Chrysalis
Jun 29 2008, 01:22 PM
Greets,
There will be a new Shadowrun sourcebook released by the end of the year this year called Vice. Now I was thinking on getting a little ahead of ourseves and see what kinds of ideas can we come up with in terms of Vices new and old for the 2070s.
Before you read on I should give you the warning that I have a very different approach from some towards what could be a dark, dystopian world. Please also be aware that I am used to playing in the realm of cyberpunk where these matters are more in your face and are dealt with a more open manner.
I would also like to reiterate a difficulty in talking about any of this with any frankness and that you who reply to this will also consider these points before posting:
QUOTE (Terms of Service)
3. No sexually explicit or offensive material. This includes links leading to materials of this nature. DSF is accessed by many people in many different settings, and we want the forum to remain accessible to everyone.
4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any innapropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.
As this deals with vice I will not be talking about Miami Vice, but more of the nuts and bolts of the sex, drugs, and rock'n roll. If these subjects offend you please do not click on the spoiler tag.
[ Spoiler ]
Sex
Prostitution is still big business in 2070. With UCAS being turned into a mix of both first world and third world, law is mired by corporate courts and extrajudicional areas.
Brothels, striptease bars, peepshows are all quite usual. Adding into this mix are the 2070 versions of virtual simsense environments. Porn is not only the Matrix it also comes in BTL chips as well. You can have better than real sex online.
With automation and knowbot codes lurking in the matrix perhaps it is simply an AI or agent that runs the virtual brothel, where the programmer just comes in for his monthly cut.
The traditional habits of the Ukranian mafia are replaced by sleep regulators, personafix chips and bunraku parlours. Now you don't even need to kidnap candidates or have to go to Bulgaria to buy girls in lots when you can simply do it by cruising the barrens and applying some harmless brain alteration. Once they outlive their usefulness, there are many who would pay good money for prime organs.
However, all of this technology is expensive and there is still a market for flesh and blood, not only for the affluent, but also for all those hardworking corporate drones. It means that while technology gives you ease of access, corporations have long ago known the fundamental of not shitting where you eat.
What does this mean for you? Your monthly middle-class lifestyle should be able to pay for not only those wild nights on the town, but also for the maid who not only cleans your house, but also keeps your bed warm on those rainy Seattle nights.
Drugs
In addition to the wide variety of drugs already available in the local pharmacy there are also virtual drugs, BTL chips, and hallucinogenic IC. You can by your synthcoke to go with soykaf. With extrajudicional areas you should beware what you can buy in one area maybe illegal in another. After all, corps make billions off selling drugs and any kind of competition is frowned upon.
Drugs are everywhere. It is in the food, in the air. Addiction means a captive audience and once that need is fufilled the consumer comes back for more. It keeps them working, it keeps them motivated, it keeps them as a part of the corporate system.
Shadowrunners often forget that when they take their hit to keep their edge, that celibratory snort.
Rock'n'roll
Entertainment is everywhere, it climbs in through your AR, it breaks your firewall and only dead people don't know how out of style they truly are. Consume, buy, spend.
CanRay
Jun 29 2008, 02:28 PM
Actually, on the Rock 'n' Roll thing...
Rock from the 1950s and 1960s would be 100-years old now.
That'd make Jimi Hendrix "Classical Music" now!

