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Jack Kain
Alright now some weapon modifications also come as accessories such as silencers and smartlinks.
Do gun accessories count as modification slots when attached when it comes to the 6 mod limit before overmodding.
Say I have gun which has six modifications but I want to screw on a silencer accessory for stealth. Is the gun now overmodded?


A second related question I've only just gotten Arsenal and one modification Personalized Grip works on melee weapons. Now I have a monowhip which I'd love to have a personalized grip the problem is, well its also a weapon foci.
Mx
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Jul 11 2008, 02:25 AM) *
Alright now some weapon modifications also come as accessories such as silencers and smartlinks.
Do gun accessories count as modification slots when attached when it comes to the 6 mod limit before overmodding.
Say I have gun which has six modifications but I want to screw on a silencer accessory for stealth. Is the gun now overmodded?


No, only mods count against the slot limit.
CanRay
I'd say no. Slots mean interal modifications to the weapon, whereas accessories are bolt-ons. At least, that's how I've read it.
Dumori
I would make you reatune with your focus after modifying it may be a 1 karma cost and more nuyen for the focus grip as well as some time. I am unshure how it would work by RAW though.
otakusensei
Ditto the slot rulings above.

The focus wouldn't be a problem. Essentially you're replacing the bits that wear out naturally with bits that feel better in your hand. I don't make my players jump through hoops when they need to change the hilt wrap on their sword foci, changing the foam grip on the whip tube would be the same thing.
If you want to take it further think of what a weapon is. If you consider the ax handle to be part of the ax itself, the slot total like it's essence, then replacing it is a major change. If you consider only the business end of the weapon to be the weapon, i.e. the ax head, you can replace the handle without changing the fundamental weapon. This interpretation makes more sense to me based on having to service garage and garden tools in the past but might not fix with your vision.

Also, if you're looking for a good karma sync here you go. As a general rule I allow active players a minor rewrite once a new book becomes available. This is mostly because they were aware of much of it from past versions and I'd rather hear less bitching than fleece them for cash that way. I have plenty of other ways to flush away their nuyen.
JoelHalpern
There is one accessory that I wonder about. And it makes a big difference in practice.
The internal smartgun accessory. (Yes, there is an external smartgun accessory. But there is an internal one.)
If you are worrying about gun size, you tend to want the internal accessory. But one is tempted to conclude that an internal accessory ought to count as a modification, taking the same slot count as the internal smartgun modification.

Joel
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ Jul 10 2008, 11:34 PM) *
There is one accessory that I wonder about. And it makes a big difference in practice.
The internal smartgun accessory. (Yes, there is an external smartgun accessory. But there is an internal one.)
If you are worrying about gun size, you tend to want the internal accessory. But one is tempted to conclude that an internal accessory ought to count as a modification, taking the same slot count as the internal smartgun modification.

Joel

Internal smartgun modifications still count as modification (unless of course it comes stock with the weapon, eg. Smartgun-x). The advantage is not saving modification slots, but not having to use an overbarrel/underbarrel mount for the smartgun, so you have those slots for other mods.
Ustio
With regard to the weapon focus query i thinkk MR Terry Pratcheet has the best answer (somewhat paraphrased)

Dwarf: This is my ancestors axe, though the haft has been changed as well as the head, but still it is the same axe, because the truth of the thing is the whole of the thing


See everything can be solved with discworld refrences
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Jul 10 2008, 06:25 PM) *
A second related question I've only just gotten Arsenal and one modification Personalized Grip works on melee weapons. Now I have a monowhip which I'd love to have a personalized grip the problem is, well its also a weapon foci.

I wouldn't make you pay karma to retune the focus, but I would make you be very picky with the materials you use. Too much processed materials, and the enchantment might get wonky.

Rather than get one of those off-the-shelf kits where you dip the plastic grip in hot water and then squeeze it into shape, I would have you get inserts made by traditional means from natural materials. Essentially, someone will have to use sandpaper (or even better, a rock) on chunks of wood, and then cover it in leather wrapping to hold it in place.

Though if your character has the contacts and resources to get something as high-tech as a mono whip enchanted, this will be no problem for your character.
Rad
While we're on the subject, what does arsenal say about barrel/top/under mounted accessories and concealability?

