 Running 'runner teams composed entirely of 'mages', Any problems, thoughts, etc....? |
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 Dec 16 2003, 01:13 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 30-August 03 Member No.: 5,555  |
Well, another generic 'question' thread from moi...
I'm soon to be running a campaign which is composed exclusively - at least in terms of the PCs, of course - of magic users, whether those are Aspected Mages or Adepts (there are at present no full mages). No Shaman out of personal preference since with the exception of the more abstract ones presented in MitS I'm not overtly comfortable with them (and the MitS ones I just find intriguing)... Has anyone run this type of campaign before (I would say obviously, but you've got to ask) and, if so, do you have any advice? What overt problems would you expect? How would the opposition be reasonbly stacked if they have foreknowledge of the nature of the group? I'm sure that there re other questions, but I thought that I would just get this posted and see what kind of response there is... Kage :wobble: |
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Dec 16 2003, 02:43 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 973 Joined: 3-October 03 Member No.: 5,677 |
Main problem would be if you go up against guys who have initiative mods that allow them to go MUCH earlier in the turn than you. :silly: Other than that, probably not much that I can think of. :D
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Dec 16 2003, 02:50 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 16-April 02 From: DC Member No.: 2,605 |
You'll probably need to NPC a decker. Athough I've always wanted to try a physad decker if the group has one, I'm sure you'll do find. I've GMed for a group composed almost entirely of mages before. They started their own initiatory magical group and lots of the story was centered around that. You'll have plenty of metaplane runs, and you can really go all out on them because all the group could be present. Hope this helps
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Dec 16 2003, 02:56 PM
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#4
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
I love pure magic-user campaigns. :P We're about to run an 'Ultimate' game and so far we have 7 characters turned in, all Magic Users except 1. Looks like it'll be more fun than the half/magic group. :P Seriously, as wonderful as a Sammie can be, anything a Sammie can do, so can a Mage, so I think a game is improved by a high number of magic users.
As far as problems... None if the GM knows the rules well. :P Sphynx |
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Dec 16 2003, 03:00 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 30-August 03 Member No.: 5,555 |
Every little bit helps! There is an NPC decker although they are not part of the 'team' per se, but rather a valued 'contact' who shares a number of similar interests. And, yes, the group is ultimately going to form their own initiation group and, indeed, for me personally this is actually required. (The karmic/magical links thus created mimic the concept of a Group True Pattern... there are, or will, be two sub-campaigns running in parallel with each other: one set in the SR game world, the other set in the ED game world, and both tell different aspects of the same overall story.) I was hoping to integrate the metaplanes, but with exactly no astrally projecting characters nor anyone capable of summoning an ally spirit (at this point) they're going to run into at least some initial difficulties. That is, however, something that the group themselves are going to have to figure out rather than my handing everthing to them on a plate... Given the games main setting in the UK, I'm also hoping to include some of the rather interesting information form TNN as well as linking features to TT, especially since they also link in with the ED side of things... Sorry, that probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I don't want to go into too much detail in one post!
<grin> There is always that and, to be honest, I'm getting to grips with the core rules (and the changes from SR2 to SR3)... but there is always room for improvement! ;)
That was one definite thing and the continued weakness of 'mages' in the game. They also have a distinct lack of ability in conjuration and summoning, which is something that can in the long-term be exploited by opposition who are in the know. Out of interest, 6thDragon, how did you balance the 'opposition' between blunts/mundanes and the Awakened? Once again many thanks... I appreciate it. Kage |
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Dec 16 2003, 03:15 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Cleveland-Akron Sprawl Member No.: 1,200 |
As far as what targets would do with any sort of knowledge that a magic-heavy team was on the way, CorpSec covers a lot of the anti-runner toys out there and mentions a few magic-specific ones (e.g. FAB, wards, living walls/mesh/nets, anchored spells, astral patrols, paranimals, etc.). If you've got it, break it out again and give it a once-over. If not, then think of the really cheap basics...