"Respect the Classics, Man!"
bard4life
Jun 29 2008, 02:48 PM
cool thanks for the update.
hermit
Jun 29 2008, 03:20 PM
Hidden in the spoiler is a reply to Chysalis. Warning: Reading this might mean losing your soul. Don't whine that you weren't warned.
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE
Drugs are everywhere. It is in the food, in the air. Addiction means a captive audience and once that need is fufilled the consumer comes back for more. It keeps them working, it keeps them motivated, it keeps them as a part of the corporate system.
Yeah ... like the old NukIt Burgers Breakfast Burrhito from Seattle Sourcebook. "With the funny stuff in it that keeps them coming back for more. And more. And more."
In regards to sex, I'd disagree on peep shows, at least live ones. that concept especially lends itself to AR/VR applications. You could also do specialty shows there for special audiences with interetsing tastes, like orc-elf-rape or other endeavours that are a little demanding on one or all performers, and still beam it into thoudsands of peep show cubiciles.
Also, one thing that's frequently been mentioned in the books but I totally missed is sex toys. as in, androids. Both Unwired and arsenal have mentioned them as specialised applications of the Otomo drone, and I'd hazard a guess that robofetishism would be a lucrative niche for such high-tech toys.
Then there's 'willful bunraku work' - much like originally mentioned in Bill Gibson's "House of Blue Lights", "Johnny Mnemonic" and "Neuromancer" (he really seems fond of that idea), people will offer ther bodies for rent, take an implant that puts them into ASIST-induced sleep, and let customers have their way with their bodies. Like Molly said, "you rent what you have, wake up, maybe feel a bit sore, but hey, it's good money".
And to even further explore the sex topic, what about all these transhuman concepts? In one scifi book (about aliens eating earth, but that's what really stuck with me), people changed sex according to fashion. I don't see how this is impossible in the SR universe. Also, with extensive body modding, you can rearrange your body in the most absurd ways to feed your fetishes, no matter how bizarre and disturbing (We've had that aleasdy; although closed, I hope some of the topics raised in that thread do receive soem coverage).
Finally, though, I also hope the authors avoid some really overworn clichés, like the 'all elves are sex machines' trope. It IS getting annoying.
Hocus Pocus
Jun 29 2008, 04:20 PM
one would think that in the future it will be a little more liberated in that some poor down and out below average slob with a wife and 2 kids and a heafty mortgage could go to his local brothel for a coupla babes dressed as schoolgirls and for a very short peirod of time, usually 1 minute, can take him to a place far away from it all, a land of milk and honey, with puppy dogs and humming birds. Is it to dream?
CanRay
Jun 29 2008, 04:52 PM
Where the streets are paved with Gold and the Dragons are fluffy and warm to cuddle?
hyzmarca
Jun 29 2008, 05:13 PM
QUOTE
"There's never been a paper bag."
QUOTE
..Dozerman gets shot for some bullshit, and that's when I 'bout reached my limit. And that's when the idea of the free zone, of Hamsterdam, come to me. Cause this drug thing, this ain't police work. Naw, it ain't. I mean, I can send any fool with a badge and a gun up on them corners and jack a crew and grab vials. But policing--I mean you call something a war and pretty soon, everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everyone on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory.
The great thing about Z-rated areas where the police never go is that they serve as a paper bag. If you want drugs, BTLs, kinky sex, or gambling, you can just go there and the cops can do real police work, like preventing hot-tempered SINners from killing their spouses in fits of rage.
One thing I disagree about SR4 rules is that sex changes make you infertile. Since gonad transplant should be as trivial as any other procedure, it may mean that that your kids aren't genetically yours but are instead the offspring of some poor schmuck who Tanamous cut up, unless you pay big bucks for some genetic engineering, but it should be as trivial as any other organ transplant is.
Backgammon
Jun 29 2008, 06:27 PM
In the
Madrid Audrian series, sex changed people are
extremely common. When I was reading it I thought it was plausible and a good idea, but in Effinger's vision I think sex changes were a little too common. But anyway, it was basically a trivial matter for men who wanted to be women to do so, and be basically indistinguishable from real women - except for the fact perhaps the sex changes pretty much all went for really hot bodies and for some reason all ended up as exotic dancers. But anyway, SR's technology should indeed make it trivial to have a perfect sex change. I continue to think, after readind the Madrid Audrian series, that this is an excellent cyberpunk theme. Just as machines blend with human, making us question what is human, a perfect sex change blurs the line of gender as well. What does it mean if your hot kittne girlfriend used to be a man? Does it mean anything at all?
As for drugs, there was an article not long ago in
The Economist that talked about the future of drugs. Basically reality is aligning itself with the vision some SF writers have had for a while. As phamaceutical technology evolves, drugs start losing their nastier side-effects, basically meaning you can chew on them like candy for all sorts of beneficial effects. I think SR is already aligned in that direction. There are several "casual" drugs characters can use for small bonuses and little side effects - drugs like Betel from Arsenal. So the use of drugs as mild enhancers is probably widespread to the point of it being like coffee. People don't event think twice about it - hell, they don't even think once.
But the harder narcotics and such, the cocaine and heroine of the future, as SR describes it, and I agree, they do not compete all that well against BTLs. Escapist/party drugs are just an inferior way of trying to feel like what a BTL can do much better - feel up, feel down, feel whatever. A BTL can target that part of your brain and voilà , you're all set. But then, this is where Ghost Cartels comes in. BADs and Awakened drugs are the new ace of chemical drugs. As Ghost Cartels comes out before Vice, I imagine Vice will expand on the phenomena Ghost Cartels is going to create.
Snow_Fox
Jun 29 2008, 08:24 PM
without being explicit about sex I think this would prove a major element. in a world with metas and magic therecould be all sorts of kinks that are not socially acceptable. Mixing species- dwarves and trolls as partners where the realative sizes in heigh alone make things seem off.
Also, more main stream, considering the japanese prejudicees agains metas suppose sarimen have a 'forbidden' passion for elf women and the need a place to meet in private-a big deal in a culture where just talking to a meta, mnver mind buying her a drink-is a taboo.
hunting rare creatures-gee fred that unicorn head on your wall looks almost real.
similarly exotic foods
and thrill seekers- like the 'normal' human who has ant spirit possessed house hold servants. A few trusted people get to see the more freakish blends. He provides a haven in the basement but has the risk thatcat some point they might take him too.
Chrysalis
Jun 29 2008, 09:56 PM
This may offend your sensibilities. If so think happy, happy thoughts and stop reading further.
[ Spoiler ]
I think you are missing a fundamental aspect in prostitution and that is not sex, but rather power. That you can go to your local brothel and pick up your daughter's school mate and fuck her 12 ways since Sunday or then taking an elf chick and keeping her in the basement and burning her with cigarette butts. It's about control. It's about taking control of your life that the corps have planned right down to your tattoos.
It's an outlet and diversion, the higher the paygrade the more kinkier sex becomes.
Orcs, trolls, dwarfs, africans, americans, thais are fads in the prostitution business. One year trolls are in demand another it is caucasians.
Unfortunately there is a fundamental issue involved with Otomos, you can't rape them, they don't feel compassion, they are not afraid of you. There is no power or control involved in them. They are no different than being complex rubber sex dolls.
It's the same way with Bunraku parlours, ultimately as an experience from the client side it's fucking a somnambulist. Unless you are really into date rape there is no interest involved if one looks at it from a power perspective.
My own experiences since my first sexual experience 15 years ago is that men crave to have something high which they can destroy to turn their will. Sex is just the act to affirm this situation of man's primacy.
I am already on my second warning and I think I may have earned my third by even talking about this.
Unfortunately I feel that all the technology in Shadowrun in terms of prostitution is a moral cop out. As a player you just venture into the wild side as a tourist and do not have to think about the reasons or the whys. You can safely go to bed knowing that when whoever you spent your money on will have at most an experience that involves taking two aspirins in the morning.
hyzmarca
Jun 30 2008, 01:17 AM
Chrysalis, you apparently have crappy taste in male sex partners. Either they're not doing it right or they're doing the wrong thing. Or they're just jerks. Or some combination of the above.
Sexual power dynamics have infinite potential variation and power dynamic preferences are many and varied.
There are men who will pay good money to do your laundry then be yelled at and beaten as punishment for any slight imperfection in the job real or imagined.
Most people, male and female, who frequent prostitutes do so for the companionship. It's cheaper than dating as well as safer and more honest; sex is just an aspect of that companionship. Others do it for the variety; often they're married and sometimes couples purchase these services together. Still others do so to satisfy an unusual fetish; Abies, for example, might have a difficult time finding suitable nannies outside of the fetish industry.
WearzManySkins
Jun 30 2008, 01:47 AM
Good Thoughts/Ideas hyzmarca.
Wonder how the legal prostitution locales like in Nevada would fare in SR4 2070. In those locales, hyzmarca is correct a good percentage of the customers are there for one form or another of companionship. Some of the customers go there due it is cheaper to patronize such places than to date persons, and in such places you are guaranteed to score for the night, when in dating you are not.
During my time in service, I paid "ladies of the evening" to sit next to me. Why you ask? well for one thing unless a lady is sitting next to you, every unattached lady will cycle thru asking you to sit with you every 15 minutes. What I paid was called "Ladies Drinks" which are/were overpriced drinks that may not have any alcohol. Typically it was 2 drinks which ran about 20 Pesos which at that time was about a dollar.
Since in the locales I was in, most places that served drinks had the Ladies, only one place served drinks with out the Ladies that was the VFW post on the main drag. I also got to speak to a female person which was a different thing, since my ships were all male at that time. During those conversations I gained some insight into the life of such ladies and the reasons for their being in that line of work.
WMS
psychophipps
Jun 30 2008, 03:08 AM
BTLs are the future because you can get the same thing, or something different catered to your needs, every single time. You get different grades of street drugs. Sometimes it's pure, sometimes it's cut with insecticide and rat poison to turn a higher profit. Hell, I had a really rough time bouncing one night with some poor college jock who didn't realize that the funny taste in that pre-rolled joint he bought was PCP.
Also, don't take this personal, but y'alls be sissies compared to the psycho stuff I toss into my games. Hell, you can damn near torture a prostitute to death or even do snuff with them over and over again with decent magic healing. Give her a Sim-Sense rig and you can record the whole thing for the depraved nouveau riche. Hell, pop a BTL and you can really have a good time doing whatever with whomever you want. Kiddie porn? Easy as pie and you can swap girls, boys, hermies, whathaveyou with the flick of a mental switch. There would be no real limits as the worst out there could be recorded once and dubbed with other recordings for distribution as a "new" recording.
To be short, the world would become a supremely screwed up place as you could literally combine your favorite aspects of sex and violence, enjoy them at the same time, and catered to your unique wants.
RunnerPaul
Jun 30 2008, 03:16 AM
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 29 2008, 11:08 PM)

