Accessories and Modifications and slots Options

[Jack Kain]

Alright now some weapon modifications also come as accessories such as silencers and smartlinks.
Do gun accessories count as modification slots when attached when it comes to the 6 mod limit before overmodding.
Say I have gun which has six modifications but I want to screw on a silencer accessory for stealth. Is the gun now overmodded?


A second related question I've only just gotten Arsenal and one modification Personalized Grip works on melee weapons. Now I have a monowhip which I'd love to have a personalized grip the problem is, well its also a weapon foci.

[Mäx]

Alright now some weapon modifications also come as accessories such as silencers and smartlinks.
Do gun accessories count as modification slots when attached when it comes to the 6 mod limit before overmodding.
Say I have gun which has six modifications but I want to screw on a silencer accessory for stealth. Is the gun now overmodded?

No, only mods count against the slot limit.

[CanRay]

I'd say no. Slots mean interal modifications to the weapon, whereas accessories are bolt-ons. At least, that's how I've read it.

[Dumori]

I would make you reatune with your focus after modifying it may be a 1 karma cost and more nuyen for the focus grip as well as some time. I am unshure how it would work by RAW though.

[otakusensei]

Ditto the slot rulings above.

The focus wouldn't be a problem. Essentially you're replacing the bits that wear out naturally with bits that feel better in your hand. I don't make my players jump through hoops when they need to change the hilt wrap on their sword foci, changing the foam grip on the whip tube would be the same thing.
If you want to take it further think of what a weapon is. If you consider the ax handle to be part of the ax itself, the slot total like it's essence, then replacing it is a major change. If you consider only the business end of the weapon to be the weapon, i.e. the ax head, you can replace the handle without changing the fundamental weapon. This interpretation makes more sense to me based on having to service garage and garden tools in the past but might not fix with your vision.

Also, if you're looking for a good karma sync here you go. As a general rule I allow active players a minor rewrite once a new book becomes available. This is mostly because they were aware of much of it from past versions and I'd rather hear less bitching than fleece them for cash that way. I have plenty of other ways to flush away their nuyen.

[JoelHalpern]

There is one accessory that I wonder about. And it makes a big difference in practice.
The internal smartgun accessory. (Yes, there is an external smartgun accessory. But there is an internal one.)
If you are worrying about gun size, you tend to want the internal accessory. But one is tempted to conclude that an internal accessory ought to count as a modification, taking the same slot count as the internal smartgun modification.

Joel

[Sir_Psycho]

There is one accessory that I wonder about. And it makes a big difference in practice.
The internal smartgun accessory. (Yes, there is an external smartgun accessory. But there is an internal one.)
If you are worrying about gun size, you tend to want the internal accessory. But one is tempted to conclude that an internal accessory ought to count as a modification, taking the same slot count as the internal smartgun modification.

Joel

Internal smartgun modifications still count as modification (unless of course it comes stock with the weapon, eg. Smartgun-x). The advantage is not saving modification slots, but not having to use an overbarrel/underbarrel mount for the smartgun, so you have those slots for other mods.

[Ustio]

With regard to the weapon focus query i thinkk MR Terry Pratcheet has the best answer (somewhat paraphrased)

Dwarf: This is my ancestors axe, though the haft has been changed as well as the head, but still it is the same axe, because the truth of the thing is the whole of the thing


See everything can be solved with discworld refrences

[Ed_209a]

A second related question I've only just gotten Arsenal and one modification Personalized Grip works on melee weapons. Now I have a monowhip which I'd love to have a personalized grip the problem is, well its also a weapon foci.

I wouldn't make you pay karma to retune the focus, but I would make you be very picky with the materials you use. Too much processed materials, and the enchantment might get wonky.

Rather than get one of those off-the-shelf kits where you dip the plastic grip in hot water and then squeeze it into shape, I would have you get inserts made by traditional means from natural materials. Essentially, someone will have to use sandpaper (or even better, a rock) on chunks of wood, and then cover it in leather wrapping to hold it in place.

Though if your character has the contacts and resources to get something as high-tech as a mono whip enchanted, this will be no problem for your character.

[Rad]

While we're on the subject, what does arsenal say about barrel/top/under mounted accessories and concealability?

I'm going into my first SR game soon, and while I don't have Arsenal, my GM does, so I'd rather not bring out a character I've designed and find out that his equipment functions differently (or is no longer allowed) than it did when I was picking it out.

(I'd especially not like to find this out mid-game, when the star pats me down and discovers that illegal backup weapon I have hidden under my coat.)

[Tarantula]

Doesn't say anything, but patdowns get a gigantic bonus for finding shit. Agi+Int for the searcher, and your shit only gets half its concealability.
At most, they take a -3 to the roll and still have enough to find just about anything.

[JoelHalpern]

I have tended to assume that large external additions would give a bonus for spotting the weapon. I.e. a weapon with an internal smartlink should be easier to conceal than one with an external smartlink. Similarly, a weapon with a large scope / laser sight above the barrel (rather than a built in laser sight) would seem to be easier to spot.
As far as I can tell, RAW does not say this. But in helping my player recently design pistols that are reasonably concealable, that is what I assumed. (The one character I am playing only shoots LMGs, so concealability is not the question he asks.)

