" can't get damaged by the EMP (except for EMPs that will damage normal humans as well, of course).

You mean like the EMPs that occure from Nuclear Blasts?

That is one source of EMP but in the Current RL and SR4 it is not the only source of EMP. IIRC it was first noted after nuclear explosian.

WMS

I did a short Google search and somebody wrote that a very energy-intensive EMP (or something like that) could possibly damage human cells. Don't know if that's true, but if there were an EMP strong enough to damage humans, it would of course also damage TMs.

Muspellsheimr
Yes that is a very correct statement but this is also, humans do not transmit or receive wireless signals, nor can they jam signals. But in the Game of Shadowrun 4 a particular segment of the Metahuman/Human species does. Again the Devs have not stated how these beings perform these feats of electromagnetic alteration/transmission. So until the Devs come clean, nothing is set in stone.


Yes but human beings are basically salt water an excellant conductor. Our skin makes for a partially effective insulator against most minor electrical forces. Electrical forces can use other things than copper, like the air if conditions are correct enough.

Without the Handwavium of Magic, that means a Technomancer has to follow/subscribe to current needs of RF transmission, ie an Antenna to send and receive electromagnetic photons. For now I call this antenna the TM Antenna with is both passive and active array the best features of a Electronically scanned array and a Phased array. For now this TM Antenna uses the TM's entire Nervous System ie CNS and Peripheral.

One feature that most if not all antenna perform is to gather or collect the electromagnetic photons and concentrate them into much larger electromagnetic potential. Like a Parabolic mirror concentrating sunlight at a fixed focal point, several orders of magnitude that it normally is. This means the normally insignificant to normal beings EMP burst, is several orders of magnitude of greater electromotive force/photons. This amplified/magnified electromotive force is what I am speaking of affecting the Nervous System of the TM.

Interesting attempt to end a discussion but the same token it never specifically excludes them either. But with those words I see many here discussing what is or not said and how it was said in RAW. So discussions of such is a valid thread topic, and the many topics here show that. That you for you "Valued" input.

WMS

Except in very, very rare cases.

And, yes, I've seen it happen with my own two eyes.

True IIRC most of these involved some kind of dental implants/filling interacting with body fluids etc.

I did have a Senior Chief Petty Officer that could crash my entire Computer Room(7 pieces of Equipment) for my Guided Missile System if he stayed longer than 10 minutes in the room. His words was the System does not like him.

But I believe the TM are in greater numbers than the Very, Very, Rare cases. But again the Devs are not real forth coming or consistent in the numbers game.

WMS

Most of the damage from a real-life EMP comes from circuits that are not able to handle that much energy going through them. Transistors and things that either act like them (like vacuum tubes) or are made of a gazillion of them (like integrated circuits) use very little energy, so when a LOT goes through them, well, pop.

There are also waveguides to consider. A waveguide is used to ... well, it's used to guide waves. It can amplify signals of certain wavelengths, boosting the signal of a transmission (incoming or outgoing, but we're talking incoming, here). It's used in radios, radar, and basically stuff with an antenna. If you take a high energy wave and boost it, well, that's a lot of power in one place, so it can also be susceptible to EMP. [EDIT: corrected graciously by WMS.]

Most of the damage to electronics in an EMP is to small circuits and waveguides. Obviously, technomancers don't have transistors. They might have waveguides, though; it depends on how they create and receive wireless signals.

BOY!!! do you have waveguides WRONG!!!!. Waveguides amplify nothing, it is merely a transmission method/medium. Microwave amplifiers are Klystrons, Magnetrons, and Traveling Wave Tubes aka TWATS.

Klystron
Magnetron
Traveling Wave Tube

Waveguide Wiki


As quoted above fiber optic is a "waveguide". Yes a "Waveguide" can have booster/minor amps/repeaters but not in the waveguide.
Waveguides are not the "working part" of an antenna array, yes they can carry the signals.

Boosting Microwaves is a entirely different method/manner than fiber optic.

Again Aaron let me implant wires into your brain, let say cerebral cortex, and then run you into a MRI. Lets see how many volts your cerebral cortex's brain cells can take.

Again the TMA (TechnoMancer Antenna) is used to gathering microvolts of signal, putting 100 of volts of signal across a TMA, results in the TM getting a "Signal" of magnitudes greater than his TMA can deal with. Meaning his CNS takes a shock to say the least. Since unlike most SR4 devices a TM has no fuse or circuit breaker to stop the flow of excessive electrons.

Also most microwave class waveguides are not affected by EMP due in part to the copper interior sheathing, conducts away the charge to some other component in the chain. The BaseBall switches will not be affected, the microwave amps could be affected. The active and or discrete components in the antenna array can also be affected. Fiber optic waveguides are not affected either due to be optical.

Also here a link to the various sizes of waveguides used in radio frequency/microwaves.
Rectangular Waveguides

WMS

By not being included at all, it is specifically excluded from RAW. Unclear sections are viable topics for debate. Non-existent sections are viable area's for house rules. By RAW, technomancers are, aside from brief signal interruption, unaffected by EMPs. If you want to house rule it, fine. But do so in a way that does not present it as a RAW argument.