To be short, the world would become a supremely screwed up place as you could literally combine your favorite aspects of sex and violence, enjoy them at the same time, and catered to your unique wants.
When 4chan's /B/-tards ruled the Earth.
====================
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Jun 29 2008, 05:56 PM)

This may offend your sensibilities. If so think happy, happy thoughts and stop reading further.
[ Spoiler ]
Unfortunately there is a fundamental issue involved with Otomos, you can't rape them, they don't feel compassion, they are not afraid of you. There is no power or control involved in them. They are no different than being complex rubber sex dolls.
It's the same way with Bunraku parlours, ultimately as an experience from the client side it's fucking a somnambulist. Unless you are really into date rape there is no interest involved if one looks at it from a power perspective.
[ Spoiler ]
Which can have an appeal all it's own to those who those who find themselves at the wrong end of a Sex-as-Power-Trip equation more often than not. Suddenly, there's easy access to a partner who won't try to mold you and break you into their own personal plaything. People who would at the very least be intimidated in a real sexual relationship, and at the worst, absolutely chewed up and spit out by it, now have another option, one in which they can explore sexual release in an non-threatening context.
Hocus Pocus
Jun 30 2008, 03:57 AM
whao! fundamental is power oh my good gracious no
my fellow irrudite men above me have it all bound up and a neatly wrapped package with an old grey bonnet with some blue frills upon it!
why do you think guys parose them mostly? to get away from de nagging wife of course!
when the guy marries and the wife changes, they just want to get away from it all for a bit.
they want a coupla ladies dressed up as school girls, attentive to his every need, so full of life and vigor! unleash the spring time of youth!
perhaps they want to just talk? the wife would over ride him and talk what she wants to talk. the lady will say of course and listen attentively to him
sex? well married women don't have it. but the ladies will do WHATEVER you want and with a smile on their face and not tell you that it is "disgusting" or "your sick" or the favorite "I'm not a porn star" clearly.
yeah she will take some of your money, but the agreed upon price and not a penny more. Man wives will have you so far into debt you don't know which way is up!
*sniffle* they can fulfill all your fantasys. Maybe one day, my own fantasy will be fulfilled? oh i can picture it now *breathless sigh* do we hen pecked men dare to dream?
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 29 2008, 05:52 PM)

Where the streets are paved with Gold and the Dragons are fluffy and warm to cuddle?
to see the horizon resplendet with the sun and back droped with obsequious babes running to you in slow motion in lillies and liacs calling your name? the unicorns breying their approval with stamps of the hoofs. Pixies and faries dance all around and a rainbow bright as a thousand stars promises that dreams do come true....yes it is to dream
Trigger
Jun 30 2008, 04:07 AM
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Jun 29 2008, 10:16 PM)

When 4chan's /B/-tards ruled the Earth.
2070, when Rule 34 has no limits and everything is possible.
shuya
Jun 30 2008, 06:40 AM
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Jun 29 2008, 10:16 PM)

When 4chan's /B/-tards ruled the Earth.
rules 1 and 2 mother****er!!!
but, to actually contribute something meaningful to the thread (lolwut?), i've always seen prostitution in shadowrun as being a lot like prostitution in modern day japan; very out in the open, and it's only illegal to pimp (but if you publish a flyer with girls' pictures and phone numbers on it, you're a publisher, not a pimp). in the big cities (and even the not-so-big ones) it's very easy to pick out the "establishments" even if you can't read a word of japanese, and it's just kinda... it's there.
i also like the idea of "sin districts" where all this kinda stuff essentially gets shuffled off to and accepted; see again the "yoshiwara" district of 19th century edo (tokyo); i guess seattle's "loveland" is sorta supposed to have that kinda feel to it.
on an entirely non-sex-related note, does anybody know the canon word on whether or not weed is legal in the 21st century UCAS?
[ Spoiler ]
in b4 newfag, weeaboo, gb2 420-chan, etc....
Heath Robinson
Jun 30 2008, 07:13 AM
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 30 2008, 04:08 AM)