1. Smoke grenades. LOS spells don't work well absent LOS. 20m of spell-free joy for 2 rounds. Go with IR smoke if your security can "see" through other means. 2. Flash-paks. +4 TNs to anyone facing the flash-pak. +2 TNs otherwise due to the strobe effect. The last thing a mage needs is trouble concentrating or seeing his target. 3. Standard physical security. Mages are really good at handling a lot of things, but few can outrun normal guards, defeat a mediocre maglock, or get over a wall quickly. Of course, if the target facility in question knows that runners are coming, they'll increase security across the board. If they know that a largely awakened group is involved, they'll stack specifically for it. They may be very interested in getting their hands on any awakened subjects for research or possibly re-education, too. If the target in question has no such idea that any particular threat or type of threat is involved, then security should be no more than is normally reasonable given the circumstances. |
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Dec 16 2003, 03:31 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 16-April 02 From: DC Member No.: 2,605 |
It's been many years since I ran the campaign composed primarily of mages. However, I remember throwing them up against just about all the magical rarities, without any concerns for their safety (blood spirits, insect spirits, plenty of paranormal criters, the occational dragon). It's definitely odd that you don't have any mages capable of astral projection. That'll definately be their achilles' heel. If I remember correctly, a mage in the astral plan can still attack a mage on the physical plane if they have an active foci. You're team can make up for this with elementals, but you should still exploit this. Physical and electronic security will also be a challenge for the team, but not too big a deal. Most mages aren't exactly experts at getting through maglocks and such. As far as balancing opposition between mages and mundanes. I leaned more toward mages, but I stuck to the approach I always use when setting up the opposition. Strength-in-numbers!!! :D
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Dec 16 2003, 04:33 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 30-August 03 Member No.: 5,555 |
I'm afraid not. I only acquired a few sourcebooks back in SR2 days and, beyond the 'core' books for SR3 (Core, MitS, CC) I've avoided spending too much money on the game. The specific feel of the SR game system is the only thing - well, that and laziness - that has prevented me from simply converting the world over to GURPS and be done with it... It certainly would make things easier with the Earthdawn sub-campaign! ;)
Good suggestions there. The first and second I'd already figured, though astral perception is the obvious way around the first one. As to the third, the players are actually thinking of this already. I'm just waiting for the point that they figure out that they can actually hire someone specifically for a job if they're willing to trust the 'newbie'...
Exactly. And to be fair an entire wizz-group would most likely be hired for their talents... An argument can be found either way to argue the presence or absence of 'anti-mage' security (i.e. they're hired because of their abilities to deal with this or they are hired because the opposition shouldn't stand a chance in hell). But in terms of opposition it's most likely a learning curve... they'll eventually hit it! <grin>
I believe one player is currently thinking about the 'combat mage' imagery, so that might give them some limited projection abilities.
I thought that was the old SR2 rules? AFAIK a foci is imprinted with the astral signature of the bonded mage and, as such, can be used for astral tracking. I presume they can also be used as a material link for ritual magic and that, on the astral plane, a focus can be 'dispelled' by actually attacking the begger... But I thought the whole grounding of a spell through the focus was no longer possible. The magic-user in question would have to be astrally projecting or perceiving to become a potential victim by someone astrally projecting?
With the problem, at the moment, that they have no ability to conjure whatsoever. The Combat Mage, if that goes forward, might have something but they're also going to have their work cut out with them dealing with the other short-falls of the group.
I think that the players were used to this concept as a surprising number (read: tedious number) took Priority A in resources just for the lovely pleasure of having Increased Reflexes Sustaining Foci... Obviously a dependence on foci can be problematic (hence MitS' Focus Addiction), what are the most obvious methods by which one can destabilise the 'power base' of a mage? Not only to get foci 'off' them, but to keep them on the hop as much as possible? Kage |
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Dec 16 2003, 04:42 PM
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#9
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Actually, my currently fresh PBP game called "Vampires of Seattle" is made up entirely of magically active characters. HMHMVV infected ones, true, but magically active nonetheless.
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Dec 16 2003, 04:59 PM
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#10
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I ran an alternate saga once where the players were all members of the Dunkelzahn Institute of Magical Research, and all but one (the token mundane muscle) were magically active. But since it wasn't a traditional Shadowrun game -- the players were sent on missions all over the world to look for ancient relics, break into museums and mansions to recover stolen artifacts, and things like that -- it's kind of hard to give advice as I had more freedom in creating tailored opposition for the group.