Right now your entire argument is based upon anything capable of receiving signal's will be damaged by an EMP. This is true only if you consider brief interruption of a signal as damage, as shown by optics. We may never know how a real-life response a technomancer will have to an EMP, but for game purposes, bio-electric operations function identically to optics in regard to electromagnetism.

Ah but RAW disagrees on that.

What page does it state that TM are exempted from EMP?

RAW also never states that a TM is affected by signal interruption caused by EMP. So by your above house rule they are immune to signal interruption. Make up your mind, RAW one way and not RAW another way.

Also all optical based devices with antennas are affected by EMP. Most of the time the signal range decreased.

TM's ability to transmit and receive is not disclosed, the only hard input from the Devs is that it is not Magic.

WMS

An EMP, by RAW, temporarily disrupts wireless signals in it's range. No exceptions listed, no exceptions made. Techomancer signals are included.

An EMP, by RAW, damages all non-hardened, non-optic electronics in it's range - exceptions to damage are clear, exceptions made. A technomancer is not an electronic device, and so is not included in what is affected.

An EMP, by RAW, does not have any special effects listed regarding technomancers, and as such, technomancers do not take damage or any other special effect from an EMP.

Once again, if there is no reference to an effect, it is specifically excluded from RAW. If there is an unclear reference to an effect, it is viable for debate on what is RAW and what is not. There is no reference at all to a technomancer taking damage from an EMP, meaning such an effect is not RAW.

I have made no house rules in any of my posts above, nor have I made any contradictory statements.

Unwired, page 135: Consitently refers to the Technomancers as the "biological node" or "Organic Pan" or "biological PAN" or other combinations. We also see it reference that only another Technomancer or a Sprite may Hack a Technomancer. Since the EMP specificaly states that it effects electronics, then we must conclude that biological is electronic.

That said, Technomancers ARE susceptible to Jamming. However, jamming is just about the signal. So, no, the Technomancer, not being electronic, is not damaged by an EMP.

From a flavor perspective, I would be inclined to say that they might find it disconcerting, but that is a role play issue, not something for game mechanics.

However, let's go a little further, shall we?

Unwired page 136 talks about hacking the Biological PAN. THings it specifically mentions is that the Biological PAN is NOT the Technomancer's brain. If it is crashed, there are rules for a -2 disorientation and vertigo penalty until they can "reboot."(Reboot rules, SR4, page 221)

Thus, if you were to do ANYTHING to Technomancers for an EMP, I would be inclined to say this would be the rule you would use, arguing that the EMP effectively overloads the connection and makes them drop offline as if they had been "crashed." However, that falls very much into the "iffy" category.

Oh, good. I was hoping Mr. Radar Repair Guy would chime in.

I admit it: my knowledge of radar comes from my dad, who did your job when he was in the Air Force, and so may be flawed. But now that you're making big long posts, how about giving an explanation of what gets damaged when electronics get hit with an EMP?

[EDIT: I think I was thinking about directional antennas, which do use a waveguide to amplify a signal.]

So how do they pick up the RF transmissions of the Wireless Matrix? Antennae are just tuned inductors. Now, none of this is canon, since no one has said that TMs aren't magic radios, but I don't think the inferences and insinuations support anything but radio wave propagation for the method of connecting the TM to other devices.

That being the case, the TM *does* have inducting elements in their head and overloading them with broad-spectrum RF will generate heat and therefore potential damage. TMs are *different* to normal human beings: we don't have aerials in our head.


EM doesn't hang around. Yes it would flood the area for the duration of the EM burst (maybe milliseconds if we're talking some sort of explosive 'pinch') plus as long as light-speed propagation took to carry the photons outbound (you know, microseconds). There isn't going to be any RF re-radiation unless your EM was really high energy and chucking out high speed neutrons that might make some short half-life radioisotopes out of the environment that will decay, emmitting gamma and beta that would fog the EM spectrum, or if you warmed things up enough for thermionic emission in normal comms bands. But at that point your radio comms is the least of your worries, cos you just got nuked. You might get as significant increase in the millimetre band if stuff got a lot warmer. But radio waves don't hang about.


There are plenty of ways of hardening electronics against EMP; milspec gear has been (where necessary) pretty much proof against it for more than a century by the time TMs roll round. Faraday cage with a dielectric between it and the protected elemets is one way to go. No need to have a power-rated ground it if you tag a large capacitor to the cage, and let that trickle its charge away safely when the cage isn't under bombardment.

Well thanks but I shall attempt to refrain posting such. DataSearch is a most valuable tool even in todays world. Plenty of sites, some going into extreme levels of detail are on the web, find one that can speak in terms you can understand.

Did your Dad do airframe based radars or land based?

WMS

Seriously, I was hoping you'd chime in on this topic. If you don't want to, then don't, that's cool, too, though.


All of the above.