... Snipped ...
I believe hyzmarca has referenced Mai's Everyday Life in relation to regeneration in a previous thread. I'm not particularly a fan of the more extreme fetishes, but I can see why it'd be attractive to some. Consider that in 2070 people can make other people look like little girls and boys (or, at least, adult-sized little girls and boys).
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Jun 30 2008, 04:16 AM)

When 4chan's /B/-tards ruled the Earth.
QUOTE (shuya @ Jun 30 2008, 07:40 AM)

rules 1 and 2 mother****er!!!
[ Spoiler ]
in b4 newfag, weeaboo, gb2 420-chan, etc....
How quaint, rules about not mentioning your secret club I presume.
[ Spoiler ]
Also, both of you are newfags, weeaboos, and should gb2 420chan.
hermit
Jun 30 2008, 08:43 AM
Curious whether or not that will get me a warning. Read with caution, dirty stuff ahead.
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE
I think you are missing a fundamental aspect in prostitution and that is not sex, but rather power. That you can go to your local brothel and pick up your daughter's school mate and fuck her 12 ways since Sunday or then taking an elf chick and keeping her in the basement and burning her with cigarette butts. It's about control. It's about taking control of your life that the corps have planned right down to your tattoos.
It's an outlet and diversion, the higher the paygrade the more kinkier sex becomes.
Orcs, trolls, dwarfs, africans, americans, thais are fads in the prostitution business. One year trolls are in demand another it is caucasians.
While a very highly regulated living environment
will to some degree foster such desires, I disagree it'll be a widespread phenomenon. For most customers, prostitution is about a cheap fuck, and that's it (that's rewarding enough to them). Many more men than the violent dominant kind fashion themselves 'collectors' and love to consider themselves very appealing and, yes, powerful, solely on the account of how many women they've had sex with, not nescessarily how they bashed them up during and disposed of them in tiny bits afterwards. That's a deviation from the norm, not the norm as such.
Also, having every prostitute sold to someone who renders them useless to future customers is bad business, and this is why pimps always keep bouncers to rough up customers who rough up their meat. At the end of a prostitute's product cycle, she may end like that, but before, she's got to look appealing, and no matter what your personal experiences are, the mjority of prospective customers will not be endeared by missing teety or cigarette burn scars.
The daughter's schoolmate counts, of course, but not so much for empowerment but rather as a symptom of mid life crisis, and reaffirming of the customer he's still 'got it in himself' to get women who're close to the beauty ideal (which is that of a late teens teenager).
QUOTE
Unfortunately there is a fundamental issue involved with Otomos, you can't rape them, they don't feel compassion, they are not afraid of you. There is no power or control involved in them. They are no different than being complex rubber sex dolls.
It's the same way with Bunraku parlours, ultimately as an experience from the client side it's fucking a somnambulist. Unless you are really into date rape there is no interest involved if one looks at it from a power perspective.
They're an empty canvas, both of them, to be filled with whatever your fantasy is. Like to fuck your attractive elven boss? Or maybe Maria Mercurial's husband? It's all possible with these, the degree of realism in that illusion depending solely on your wallet.
Also, an Otomo makes an ideal mate for socially retarded people. It never speaks up or refuses any service asked, it can be customised to your wildest dreams, and if you feel the urge to destroy what you fuck, you'fe vone exactly nohting wrong.
QUOTE
Unfortunately I feel that all the technology in Shadowrun in terms of prostitution is a moral cop out. As a player you just venture into the wild side as a tourist and do not have to think about the reasons or the whys. You can safely go to bed knowing that when whoever you spent your money on will have at most an experience that involves taking two aspirins in the morning.
'Moral Cop-out' is a very important part of the red lights business. Few people want to feel bad about having had a night of fun, after all.
As for the legal houses ... at least in the German publications, those are treated no different than today - the larger ones run adverts on buses and billboards and generally behave like any business would. Then again, we're just used to that, and noone considers this anything out of the ordinary.
QUOTE
on an entirely non-sex-related note, does anybody know the canon word on whether or not weed is legal in the 21st century UCAS?
For all I know, the background has as of now been silent towards that. I know it's considered legal in German publications (As is Extasy).
CanRay
Jun 30 2008, 11:23 AM
QUOTE (shuya @ Jun 30 2008, 01:40 AM)

on an entirely non-sex-related note, does anybody know the canon word on whether or not weed is legal in the 21st century UCAS?
Well, considering that "Heroin" is considered a "Light Drug" in Shadowrun after BTLs and Designer Drugs hit the streets, and not worth really going after, something as minor as Marijuana is probably left alone unless the Cops really want to bust you for something, and that's all they got.
Otherwise, not worth the paperwork.
Chrysalis
Jul 1 2008, 11:30 AM
More filth ahead.
[ Spoiler ]
I thought I would add Hermit's quotes and reply to them, but it demands actually following the whole argument.
Maybe power is not the correct word. While power is an aspect I would see that fantasy is far more powerful. The ability to pay money for the ability to fuck a girl who you could not drives directly into fantasy aspects. The idea that one hour out of your week you can go from a normal to whatever fantasy you desire. Whatever that fantasy is, whether it is simply having an hour of someone hugging you and listening to you ramble on about your crap job and your bitch wife. Sex is only part, it is about fantasy, even if that fantasy is companionship.
Prostitution is like a commodity such as meat: the fresher it is the better it is. Once it goes past its due date it is thrown out.
Real Dolls (please look it up yourself) in real life are just like Otomos. Recommended for the socially disabled, the short, etc. You could also in real life buy a 14 year old girl. And in Shadowrun to misuse your quote Hermit: "it can be customised to your wildest dreams, and if you feel the urge to destroy what you fuck, you've done exactly nothing wrong." After all if it does not have a SIN it does not legally exist.
Jumping to something similar, I was thinking about corporate judiciality. If it is not expressly forbidden in corporate law then it is not illegal. And if there is no law against it you can do it. Almost every country in the world has a minimum legal age. As corporate law is not morality but about profitability I suspect that very few corporations if any have in their constitution either caveats that allow local laws or then a mention of legal age.
I have yet to play in Phipps' games I have always wanted to though.
Backgammon
Jul 1 2008, 02:35 PM
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Jul 1 2008, 06:30 AM)