Joel

[CanRay]

"So I hide the Panther Assault Cannon in my Trenchcoat..." "Not fraggin' likely." "Duffel Bag?" "OK, you have a very butch Pather Cozy."

[Jack Kain]

Your best bet is to make sure you have all the right licenses, firearms, conceal and carry for any restricted gear.
My Elf has a few ranks in palming which in conjunction with his high agility can aid him in escaping numerous pat downs. Searches are after all an opposed tests when ever your intentionally trying to hide anything.

[WearzManySkins]

Your best bet is to make sure you have all the right licenses, firearms, conceal and carry for any restricted gear.
My Elf has a few ranks in palming which in conjunction with his high agility can aid him in escaping numerous pat downs. Searches are after all an opposed tests when ever your intentionally trying to hide anything.

Palming covers "small objects" not Ares Predators. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Lets say anything "palm" sized or smaller. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) edit: and yes a Troll's palm definition is different than a Elf's. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[JoelHalpern]

Palming covers "small objects" not Ares Predators. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Lets say anything "palm" sized or smaller. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) edit: and yes a Troll's palm definition is different than a Elf's. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

Sorry, but while that makes good sense, it is not what the book says.
The section on page 301 of the BBB is all about concealing items. The second paragraph begins "To determine if someone notices a worn or carried item, ..." It continues, clearly talking about worn or carried items, "If a character is intentionally trying to hide something, treat this as an Opposed Test against the concealing character's Palming + Agility Test."

So while Palming would seem to apply only to items hidden in ones hand, the rules use it as the general skill of hiding something on ones person.

And the skill description on page 114 specifically states "This skill is used to conceal small objects about the character."
Now, one could still argue about the size, if all we had was the skill description. But the combination of the two text sections makes it clear that the rules intend this for concealing any vaguely concealable items on the person. that's why there is a table of concealment modifiers for all those odd things.
(Obviously, this still requires common sense. Some things just don;t conceal. The only question is whether the observer is doing his job with his eyes open or closed.)

Yours,
Joel

[Jack Kain]

Your joking right? People have "palmed" heavy pistols and even submachine guns in real life concealing them from notice. There have been real cases of good sized hand guns making it past a security pat downs and your going to tell me that a shadowrunner is not capable of performing a feat that

RAW: When intentionally trying to hide something its an opposed test against the the concealing characters palming + agility test.

And really no matter how concealable your gun is, its rather moot if its not immune to MAD scanners because if they really want to search you its simpler to use that then pat you down all over.

[Mäx]

If they want to be sure they use a cyberware scanner

[WearzManySkins]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Sorry by the RAW, Mr. Lucky can LongShot into a Tank and Kill the driver/tank.

Me as a GM says no. End of Line. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

You must have never undergone the "pat downs" I underwent, but that was by LEO's, I guess you would put their rating fairly high.

WMS

[Jack Kain]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Sorry by the RAW, Mr. Lucky can LongShot into a Tank and Kill the driver/tank.

Me as a GM says no. End of Line. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

You must have never undergone the "pat downs" I underwent, but that was by LEO's, I guess you would put their rating fairly high.

WMS

And what fun is a game where a simple pat down on everyone is the ultimate unbeatable security check for weapons?

[WearzManySkins]

We each have our level of what is defined as "Fun".

"Pat Downs" can be beaten, but first the item/weapon must be "small" enough, not full sized handgun/firearm/panther assault cannon/back pak nuke. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Jack Kain]

Which about limits the items to a size you could stick up your behind.

[JoelHalpern]

If they want to be sure they use a cyberware scanner

One of the minor questions is how much does a magscanner detect?
The case I am thinking of has probably been dsicussed to death elsewhere. A gun concealed in a cyber-arm.
A dedicated cyberwear detector can presumably, on a good roll, notice that there is too much metal in the arm.
But it would seem that a metal detector is just going to go "ping" at a nice, obvious, cyber-arm.
Do most people give the operators a roll to realize there is a gun hidden in there? (At what threshold?)
Or am being obtuse?

Thanks,
Joel

[Tarantula]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Sorry by the RAW, Mr. Lucky can LongShot into a Tank and Kill the driver/tank.

Me as a GM says no. End of Line. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

You must have never undergone the "pat downs" I underwent, but that was by LEO's, I guess you would put their rating fairly high.

WMS

Actually, by raw, no, he can't, PM me if you feel like arguing about it, I just had make a point on that since its a common one thrown around that is completely false.

[WearzManySkins]

Which about limits the items to a size you could stick up your behind.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Well my rating for "pat downs" is not in the league of LEO's but I would easily find a full sized pistol on your person, but like the LEO's your hands are in the open and in a exposed position, and the pat down is not finished until any dancing around on your part is done. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

No small objects do not always have to be rectally inserted, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) IG I have "sneaked" two detonators past a pat down and a scan.

Cyberwear based/installed weapons are not with in the detection ability of a pat down, now various scanners give in one form or another to have a chance to detect same.

Weapons scanners generally are faster than pat downs. Weapons scanners can be "Sneaked" past by a properly configured/made/modded weapon.

Pat downs would have a good chance to detect a weapon that got past a scanner, but then again one small enough and configured/modded/made can get past a pat down.

WMS