Vice, Sex drugs and rock'n roll Options

[CanRay]

Nah, you got GoblinRock and Orxploitation and DwarfCore and ElvenAngst music and all that.

JETBLACK LIVES!!!

[Tabula Rasa]

Umm...if we're not "wired that way", how come stuff like Seirra Leone happens? Cambodia? Burma/Myanmar? The atrocities of the Japanese occupation? The Cultural Revolution? Yugoslavian ethnic cleansing? How about the good ol' US street ghetto and all the things we as a country do to makes sure they exist?

All I can say to absolutely ridiculous bold font section above is, "Read your history, bro..."

Do you think any of those places are ideal for doing business or have what we would consider a healthy economy? The answer is no. When you do not have a stable society and people do not feel safe and they think their resources (including their own body) can be taken at will by anyone because there are no laws protecting them you do not have an environment for good business.

So if megas allowed their enclaves to sink to the level of debauchery we are talking about here they would make significantly less money than any mega with the sense to follow successful economic history and emphasize the need for a civil society with laws protecting each citizen's resources.

[CanRay]

Ah, but he's not talking about the Enclaves.

He's talking about "Day Trips" out of the Enclaves into the Lawless Lands on the outside, now, isn't he?

And anyhow, if the person affected is SINless, there has been no crime. That person does not have citizenship, and, thus, no protection at all from the Law, or rights in any way.

[Chrysalis]

I think you are wrong there. Megacorps have as much interest as any nation to ensure there are laws against immoral conduct. Raping a prostitute and then beating her to death is NOT acceptable just because it doesn't affect the bottom line. A) it tarnishes the reputation of the corporation. Nobody wants to buy from "Those Debauched Fucks ™". B) it upsets the other citizens. How would you feel if your cowokers routinely raped 14 year olds and all of upper management knew about it but did nothing? Society demands these things be punished and "society" still exists withing a corporate context.

Common "moral" laws are necessary to manage the internal morale and behaviour of staff. If anything, megacorps are far more likely to have MORE laws than states. Think of the japanacorps that rigidly control their employees. You think Renraku is gonna let it slide that Tetsuo in accounting likes to rape hookers? That would be shameful.

Anyway, I could go on, but point is you can't not have moral laws. Humans aren't wired that way.

Bullshit. Dyncorp's head in Kosovo, Hirtz, would give a fourteen year old girl as a gift for every new member in Kosovo. They traded them like kids trade Pokemon cards. I have yet to see Dyncorp not getting contacts from the Pentagon. Halliburton has been implicated in human trafficking.

Besides I really doubt I would see corp. sponsored media going out and giving fair and unbiased reportage on their dirty laundry. Biting the hand that feeds and all that.

Also the more laws in place the more constrained corps are. With fair and equal laws it means workers also have rights. People are the need and the corps are the panacea.

[Tabula Rasa]

Ah, but he's not talking about the Enclaves.

He's talking about "Day Trips" out of the Enclaves into the Lawless Lands on the outside, now, isn't he?

And anyhow, if the person affected is SINless, there has been no crime. That person does not have citizenship, and, thus, no protection at all from the Law, or rights in any way.

If you are talking about "day trips" then bringing up world strife areas is a ridiculous way to make your point. People don't go to African war zones to get their jollies. People living in those areas do the horrific things they do because of the living conditions in the area. They aren't like that because westerners - or wealthy people in general - like to go there to take part in the underground sex-trade.

Now if you are talking about a corp citizen going out to the Barrens to get his serial killing rape on then I would request that you think about it a little more and realize that unless that person has a fair amount of money and gives it to the right people he is more likely to be the one getting raped and having his money taken.

But even saying that this "day tripper" is smooth at doing what he does he better hide it because it lowers productivity when the coworkers have to be worried about the child-raping monster working in the cube one over and they are worried about their children walking in his neighborhood.

Social unrest is a huge problem when you are trying to be efficient. Just look at China and how fast they try to crack down on big obvious contributors to social unrest, such as executing the head of their food safety agency.

If you are trying to attract top talent, if you want your employees thinking about work instead of other stuff, if you want an efficient workforce, you'll make sure you don't have any child-raping murderer's, cannibals, or any other dregs of society openly working for you or else you won't have any of the former.

And it's important to note the difference between occasional stuff that gets revealed and openly not caring about that sort of stuff.

[hyzmarca]

"Maybe this "being evil all the time" crap's just starting to feel a little forced. "
"Take it easy Wesley, you just hit the same wall we all hit after the first few months."
"What?"
"You really think we just go around fucking shit up all the time? This is a global business, man. We got out fingers in a little piece of everything and that means you gotta be disciplined. You don't have time to rape, kill, and mutilate people all the time, baby."