Jumping to something similar, I was thinking about corporate judiciality. If it is not expressly forbidden in corporate law then it is not illegal. And if there is no law against it you can do it. Almost every country in the world has a minimum legal age. As corporate law is not morality but about profitability I suspect that very few corporations if any have in their constitution either caveats that allow local laws or then a mention of legal age.
I think you are wrong there. Megacorps have as much interest as any nation to ensure there are laws against immoral conduct. Raping a prostitute and then beating her to death is NOT acceptable just because it doesn't affect the bottom line. A) it tarnishes the reputation of the corporation. Nobody wants to buy from "Those Debauched Fucks ™". B) it upsets the other citizens. How would
you feel if your cowokers routinely raped 14 year olds and all of upper management knew about it but did nothing? Society demands these things be punished and "society" still exists withing a corporate context.
Common "moral" laws are necessary to manage the internal morale and behaviour of staff. If anything, megacorps are far more likely to have MORE laws than states. Think of the japanacorps that rigidly control their employees. You think Renraku is gonna let it slide that Tetsuo in accounting likes to rape hookers? That would be shameful.
Anyway, I could go on, but point is you can't not have moral laws. Humans aren't wired that way.
psychophipps
Jul 1 2008, 02:50 PM
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 1 2008, 07:35 AM)

Common "moral" laws are necessary to manage the internal morale and behaviour of staff. If anything, megacorps are far more likely to have MORE laws than states. Think of the japanacorps that rigidly control their employees. You think Renraku is gonna let it slide that Tetsuo in accounting likes to rape hookers? That would be shameful.
Anyway, I could go on, but point is you can't not have moral laws. Humans aren't wired that way.
Umm...if we're not "wired that way", how come stuff like Seirra Leone happens? Cambodia? Burma/Myanmar? The atrocities of the Japanese occupation? The Cultural Revolution? Yugoslavian ethnic cleansing? How about the good ol' US street ghetto and all the things we as a country do to makes sure they exist?
All I can say to absolutely ridiculous bold font section above is, "Read your history, bro..."
And I feel that a distinct "Don't ask. Don't tell." policy would be in effect for most of the big boys. You think that the big wigs in Renraku are going to give two tugs of a dead dog's cock if Makoto in Accounting likes to rape and kill barrens wastrels? HA! As long as it doesn't come back to bite them in the ass (and that's what paying the pimp top dollar is for, after all) they could care less. Look at the stuff that first world corporations are doing for profits
now, fer chrisake! You think it's gonna magically get better because governments have
less power? Get real!
Homie, it's time you opened to your eyes to the realio dealio that's going on out there...
reepneep
Jul 1 2008, 04:16 PM
I would think that low level employees would be dumped for something like this simply because the bad publicity the company would receive if it became public knowledge would far outweigh the employee's value to the company. Like phipps said, the people at the top are far too valuable to throw away because they are 'kinky'.
Another thing worth considering is that since the megas produce the only media that Joe Consumer ever sees it would be VERY easy to make sure the stories never appear at all. A few bribes, a little extortion, or a few shadowruns (YAY!) and the problem of media exposure, almost no matter how big it is, goes away. If an employee of little value made them spend money on him like this, he would be gone.
Wesley Street
Jul 1 2008, 04:33 PM
Does the "rock 'n roll" in the phrase "sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll" only apply to the stereotypical white guy devil-horn throwing long-haired guitarist/drummer or can that apply to any counter-cultural music form? Because I'm thinking that by 2070 there's no way rock music is going to be edgy in any form... especially since they now play it at GOP conventions.
CanRay
Jul 1 2008, 04:39 PM
Nah, you got GoblinRock and Orxploitation and DwarfCore and ElvenAngst music and all that.
JETBLACK LIVES!!!
Tabula Rasa
Jul 1 2008, 05:20 PM
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jul 1 2008, 10:50 AM)

Umm...if we're not "wired that way", how come stuff like Seirra Leone happens? Cambodia? Burma/Myanmar? The atrocities of the Japanese occupation? The Cultural Revolution? Yugoslavian ethnic cleansing? How about the good ol' US street ghetto and all the things we as a country do to makes sure they exist?
All I can say to absolutely ridiculous bold font section above is, "Read your history, bro..."
Do you think any of those places are ideal for doing business or have what we would consider a healthy economy? The answer is no. When you do not have a stable society and people do not feel safe and they think their resources (including their own body) can be taken at will by anyone because there are no laws protecting them you do not have an environment for good business.
So if megas allowed their enclaves to sink to the level of debauchery we are talking about here they would make significantly less money than any mega with the sense to follow successful economic history and emphasize the need for a civil society with laws protecting each citizen's resources.
CanRay
Jul 1 2008, 05:23 PM
Ah, but he's not talking about the Enclaves.
He's talking about "Day Trips" out of the Enclaves into the Lawless Lands on the outside, now, isn't he?
And anyhow, if the person affected is SINless, there has been no crime. That person does not have citizenship, and, thus, no protection at all from the Law, or rights in any way.
Chrysalis
Jul 1 2008, 05:23 PM
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 1 2008, 05:35 PM)