Well sure, you're free to do the same in a standard game (including both of the examples of "runs" I gave above), but most shadowruns deal with corporate espionage and that sort of thing. That didn't come up very often here, and the characters were well sponsored, albeit still deniable assets. But I'm rambling now. The best advice I can give for a game like this is: Don't do anything you wouldn't normally do. Keep the opposition at exactly the same level as you would before -- at least in the beginning until their reputation starts to demand better runs -- and let them figure out how to get around their weaknesses and how to exploit their strengths. There's no such thing as an "unbalanced team." "Unbalanced teams" tend to be the most fun to be in, as you do often have a significant weakness that you have to figure out how to cover. Thinking is the best part of gaming... so just let the players think their way through things and keep the opposition sensible for whatever run they've been hired for. |
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Dec 16 2003, 04:59 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 30-August 03 Member No.: 5,555 |
And have you found any particular quirks other than those mentioned above?
This is similar to some of the adventures that comprise the Shadowrun sub-campaign. Indeed, following the prologue of the first adventure the characters are hired to recover an artefact from the archaeological site of Takht-e Sulaiman or, depending on character actions, an associated museum... Corporations do figure, but then so to do the politics of the Awakened nations and the overall concepts of at least some of the features of the metaplanes. But thats the 'ole trumpet blowing again, so I'll leave it there.
I think that is sound advice, although I will no doubt exploit their weaknesses when I feel they would be exploited. Along with dangling it in front of their metaphorical faces if the situation demands. Not in a nasty way, just a narrative way... Kage |
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Dec 16 2003, 05:03 PM
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#12
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Since it has yet to go anywhere; no.
If anybody in my game reads this spoiler, I'll shoot you dead. [ Spoiler ]
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Dec 16 2003, 05:16 PM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 30-August 03 Member No.: 5,555 |
<grin> I had the same thought, but then went with a 'what the heck'. Part of the campaign is designed around the manipulation of the boundaries between player and character knowledge anyway. ;) Kage |
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Dec 16 2003, 05:26 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Cleveland-Akron Sprawl Member No.: 1,200 |
Fun with anchored spells:
1. Astral barrier: Not only is it handy for keeping dual-natured critters out of certain areas, it'll keep astral spies and active foci out, too. Place these along corridors wherever you please and they'll cause no end of trouble for focus-happy characters. Added bonus: adds force to TN to cast at targets through the astral barrier. 2. Phantasm or Trid Phantasm: What's cheaper than a real security system and works almost as well? A sign that says you have one! A couple of guards here, a paranimal there, a drone or two mulling about... It'll slow the characters down and either have them disbelieving everything the see or assuming everything is an illusion. This one isn't just for the mages, of course. 3. Mask or Physical Mask: Doors, windows, cameras, etc... they suddenly look like normal walls. 4. Detect Object + Physical Barrier or any debilitating illusion: If anyone tries to take the goody through the door, a barrier pops up and detains them until security can arrive or the characters get whomped with blindness, confusion, or something else similarly debilitating. 5. Detect Magic + Magic Fingers: A person walks through the affected area and, if they have any active spells or foci, the Magic Fingers spell triggers and pulls the alarm for that area (complete with corresponding lockdown of the area and whatever else you care to have conected to it). This is a great one for those who rely on physical mask or improved invisibility too much. This is a very limited sample of what you can do. The trigger-based expendable anchors are especially fun. Just remember that an unsuspecting or unthinking corporate employee may set off one of these too and the corp wouldn't want them dying needlessly, so detainment and non-lethal harm will be the primary objectives. |
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Dec 16 2003, 05:53 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 30-August 03 Member No.: 5,555 |
Yep, got that one. Thanks for the summary, however. It's given me thoughts on how to use it in other situations... ;)
I'm reminded of Goodkind's 'first rule of wizardry' for some reason... well, that and the English's actions with "poisoned wells" in Africa to prevent German raids against their depots... It is definitely what people think is the case, not necessarily is.
Which depends on how paranoid the players are since, unless Masked, they would show up as spells on the astral. Which raises a relevant question. How common would Initiate-level spells/focus be?