Really, cutting out that scene is one of the worst mistakes that the studio made when converting Wanted to the big screen. It demonstrates very well one important fact - rape and murder just for the fun of it is boring. At first, you have that visceral thrill of breaking social taboos and giving the world a big Fuck You. But that thrill quickly fades. One becomes desensitized. The exotically deviant becomes the every-day mundane and there is just no point to it. Escalating it doesn't work, because once you're out there spree killing in your spare time there is nothing left to escalate to. They won't be enduring popular pastimes for that reason alone. Also they're tacky, like wearing white after labor day.

The Dyncorp thing isn't rape or murder. It's about employing the services of prostitutes for companionship. It is rare for anyone to get hurt in such arrangements and it is good for the economy. Men and women, in real life, do take vacations to third world countries for inexpensive exotic sex. Again, it isn't about rape or power. It is usually just a mutually beneficial companionship arrangement, though the risk of disease tends to be high due to the unregulated nature of the industry.

[Tabula Rasa]

Never mind...

[hyzmarca]

Never mind...

Well now, I'm curious.

It is common courtesy , when editing out an argument that you feel was a mistake, to replace it with some piece of BS so people who come it late don't notice that you did edit it. The need to know is torture, it is. It's worse than the iron maiden (Iron Maiden, Excellent! *Air Guitars*).

And that is another related issue. Information is, itself, a vice. This goes far beyond voyeurism. The need to know and the need to hoard knowledge drives some to great extremes, risking their lives and the lives of others for fleeting scraps of information. In a kill or be killed world where knowledge is power the information junkie is both the most dangerous of enemies and the most dangerous of friends.

[Tabula Rasa]

Sorry, if you really need to know, I intended to post on my favorite manufacturer of Fontina cheese in my cheese aficionado forum but it ended up here by accident. >.>'

[hermit]

Warning! Evil Stuff inside. EVIL, I tell you!

[ Spoiler ]

Maybe power is not the correct word. While power is an aspect I would see that fantasy is far more powerful. The ability to pay money for the ability to fuck a girl who you could not drives directly into fantasy aspects. The idea that one hour out of your week you can go from a normal to whatever fantasy you desire. Whatever that fantasy is, whether it is simply having an hour of someone hugging you and listening to you ramble on about your crap job and your bitch wife. Sex is only part, it is about fantasy, even if that fantasy is companionship.

Exactly. However, I don't nescessarily see why this has to be about 14 year olds.

Corp Courtesans and Otomo Fuckdrones can be completly corp controlled - either via spyware or via a snake eyes interface and personafixes, maybe even an advanced biodrone harness). No need for joe worker to go to the friendly local Mafia brothel and blather out some company secrets. Keeps it all nice and in the family.

Jumping to something similar, I was thinking about corporate judiciality. If it is not expressly forbidden in corporate law then it is not illegal. And if there is no law against it you can do it. Almost every country in the world has a minimum legal age. As corporate law is not morality but about profitability I suspect that very few corporations if any have in their constitution either caveats that allow local laws or then a mention of legal age.

Actually, one of the more recent German novels is pretty much about a kiddie porn ring operating out of Horizon Munich and the upper management looking the other way, so long as noone really rubs it up thier noses (in the end, it IS rubbed up their noses, they fire the ring's 'hub' guy, and let someone else take his place). So yes, especially the media/entertainment heavy corps (HELLO, Horizion!) are propably having some seriously disturbing ventures in hard porn. Especially Horizon, actually, considering how they're so on the edge with newest media and matrix subculture fads ... because, after all, pedophiles are another matrix subculture (although, like Nazi policlubbers, a less popular one) and as such, a nice target market; furthermore, it provides great blackmail material, should Horizon need to out'wit' a competitor again.

Also, I personally always considered most corp enclaves having their very own brothels and courtesans for company personnel there. Keeps it all in the family. Besides, since the corp makes it's own laws, they could totally legalise corp prostitution, make it a career like any other (till the meat's past it's due date, as you formulated so nicely, propably with some fresh-up treatment, much like regular meat sold in supermarkets usually gets past it's due date at least twice these days) for aspiring young corporate girls. Again, I especially see Horizon involved there - though the Japanacorps, especially MCT and Shiawase, propably form joint ventures with local Yaks for similar services (and other Megas propably cannot afford to fall behind there. Work Contracts, especially in harsh and/or remoe locales, might even contain a guaranteed sex per week quota, to encourage workers and keep them mentally stable.

I think you are wrong there. Megacorps have as much interest as any nation to ensure there are laws against immoral conduct. Raping a prostitute and then beating her to death is NOT acceptable just because it doesn't affect the bottom line. A) it tarnishes the reputation of the corporation. Nobody wants to buy from "Those Debauched Fucks ™". B) it upsets the other citizens. How would you feel if your cowokers routinely raped 14 year olds and all of upper management knew about it but did nothing? Society demands these things be punished and "society" still exists withing a corporate context.