I think you are wrong there. Megacorps have as much interest as any nation to ensure there are laws against immoral conduct. Raping a prostitute and then beating her to death is NOT acceptable just because it doesn't affect the bottom line. A) it tarnishes the reputation of the corporation. Nobody wants to buy from "Those Debauched Fucks ™". B) it upsets the other citizens. How would you feel if your cowokers routinely raped 14 year olds and all of upper management knew about it but did nothing? Society demands these things be punished and "society" still exists withing a corporate context.
Common "moral" laws are necessary to manage the internal morale and behaviour of staff. If anything, megacorps are far more likely to have MORE laws than states. Think of the japanacorps that rigidly control their employees. You think Renraku is gonna let it slide that Tetsuo in accounting likes to rape hookers? That would be shameful.
Anyway, I could go on, but point is you can't not have moral laws. Humans aren't wired that way.
Bullshit. Dyncorp's head in Kosovo,
Hirtz, would give a fourteen year old girl as a gift for every new member in Kosovo. They traded them like kids trade Pokemon cards. I have yet to see Dyncorp not getting contacts from the Pentagon. Halliburton has been implicated in human trafficking.
Besides I really doubt I would see corp. sponsored media going out and giving fair and unbiased reportage on their dirty laundry. Biting the hand that feeds and all that.
Also the more laws in place the more constrained corps are. With fair and equal laws it means workers also have rights. People are the need and the corps are the panacea.
Tabula Rasa
Jul 1 2008, 08:07 PM
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 1 2008, 01:23 PM)

Ah, but he's not talking about the Enclaves.
He's talking about "Day Trips" out of the Enclaves into the Lawless Lands on the outside, now, isn't he?
And anyhow, if the person affected is SINless, there has been no crime. That person does not have citizenship, and, thus, no protection at all from the Law, or rights in any way.
If you are talking about "day trips" then bringing up world strife areas is a ridiculous way to make your point. People don't go to African war zones to get their jollies. People living in those areas do the horrific things they do because of the living conditions in the area. They aren't like that because westerners - or wealthy people in general - like to go there to take part in the underground sex-trade.
Now if you are talking about a corp citizen going out to the Barrens to get his serial killing rape on then I would request that you think about it a little more and realize that unless that person has a fair amount of money and gives it to the right people he is more likely to be the one getting raped and having his money taken.
But even saying that this "day tripper" is smooth at doing what he does he better hide it because it lowers productivity when the coworkers have to be worried about the child-raping monster working in the cube one over and they are worried about their children walking in his neighborhood.
Social unrest is a huge problem when you are trying to be efficient. Just look at China and how fast they try to crack down on big obvious contributors to social unrest, such as executing the head of their food safety agency.
If you are trying to attract top talent, if you want your employees thinking about work instead of other stuff, if you want an efficient workforce, you'll make sure you don't have any child-raping murderer's, cannibals, or any other dregs of society openly working for you or else you won't have any of the former.
And it's important to note the difference between occasional stuff that gets revealed and openly not caring about that sort of stuff.
hyzmarca
Jul 2 2008, 01:28 AM
QUOTE (Wanted)
"Maybe this "being evil all the time" crap's just starting to feel a little forced. "
"Take it easy Wesley, you just hit the same wall we all hit after the first few months."
"What?"
"You really think we just go around fucking shit up all the time? This is a global business, man. We got out fingers in a little piece of everything and that means you gotta be disciplined. You don't have time to rape, kill, and mutilate people all the time, baby."
Really, cutting out that scene is one of the worst mistakes that the studio made when converting Wanted to the big screen. It demonstrates very well one important fact - rape and murder just for the fun of it is boring. At first, you have that visceral thrill of breaking social taboos and giving the world a big Fuck You. But that thrill quickly fades. One becomes desensitized. The exotically deviant becomes the every-day mundane and there is just no point to it. Escalating it doesn't work, because once you're out there spree killing in your spare time there is nothing left to escalate to. They won't be enduring popular pastimes for that reason alone. Also they're tacky, like wearing white after labor day.
The Dyncorp thing isn't rape or murder. It's about employing the services of prostitutes for companionship. It is rare for anyone to get hurt in such arrangements and it is good for the economy. Men and women, in real life, do take vacations to third world countries for inexpensive exotic sex. Again, it isn't about rape or power. It is usually just a mutually beneficial companionship arrangement, though the risk of disease tends to be high due to the unregulated nature of the industry.
Tabula Rasa
Jul 2 2008, 01:47 AM
Never mind...
hyzmarca
Jul 2 2008, 02:21 AM
QUOTE (Tabula Rasa @ Jul 1 2008, 09:47 PM)