I'm going into my first SR game soon, and while I don't have Arsenal, my GM does, so I'd rather not bring out a character I've designed and find out that his equipment functions differently (or is no longer allowed) than it did when I was picking it out.

(I'd especially not like to find this out mid-game, when the star pats me down and discovers that illegal backup weapon I have hidden under my coat.)
Tarantula
Doesn't say anything, but patdowns get a gigantic bonus for finding shit. Agi+Int for the searcher, and your shit only gets half its concealability.
At most, they take a -3 to the roll and still have enough to find just about anything.
JoelHalpern
I have tended to assume that large external additions would give a bonus for spotting the weapon. I.e. a weapon with an internal smartlink should be easier to conceal than one with an external smartlink. Similarly, a weapon with a large scope / laser sight above the barrel (rather than a built in laser sight) would seem to be easier to spot.
As far as I can tell, RAW does not say this. But in helping my player recently design pistols that are reasonably concealable, that is what I assumed. (The one character I am playing only shoots LMGs, so concealability is not the question he asks.)

Joel
CanRay
"So I hide the Panther Assault Cannon in my Trenchcoat..." "Not fraggin' likely." "Duffel Bag?" "OK, you have a very butch Pather Cozy."
Jack Kain
Your best bet is to make sure you have all the right licenses, firearms, conceal and carry for any restricted gear.
My Elf has a few ranks in palming which in conjunction with his high agility can aid him in escaping numerous pat downs. Searches are after all an opposed tests when ever your intentionally trying to hide anything.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Jul 12 2008, 02:43 PM) *
Your best bet is to make sure you have all the right licenses, firearms, conceal and carry for any restricted gear.
My Elf has a few ranks in palming which in conjunction with his high agility can aid him in escaping numerous pat downs. Searches are after all an opposed tests when ever your intentionally trying to hide anything.

Palming covers "small objects" not Ares Predators. grinbig.gif

Lets say anything "palm" sized or smaller. grinbig.gif edit: and yes a Troll's palm definition is different than a Elf's. grinbig.gif

WMS
JoelHalpern
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Jul 12 2008, 05:24 PM) *
Palming covers "small objects" not Ares Predators. grinbig.gif

Lets say anything "palm" sized or smaller. grinbig.gif edit: and yes a Troll's palm definition is different than a Elf's. grinbig.gif

WMS


Sorry, but while that makes good sense, it is not what the book says.
The section on page 301 of the BBB is all about concealing items. The second paragraph begins "To determine if someone notices a worn or carried item, ..." It continues, clearly talking about worn or carried items, "If a character is intentionally trying to hide something, treat this as an Opposed Test against the concealing character's Palming + Agility Test."

So while Palming would seem to apply only to items hidden in ones hand, the rules use it as the general skill of hiding something on ones person.

And the skill description on page 114 specifically states "This skill is used to conceal small objects about the character."
Now, one could still argue about the size, if all we had was the skill description. But the combination of the two text sections makes it clear that the rules intend this for concealing any vaguely concealable items on the person. that's why there is a table of concealment modifiers for all those odd things.
(Obviously, this still requires common sense. Some things just don;t conceal. The only question is whether the observer is doing his job with his eyes open or closed.)

Yours,
Joel

Jack Kain
Your joking right? People have "palmed" heavy pistols and even submachine guns in real life concealing them from notice. There have been real cases of good sized hand guns making it past a security pat downs and your going to tell me that a shadowrunner is not capable of performing a feat that

RAW: When intentionally trying to hide something its an opposed test against the the concealing characters palming + agility test.

And really no matter how concealable your gun is, its rather moot if its not immune to MAD scanners because if they really want to search you its simpler to use that then pat you down all over.


Mx
If they want to be sure they use a cyberware scanner
WearzManySkins
grinbig.gif Sorry by the RAW, Mr. Lucky can LongShot into a Tank and Kill the driver/tank.

Me as a GM says no. End of Line. grinbig.gif

You must have never undergone the "pat downs" I underwent, but that was by LEO's, I guess you would put their rating fairly high.

WMS
Jack Kain
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Jul 12 2008, 06:03 PM) *
grinbig.gif Sorry by the RAW, Mr. Lucky can LongShot into a Tank and Kill the driver/tank.