Common "moral" laws are necessary to manage the internal morale and behaviour of staff. If anything, megacorps are far more likely to have MORE laws than states. Think of the japanacorps that rigidly control their employees. You think Renraku is gonna let it slide that Tetsuo in accounting likes to rape hookers? That would be shameful.

Anyway, I could go on, but point is you can't not have moral laws. Humans aren't wired that way.

Sorry, no. If humanity had a built-in moral compass, what would we need laws and all the other costly and demanding ventures of the judiciary for? It's more like that humanity has to constantly work (pretty hard) to keep it's lack of such a built-in moral compass in check.

Taking a modern, civilised western country as an example for any SR society is the wrong approach. Actually, most SR nations that haven't reached Sierra Leone levels of hellishness are more like Yeltzin-era Russia - widespread corruption and incompetence on the state side coupled with many former military types working for an incredibly influential underworld/business world, the two of which cannot be clearly separated, all in a state of slow but constant decay. That's what SR countries predominantly look like (all the more since SR4 seems hell bent on destroying any setting that differed from that approach - yes, this means what you did to the Tir, authors).

Society in general is very good at looking the other way. Espceially if there's an esprit du corps present, which is the core of SR megacorp culture. They may be bastards, but they're YOUR bastards, and if you let a word slip of their Hobbies, odds are it'll reflect badly on the company as a whole, which includes you. You may not have them watch over your 14 year old daughter when you're away, but unless you know onw of the girls, you're not likely to do anything about it. Just check on how many off-country military missions degenerate, no matter how civilised the country the soldiers are from. Though Chrys' example of DynCorp may be a bit extreme - mercenaries are a special breed of pigs, have been since Wallenstein, and always will be; all the more in SR. You're propably not wanting to be captured alive by many corpsec units.

Of course, this is all going to happen off-site or in dark corners of the enclaves, where not too many people look. Looking the other way is so much easier when you don't see anything if you don't look hard to begin with.

[Blade]

K.W Jeter's Dr Adder is a great book for vice in the enclaves and the fringes of a cyberpunk society. (And it's also a great book on its own)

[Daddy's Litt...]

For rock there is Troll trash bands and stuff like that. It is not the American Idol pop. Think of the antidisestablishment punk music of the early 80's. (No i do not remember it but I have seen pictures.) Do you think a good corp employee is going to come in with a pink mohawk and staples down his arm? Debauched andh ung over is not a way to show up to work on a regular basis.

It has already been said but I will repeat it. sure horrors like Burma, North Korea, Zimbabwe and Laos happen, but we see those as things that are wrong. Countries do not want to invest there and nations that do business, liek China, are pressured to use their influence for change and try to distance themselves from the mess. The Japanese of today are so affronted by what their grand fathers did that they are in denial about it. The Germans are still trying to apologise for the Nazi's and those who do not, the neo-nazis, are seen as malinformed thugs. Like the KKK in the United States, sure they are passionate in their beliefs but they are now seen as the fringe. the last Klan rally in NYC, in the Guiliani days, had 13 clansmen show up and 4,000 anticlan protestors.

In Indochina it is well known that white men can have underage girls. The fact the tourists have to travel around the world for this shows it is not tolerated in their own lands and even in indochina you can go too far. Gary Glitter fled England after a kiddy porn scandal and now is in a vietnamese prison for doing it again.


I think the corp world will actually be more puritanical in 2070 than today. The world fell into chaos. Balakanization, VITAS, Awakening, SURGE, ando ther matrix crash. I mean today the biggest change in the office is when Victor the mailroom guy comes back to work as Veronica. In the awakening Victor comes back to work as a 9 foot tall troll with a hsort temper. These all create unsettled times. people respond as a culture by making thinks MORE secure. MORE uptight. With the effect being that maybe things we see as ok today would be even more 'no no' in that world trying to hold itself together.

[Wesley Street]

Do you think a good corp employee is going to come in with a pink mohawk and staples down his arm? Debauched andh ung over is not a way to show up to work on a regular basis.

Casual Friday, 2070 style!

I think the corp world will actually be more puritanical in 2070 than today.

That's a bummer but it's a fair assessment. Fascism often arises in the wake of traumatic events. What's even worse is that I'd have to start wearing shoes in the office again.

[Fuchs]

I'd not be so sure. After WW1, which was followed by one of the deadliest influenza epidemics and civil war in many places, society became more open. Fascism really took off in the 30ies, but the roaring twenties were pretty liberal.