Never mind...
Well now, I'm curious.
It is common courtesy , when editing out an argument that you feel was a mistake, to replace it with some piece of BS so people who come it late don't notice that you did edit it. The need to know is torture, it is. It's worse than the iron maiden (Iron Maiden, Excellent! *Air Guitars*).
And that is another related issue. Information is, itself, a vice. This goes far beyond voyeurism. The need to know and the need to hoard knowledge drives some to great extremes, risking their lives and the lives of others for fleeting scraps of information. In a kill or be killed world where knowledge is power the information junkie is both the most dangerous of enemies and the most dangerous of friends.
Tabula Rasa
Jul 2 2008, 02:25 AM
Sorry, if you really need to know, I intended to post on my favorite manufacturer of Fontina cheese in my cheese aficionado forum but it ended up here by accident. >.>'
hermit
Jul 2 2008, 08:05 AM
Warning! Evil Stuff inside. EVIL, I tell you!
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE
Maybe power is not the correct word. While power is an aspect I would see that fantasy is far more powerful. The ability to pay money for the ability to fuck a girl who you could not drives directly into fantasy aspects. The idea that one hour out of your week you can go from a normal to whatever fantasy you desire. Whatever that fantasy is, whether it is simply having an hour of someone hugging you and listening to you ramble on about your crap job and your bitch wife. Sex is only part, it is about fantasy, even if that fantasy is companionship.
Exactly. However, I don't nescessarily see why this has to be about 14 year olds.
Corp Courtesans and Otomo Fuckdrones can be completly corp controlled - either via spyware or via a snake eyes interface and personafixes, maybe even an advanced biodrone harness). No need for joe worker to go to the friendly local Mafia brothel and blather out some company secrets. Keeps it all nice and in the family.
QUOTE
Jumping to something similar, I was thinking about corporate judiciality. If it is not expressly forbidden in corporate law then it is not illegal. And if there is no law against it you can do it. Almost every country in the world has a minimum legal age. As corporate law is not morality but about profitability I suspect that very few corporations if any have in their constitution either caveats that allow local laws or then a mention of legal age.
Actually, one of the more recent German novels is pretty much about a kiddie porn ring operating out of Horizon Munich and the upper management looking the other way, so long as noone really rubs it up thier noses (in the end, it IS rubbed up their noses, they fire the ring's 'hub' guy, and let someone else take his place). So yes, especially the media/entertainment heavy corps (HELLO, Horizion!) are propably having some seriously disturbing ventures in hard porn. Especially Horizon, actually, considering how they're so on the edge with newest media and matrix subculture fads ... because, after all, pedophiles are another matrix subculture (although, like Nazi policlubbers, a less popular one) and as such, a nice target market; furthermore, it provides great blackmail material, should Horizon need to out'wit' a competitor again.
Also, I personally always considered most corp enclaves having their very own brothels and courtesans for company personnel there. Keeps it all in the family. Besides, since the corp makes it's own laws, they could totally legalise corp prostitution, make it a career like any other (till the meat's past it's due date, as you formulated so nicely, propably with some fresh-up treatment, much like regular meat sold in supermarkets usually gets past it's due date at least twice these days) for aspiring young corporate girls. Again, I especially see Horizon involved there - though the Japanacorps, especially MCT and Shiawase, propably form joint ventures with local Yaks for similar services (and other Megas propably cannot afford to fall behind there. Work Contracts, especially in harsh and/or remoe locales, might even contain a guaranteed sex per week quota, to encourage workers and keep them mentally stable.
QUOTE
I think you are wrong there. Megacorps have as much interest as any nation to ensure there are laws against immoral conduct. Raping a prostitute and then beating her to death is NOT acceptable just because it doesn't affect the bottom line. A) it tarnishes the reputation of the corporation. Nobody wants to buy from "Those Debauched Fucks â„¢". B) it upsets the other citizens. How would you feel if your cowokers routinely raped 14 year olds and all of upper management knew about it but did nothing? Society demands these things be punished and "society" still exists withing a corporate context.
Common "moral" laws are necessary to manage the internal morale and behaviour of staff. If anything, megacorps are far more likely to have MORE laws than states. Think of the japanacorps that rigidly control their employees. You think Renraku is gonna let it slide that Tetsuo in accounting likes to rape hookers? That would be shameful.
Anyway, I could go on, but point is you can't not have moral laws. Humans aren't wired that way.
Sorry, no. If humanity had a built-in moral compass, what would we need laws and all the other costly and demanding ventures of the judiciary for? It's more like that humanity has to constantly work (pretty hard) to keep it's lack of such a built-in moral compass in check.
Taking a modern, civilised western country as an example for any SR society is the wrong approach. Actually, most SR nations that haven't reached Sierra Leone levels of hellishness are more like Yeltzin-era Russia - widespread corruption and incompetence on the state side coupled with many former military types working for an incredibly influential underworld/business world, the two of which cannot be clearly separated, all in a state of slow but constant decay. That's what SR countries predominantly look like (all the more since SR4 seems hell bent on destroying any setting that differed from that approach - yes, this means what you did to the Tir, authors).
Society in general is very good at looking the other way. Espceially if there's an esprit du corps present, which is the core of SR megacorp culture. They may be bastards, but they're YOUR bastards, and if you let a word slip of their Hobbies, odds are it'll reflect badly on the company as a whole, which includes you. You may not have them watch over your 14 year old daughter when you're away, but unless you know onw of the girls, you're not likely to do anything about it. Just check on how many off-country military missions degenerate, no matter how civilised the country the soldiers are from. Though Chrys' example of DynCorp may be a bit extreme - mercenaries are a special breed of pigs, have been since Wallenstein, and always will be; all the more in SR. You're propably not wanting to be captured alive by many corpsec units.
Of course, this is all going to happen off-site or in dark corners of the enclaves, where not too many people look. Looking the other way is so much easier when you don't see anything if you don't look hard to begin with.
Blade
Jul 2 2008, 08:17 AM
K.W Jeter's Dr Adder is a great book for vice in the enclaves and the fringes of a cyberpunk society. (And it's also a great book on its own)
Daddy's Little Ninja
Jul 2 2008, 12:40 PM
For rock there is Troll trash bands and stuff like that. It is not the American Idol pop. Think of the antidisestablishment punk music of the early 80's. (No i do not remember it but I have seen pictures.) Do you think a good corp employee is going to come in with a pink mohawk and staples down his arm? Debauched andh ung over is not a way to show up to work on a regular basis.
It has already been said but I will repeat it. sure horrors like Burma, North Korea, Zimbabwe and Laos happen, but we see those as things that are wrong. Countries do not want to invest there and nations that do business, liek China, are pressured to use their influence for change and try to distance themselves from the mess. The Japanese of today are so affronted by what their grand fathers did that they are in denial about it. The Germans are still trying to apologise for the Nazi's and those who do not, the neo-nazis, are seen as malinformed thugs. Like the KKK in the United States, sure they are passionate in their beliefs but they are now seen as the fringe. the last Klan rally in NYC, in the Guiliani days, had 13 clansmen show up and 4,000 anticlan protestors.
In Indochina it is well known that white men can have underage girls. The fact the tourists have to travel around the world for this shows it is not tolerated in their own lands and even in indochina you can go too far. Gary Glitter fled England after a kiddy porn scandal and now is in a vietnamese prison for doing it again.
I think the corp world will actually be more puritanical in 2070 than today. The world fell into chaos. Balakanization, VITAS, Awakening, SURGE, ando ther matrix crash. I mean today the biggest change in the office is when Victor the mailroom guy comes back to work as Veronica. In the awakening Victor comes back to work as a 9 foot tall troll with a hsort temper. These all create unsettled times. people respond as a culture by making thinks MORE secure. MORE uptight. With the effect being that maybe things we see as ok today would be even more 'no no' in that world trying to hold itself together.
Wesley Street
Jul 2 2008, 03:12 PM
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Jul 2 2008, 07:40 AM)