Me as a GM says no. End of Line. grinbig.gif

You must have never undergone the "pat downs" I underwent, but that was by LEO's, I guess you would put their rating fairly high.

WMS



And what fun is a game where a simple pat down on everyone is the ultimate unbeatable security check for weapons?
WearzManySkins
We each have our level of what is defined as "Fun".

"Pat Downs" can be beaten, but first the item/weapon must be "small" enough, not full sized handgun/firearm/panther assault cannon/back pak nuke. grinbig.gif

WMS
Jack Kain
Which about limits the items to a size you could stick up your behind.
JoelHalpern
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 12 2008, 06:20 PM) *
If they want to be sure they use a cyberware scanner


One of the minor questions is how much does a magscanner detect?
The case I am thinking of has probably been dsicussed to death elsewhere. A gun concealed in a cyber-arm.
A dedicated cyberwear detector can presumably, on a good roll, notice that there is too much metal in the arm.
But it would seem that a metal detector is just going to go "ping" at a nice, obvious, cyber-arm.
Do most people give the operators a roll to realize there is a gun hidden in there? (At what threshold?)
Or am being obtuse?

Thanks,
Joel
Tarantula
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Jul 12 2008, 04:03 PM) *
grinbig.gif Sorry by the RAW, Mr. Lucky can LongShot into a Tank and Kill the driver/tank.

Me as a GM says no. End of Line. grinbig.gif

You must have never undergone the "pat downs" I underwent, but that was by LEO's, I guess you would put their rating fairly high.

WMS


Actually, by raw, no, he can't, PM me if you feel like arguing about it, I just had make a point on that since its a common one thrown around that is completely false.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Jul 12 2008, 05:48 PM) *
Which about limits the items to a size you could stick up your behind.

grinbig.gif Well my rating for "pat downs" is not in the league of LEO's but I would easily find a full sized pistol on your person, but like the LEO's your hands are in the open and in a exposed position, and the pat down is not finished until any dancing around on your part is done. grinbig.gif

No small objects do not always have to be rectally inserted, grinbig.gif IG I have "sneaked" two detonators past a pat down and a scan.

Cyberwear based/installed weapons are not with in the detection ability of a pat down, now various scanners give in one form or another to have a chance to detect same.

Weapons scanners generally are faster than pat downs. Weapons scanners can be "Sneaked" past by a properly configured/made/modded weapon.

Pat downs would have a good chance to detect a weapon that got past a scanner, but then again one small enough and configured/modded/made can get past a pat down.

WMS
psychophipps
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Jul 12 2008, 05:07 PM) *
grinbig.gif Well my rating for "pat downs" is not in the league of LEO's but I would easily find a full sized pistol on your person, but like the LEO's your hands are in the open and in a exposed position, and the pat down is not finished until any dancing around on your part is done. grinbig.gif

No small objects do not always have to be rectally inserted, grinbig.gif IG I have "sneaked" two detonators past a pat down and a scan.

Cyberwear based/installed weapons are not with in the detection ability of a pat down, now various scanners give in one form or another to have a chance to detect same.

Weapons scanners generally are faster than pat downs. Weapons scanners can be "Sneaked" past by a properly configured/made/modded weapon.

Pat downs would have a good chance to detect a weapon that got past a scanner, but then again one small enough and configured/modded/made can get past a pat down.

WMS


As for hold-out pistols and no slots for laser sights, I give you this:

Ruger LCP laser sight

Pat downs are rather easy to get around as long as you can make the weapon feel like something normal. Many pocket holsters for snubbies and small-frame autos are designed to make the outline of the gun look like a wallet, as an example. Just put a wallet-shaped stiff bit of leather over the top of the weapon towards the outside of your pocket and any pat-down will think it's a wallet unless they also heft the "wallet" in the pocket to be sure.
Another trick is a Smart Carry-type holster where the weapon is behind your belt around your general crotch area. Just place the handle of the weapon behind your belt buckle and unless they really give you a good grope then you'll pass muster without much worry.
The main issue of the pat-down is how serious you are about it and the level of training of the searcher. They're going for a "plain feel" for contraband and such (in the example of police) and how thorough they are can vary widely based upon the threat level they're getting from you or from the job. You go to a concert, as an example, and that is barely anything. I could get a gun into a no-detector concert without any issue with a bit of planning. A police officer, in the interest of not getting dead, will hopefully give a much more thorough and systematic search that will come up with much more information.