Ooh, hadn't thought of that one.
But one which has inspired me. I shall have to dwell upon the spell list a bit more and rub my hands maniacally together to set the proper mood... ;)
And what, in your opinion, are truly effective anti-mage non-lethal devices? Kage |
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Dec 16 2003, 06:56 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Cleveland-Akron Sprawl Member No.: 1,200 |
Many effective anti-mage spells are resisted by strength or increase TNs. Spells like Decrease Attribute (Strength), Cause Allergy, Intoxication, Mass Blindness, Net, and Lock are pretty nasty. Decrease Attribute is especially harmful to mages, most of whom can barely carry the clothes on their backs without breaking into a sweat - and that's when they're at their best.
A final tip for any GM, not just one dealing with mages: use encumberance. PCs really can't carry half of a warehouse with them everywhere they go... |
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Dec 16 2003, 07:02 PM
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#17
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Troll Combat Mages can. :silly:
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Dec 16 2003, 07:09 PM
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#18
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
OK, here's a yummy listing of non-lethal stuff to use on stereotypical mage-boys.
Atropine CS/Tear Gas Hyper Nausea Gas Pepper Punch They all do things to whack out TNs, thus making anything difficult. Hyper is especially mean when combined with something else that causes Stun, because then they take the normal Stun, then half of that due to Hyper. Edit: These can all be found in Man and Machine in the section with all the drugs and chemicals and such. |
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Dec 16 2003, 11:27 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
I just had a thought...a group of all mages are gonna stand out like a beacon in the astral until they get the masking metamagic technique. Astral signatures and ritual spellcasting aginst them could be a bugger! Heaven help 'em if any of 'em get shot and bleed on the floor if they are dealing with a AA mega or higher! Astral Chameleon and Poor Link might be good advantages to take.
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Dec 16 2003, 11:32 PM
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#20
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
A mundane blood splatter is just as easy to ritually manabolt as that of a mage. They are not more visible from the astral except when astrally percieving or projecting, though their methods may draw such attention (astral sig as the result of a method).
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Dec 17 2003, 12:38 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 142 Joined: 2-December 03 Member No.: 5,871 |
BumsofTacoma thinks to himself........ (You'll have to imagine the wavery dream lines)
4-6 physical adepts running around together......and shivers. Then he thinks to himself of 4-6 mages/shamans (imagine wavery flames) "SWEEEEEEEEET JEEEEESUS! NOOOOOOOOO!!!!"..........and wheeps........... :dead: |
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Dec 17 2003, 02:29 AM
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#22
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Kage2020: Just what is your problem with Shamanic characters?
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Dec 17 2003, 02:34 AM
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#23
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Yes...
Spider is telling me to cast "Slay BumsofTacoma" right now. *looks around* ...What? |
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Dec 17 2003, 03:52 AM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 6-February 03 Member No.: 4,020 |
The game I am running now has an Owl Shaman, a follower of Horus, and a cybered sorcerer( my NPC). I have only done a few runs but have many planned. It is a little different than past games, but is a lot of fun. I can tell you it wouldn't work with all groups but I highly recommend it if you can find the right people.
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Dec 17 2003, 04:18 AM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 30-August 03 Member No.: 5,555 |
First off, my apologies for not replying to the other interesting posts here. It's 4am and my brain is beginning to gradually sink into that point which says "Neeeeddd sleeeepppp..." I'll reply to Fortune here, however... So, the answer to your question is... Well, nothing really. Shamans are actually fascinating... especially when one considers the 'real life' applications. I just find more of an appeal to the abstract 'totems' found in MitS. This is partially because I'm concentrating the sub-campaign in north-western Europen, but also... Damn. Bias. Every time that I've seen a mage they've ended up over-shadowing everyone else partially because of their ability to summon spirits on the spot. TAANSTAFL springs to mind: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. But with Shaman for some reason that has always seemed the case. Yes, I know... It's a bias. But one that is present in roleplaying. With heretics it just seems to be in the 'roll-playing' more than anything else. Oh yes... and another point. I would rather only deal with one type of spirit/elemental at this early juncture! ;) Kage |
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