Do you think a good corp employee is going to come in with a pink mohawk and staples down his arm? Debauched andh ung over is not a way to show up to work on a regular basis.
Casual Friday, 2070 style!
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Jul 2 2008, 07:40 AM)

I think the corp world will actually be more puritanical in 2070 than today.
That's a bummer but it's a fair assessment. Fascism often arises in the wake of traumatic events. What's even worse is that I'd have to start wearing shoes in the office again.
Fuchs
Jul 2 2008, 03:15 PM
I'd not be so sure. After WW1, which was followed by one of the deadliest influenza epidemics and civil war in many places, society became more open. Fascism really took off in the 30ies, but the roaring twenties were pretty liberal.
CanRay
Jul 2 2008, 03:28 PM
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 2 2008, 10:15 AM)

I'd not be so sure. After WW1, which was followed by one of the deadliest influenza epidemics and civil war in many places, society became more open. Fascism really took off in the 30ies, but the roaring twenties were pretty liberal.
Flappers, Speakeasies, and Zoot Suits! Yeah, Daddy-O!
Also a great time if you were a Moonshiner and Rumrunner, the Original Shadowrunners!
Wesley Street
Jul 2 2008, 07:59 PM
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 2 2008, 11:15 AM)

I'd not be so sure. After WW1, which was followed by one of the deadliest influenza epidemics and civil war in many places, society became more open. Fascism really took off in the 30ies, but the roaring twenties were pretty liberal.
Well, I think it depends on your country of origin. The 1920s were the height of Prohibition and the Temperance Movement in the United States. The "liberal" attitude was mostly limited to illegal speakeasies and burlesque shows. But I'm also aware that things got pretty freaky with the Dadaists and whatnot in Europe. I'm thinking more along the line of post-Armistice Germany or post-9/11 America.
Fuchs
Jul 2 2008, 08:18 PM
Well, Germany was (in parts) very liberal in the 20s - Berlin was one of the, if not the city to be in. There was also a lot of politically-motivated violence, and abject poverty. Not unlike Shadowrun's world, in some way.
hermit
Jul 2 2008, 08:22 PM
Policlubs!
SR Germany has a lot of the 20s.
Fuchs
Jul 2 2008, 08:35 PM
Indeed. Post-WW1 Germany is a good historical example for some of Shadowrun's traits.
hyzmarca
Jul 2 2008, 08:44 PM
The thing about laws is that they're made by hypocrites who believe that they are elite and special such that the reasoning behing those laws does not apply to them or their cadre.
Most hardcore prohibitionists go home at the end of the day, or to a party, and enjoy the very substances that they themselves are trying to prohibit, because they're special and elite, able to use those substances responsibility unlike everyone else in the world.
Thus, while some things may be illegal, the truth is that everybody will be doing them anyway and everyone will be looking the other way when you do it unless you're some worthless bottom-rung fraghole in which case you're already screwed and can't do anything about it anyway.
psychophipps
Jul 3 2008, 01:36 AM
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 1 2008, 09:39 AM)

Nah, you got GoblinRock and Orxploitation and DwarfCore and ElvenAngst music and all that.
JETBLACK LIVES!!!
Yeah, we had fun with that adventure (if it was only the one). Of course, we killed three of the band members with a combination of well-rolled suppressive fire (me) and a troll neo-samurai/ninja with a di-kote no-dachi and intercept. Y'know, the the survivor didn't seem too thankful despite us dropping our own cash to save her ass at a good black clinic.
Probably should have killed her too for being rather bitchy about the whole thing...
hyzmarca
Jul 3 2008, 02:17 AM
QUOTE (Tabula Rasa @ Jul 1 2008, 04:07 PM)

Now if you are talking about a corp citizen going out to the Barrens to get his serial killing rape on then I would request that you think about it a little more and realize that unless that person has a fair amount of money and gives it to the right people he is more likely to be the one getting raped and having his money taken.
I must agree with this wholeheartedly using a motivational poster made from an image stolen from Kick-Ass, perhaps the greatest new comic of the century.
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/1865/mo...tional42ze6.jpgYeah, for the average wageslave a trip into the barrens to start shit is a death sentence, particularly with faced with nine-year-old girls dual wielding swords. The suit in the barrens, unless he brings a SWAT team with him - even if he brings a SWAT team with him, is there at the pleasure of the heavily armed residents.
BookWyrm
Jul 3 2008, 02:37 AM
All I ask for is a printable sell-sheet so I know what I'm ordering.
psychophipps
Jul 3 2008, 04:09 AM
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 2 2008, 07:17 PM)

Yeah, for the average wage slave a trip into the barrens to start shit is a death sentence, particularly with faced with nine-year-old girls dual wielding swords. The suit in the barrens, unless he brings a SWAT team with him - even if he brings a SWAT team with him, is there at the pleasure of the heavily armed residents.
Except that your typical barrens waste doesn't have the scratch to buy a firearm, let alone a decent one that is a true threat to CorpSec guards. The other problem is that the gangs with the guns are a lot less likely to tangle with CorpSec on GP due to possible retaliation and the fact they're hoping to make some
real money from the Corps gutter trolling anyway.
A nine-year-old with swords against trained CorpSec bodyguards? I'll take that bet any day of the freakin' week, homie. You think that a SR barrens trash bastard can afford those super-fly swords and/or the training needed to use them like in that comic book?
"HA!", I say! HA!
My Barrens are a lot more Beirut and The Mog, and a lot less bad anime ninja kiddies...
Fuchs
Jul 3 2008, 06:23 AM
If Team 4 from CorpSec's Desert War branch goes for some "recreational teambuilding" into the Barrens, the residents better take cover and pray.
Even if we're talking plain sararimen - between skillwires, and mood/personachips, kids from the barrens don't really have an advantage in skill or ruthlessness. They know their turf better, but that's it. ANd they might be strung out on drugs, or otherwise handicapped as a result of their living conditions. Compared to that, the corp employee, especially if it's a manager, is most likely healthier, in better shape, and has much better gear - and the creds to hire the best from the Barrens as scouts/bodyguards.
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