[CanRay]

I'd not be so sure. After WW1, which was followed by one of the deadliest influenza epidemics and civil war in many places, society became more open. Fascism really took off in the 30ies, but the roaring twenties were pretty liberal.

Flappers, Speakeasies, and Zoot Suits! Yeah, Daddy-O!

Also a great time if you were a Moonshiner and Rumrunner, the Original Shadowrunners!

[Wesley Street]

I'd not be so sure. After WW1, which was followed by one of the deadliest influenza epidemics and civil war in many places, society became more open. Fascism really took off in the 30ies, but the roaring twenties were pretty liberal.

Well, I think it depends on your country of origin. The 1920s were the height of Prohibition and the Temperance Movement in the United States. The "liberal" attitude was mostly limited to illegal speakeasies and burlesque shows. But I'm also aware that things got pretty freaky with the Dadaists and whatnot in Europe. I'm thinking more along the line of post-Armistice Germany or post-9/11 America.

[Fuchs]

Well, Germany was (in parts) very liberal in the 20s - Berlin was one of the, if not the city to be in. There was also a lot of politically-motivated violence, and abject poverty. Not unlike Shadowrun's world, in some way.

[hermit]

Policlubs!

SR Germany has a lot of the 20s.

[Fuchs]

Indeed. Post-WW1 Germany is a good historical example for some of Shadowrun's traits.

[hyzmarca]

The thing about laws is that they're made by hypocrites who believe that they are elite and special such that the reasoning behing those laws does not apply to them or their cadre.

Most hardcore prohibitionists go home at the end of the day, or to a party, and enjoy the very substances that they themselves are trying to prohibit, because they're special and elite, able to use those substances responsibility unlike everyone else in the world.

Thus, while some things may be illegal, the truth is that everybody will be doing them anyway and everyone will be looking the other way when you do it unless you're some worthless bottom-rung fraghole in which case you're already screwed and can't do anything about it anyway.

[psychophipps]

Nah, you got GoblinRock and Orxploitation and DwarfCore and ElvenAngst music and all that.

JETBLACK LIVES!!!

Yeah, we had fun with that adventure (if it was only the one). Of course, we killed three of the band members with a combination of well-rolled suppressive fire (me) and a troll neo-samurai/ninja with a di-kote no-dachi and intercept. Y'know, the the survivor didn't seem too thankful despite us dropping our own cash to save her ass at a good black clinic.

Probably should have killed her too for being rather bitchy about the whole thing...

[hyzmarca]

Now if you are talking about a corp citizen going out to the Barrens to get his serial killing rape on then I would request that you think about it a little more and realize that unless that person has a fair amount of money and gives it to the right people he is more likely to be the one getting raped and having his money taken.

I must agree with this wholeheartedly using a motivational poster made from an image stolen from Kick-Ass, perhaps the greatest new comic of the century.

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/1865/mo...tional42ze6.jpg

Yeah, for the average wageslave a trip into the barrens to start shit is a death sentence, particularly with faced with nine-year-old girls dual wielding swords. The suit in the barrens, unless he brings a SWAT team with him - even if he brings a SWAT team with him, is there at the pleasure of the heavily armed residents.

[BookWyrm]

All I ask for is a printable sell-sheet so I know what I'm ordering.

[psychophipps]

Yeah, for the average wage slave a trip into the barrens to start shit is a death sentence, particularly with faced with nine-year-old girls dual wielding swords. The suit in the barrens, unless he brings a SWAT team with him - even if he brings a SWAT team with him, is there at the pleasure of the heavily armed residents.

Except that your typical barrens waste doesn't have the scratch to buy a firearm, let alone a decent one that is a true threat to CorpSec guards. The other problem is that the gangs with the guns are a lot less likely to tangle with CorpSec on GP due to possible retaliation and the fact they're hoping to make some real money from the Corps gutter trolling anyway.
A nine-year-old with swords against trained CorpSec bodyguards? I'll take that bet any day of the freakin' week, homie. You think that a SR barrens trash bastard can afford those super-fly swords and/or the training needed to use them like in that comic book?

"HA!", I say! HA!

My Barrens are a lot more Beirut and The Mog, and a lot less bad anime ninja kiddies...

[Fuchs]

If Team 4 from CorpSec's Desert War branch goes for some "recreational teambuilding" into the Barrens, the residents better take cover and pray.

Even if we're talking plain sararimen - between skillwires, and mood/personachips, kids from the barrens don't really have an advantage in skill or ruthlessness. They know their turf better, but that's it. ANd they might be strung out on drugs, or otherwise handicapped as a result of their living conditions. Compared to that, the corp employee, especially if it's a manager, is most likely healthier, in better shape, and has much better gear - and the creds to hire the best from the Barrens as scouts/bodyguards.