+2 dice modifier for actual systematic search training would probably make sense in this regard. Public and corp-sec cops, bodyguards, and tactical units would be your most common examples for this.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jul 12 2008, 07:30 PM) *
As for hold-out pistols and no slots for laser sights, I give you this:

Ruger LCP laser sight

Pat downs are rather easy to get around as long as you can make the weapon feel like something normal. Many pocket holsters for snubbies and small-frame autos are designed to make the outline of the gun look like a wallet, as an example. Just put a wallet-shaped stiff bit of leather over the top of the weapon towards the outside of your pocket and any pat-down will think it's a wallet unless they also heft the "wallet" in the pocket to be sure.
Another trick is a Smart Carry-type holster where the weapon is behind your belt around your general crotch area. Just place the handle of the weapon behind your belt buckle and unless they really give you a good grope then you'll pass muster without much worry.
The main issue of the pat-down is how serious you are about it and the level of training of the searcher. They're going for a "plain feel" for contraband and such (in the example of police) and how thorough they are can vary widely based upon the threat level they're getting from you or from the job. You go to a concert, as an example, and that is barely anything. I could get a gun into a no-detector concert without any issue with a bit of planning. A police officer, in the interest of not getting dead, will hopefully give a much more thorough and systematic search that will come up with much more information.

+2 dice modifier for actual systematic search training would probably make sense in this regard. Public and corp-sec cops, bodyguards, and tactical units would be your most common examples for this.

The first weapon is smaller than a full sized pistol.

The second method is under properly configured/made/modded weapons. grinbig.gif Shame I wear Braces rather than a Belt. grinbig.gif

Interesting note, what you listed in making the weapon feel like something else you listed/posted, no "palming" skill is needed. grinbig.gif But shows what proper preparation can do. Kudos.

WMS
psychophipps
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Jul 12 2008, 06:43 PM) *
The first weapon is smaller than a full sized pistol.

The second method is under properly configured/made/modded weapons. grinbig.gif Shame I wear Braces rather than a Belt. grinbig.gif

Interesting note, what you listed in making the weapon feel like something else you listed/posted, no "palming" skill is needed. grinbig.gif But shows what proper preparation can do. Kudos.

WMS


I see the second as simply being a "Concealment Holster" rather than an actual weapon mod. Well made IWB (In the WaistBand) holsters and a well-made OWB (Out of WaistBand) holsters will also count for this specification with a cover garment used with the latter.
Special quick-draw type holsters are designed for quick access and easy draw more than concealment so I feel that SR4 did it just right in this regard. Kudos to the design team for this one.

Other good potential mods for weapons are tritium or similar glowing Night Sights (-1 dice to "Shooting in Darkness" penalties) and Collimating/Reflex Sights (treat the first simple action of aiming as two simple actions of aiming).
Zaranthan
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Jul 12 2008, 08:43 PM) *
Interesting note, what you listed in making the weapon feel like something else you listed/posted, no "palming" skill is needed. grinbig.gif But shows what proper preparation can do. Kudos.

I'm fairly certain that even if somebody handed me that stuff, I couldn't sneak a saturday night special past a blind man with one arm. Heck, with my luck, even if I Edged the roll, the darn holster would probably shake loose as I walked because I don't know how to set the clasp by feel. Knowing how to arrange all that so somebody who knows what they're looking for won't find it isn't common knowledge.

I'd say this falls under needing both the skills and the gear to do the job. 14 dice for rappelling won't get you far without a rope, and a 10k nuyen.gif climber's kit won't operate the pulleys without a skilled operator.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Zaranthan @ Jul 12 2008, 07:21 PM) *
I'm fairly certain that even if somebody handed me that stuff, I couldn't sneak a saturday night special past a blind man with one arm. Heck, with my luck, even if I Edged the roll, the darn holster would probably shake loose as I walked because I don't know how to set the clasp by feel. Knowing how to arrange all that so somebody who knows what they're looking for won't find it isn't common knowledge.

I'd say this falls under needing both the skills and the gear to do the job. 14 dice for rappelling won't get you far without a rope, and a 10k nuyen.gif climber's kit won't operate the pulleys without a skilled operator.


And you would be quite wrong, my friend. A decent holster/belt setup will allow just about anyone to effectively carry a concealed firearm or knife without 99% of people noticing.
There are two reasons for this. First, a good holster with a good belt will keep the weapon close to your body which will decrease it's outline in relation to your own silhouette. Second, most people are little bliss-ninnies that have no real clue what is going on around them. I open carry on a regular basis and maybe one person in twenty seems to notice my full-size Glock on my right hip or my two 17-round magazines on my left hip even when I'm wearing a white t-shirt and tan shorts that contrast quite well against my black pistol and holster/magazine carrier. To further give you an idea, I regularly see pictures of people carrying full-size pistols well concealed with nothing more complex than a good holster/belt and a t-shirt. Add to this that a good holster can't help but be correctly fitted, there is only one way to snap a leather loop around your belt or slide the belt through the belt holes after all, and you're good to go.
The biggest issue, and this is where most criminals screw up, is that people new to carrying weapons will give tells about their carrying status. They will touch the weapon frequently. Pull their shirt bottoms down over a holster. Walk funny because one hip weighs more than the other (which is why you should balance your weapon with an opposite-hip magazine or two). Hike up their pants because they have a sucky Wal-Mart belt. Let the grip get shifted between the weapon and your side. Not use a holster at all so it's always wiggling around on them. Etc. Etc. Cops and other security-types are trained to look for these tells along with other dress and body language clues to separate the sheep from the wolves.
Zaranthan
Wow, good answer. My security checkpoints just got a lot more realistic. Thanks.

To keep banging my head against the wall, though, would you say that being aware of such tells and having the discipline to restrain them might fall under the purview of Palming, given that that's the context it's purported to cover? (Although, perhaps it should be linked to Intuition or Charisma in that usage.)
psychophipps
QUOTE (Zaranthan @ Jul 13 2008, 05:12 AM) *
Wow, good answer. My security checkpoints just got a lot more realistic. Thanks.

To keep banging my head against the wall, though, would you say that being aware of such tells and having the discipline to restrain them might fall under the purview of Palming, given that that's the context it's purported to cover? (Although, perhaps it should be linked to Intuition or Charisma in that usage.)


The other thing to keep track off is that fact that it's a security checkpoint. Yeah, it's obvious but you have to think the way that a bored, typically-underpaid guard thinks. Your station has has a big "NO WEAPONS, BITCHES!" sign up. A big ol' nasty-looking scanner gateway that is obvious to everyone. "Who would really give it a go when it's so obvious it's a bad idea?", you're thinking as another blue hair with a fancy silver hand mirror sets off the alarm...again. You then get some yahoo looking like every other yahoo walking through with some Hugh Jass rodeo belt buckle and a harried look on his face. You run the wand after the gate goes off and it only beeps at the belt buckle so you just might let it slide this time...

Palming would only count if the guard got "hands on", IMO.
Rad
I appreciate having my question answered, but I think people are getting a little confused about what the palming skill actually means.

IRL, "palming" doesn't just mean "hiding things in your palm", it is also a general term for various "slight of hand" maneuvers. Again, the term "hand" is used, but it doesn't mean just hiding things in your hands. Ever hear the phrase "nothing up my sleeve"?

Palming is about using subtle muscle control to distract or disguise movement. Remember, when you palm that datachip off the counter, you aren't just grabbing it and making it disappear into your fist, you're also controlling your entire arm and body movements so it looks like you just walked by. Hiding the object in your palm wouldn't do much good if everybody saw you reach for it.

As an example: Say you're in a corporate lobby. Your inside guy has left a keycard laying on the table next to some magazines, but on the other side of the room is the security desk and the guard's already giving you the eye. You don't want to take the time to sit down and pretend you're reading a magazine, especially since that would mean turning your back on Mr. Corpsec, so you casually stroll by, with the table on your left and the guard on your right.

As you pass by the table, you reach out with your left hand, using your body to block the guard's view and carefully eliminating any tell-tale changes in body movement, snatch the keycard off the desk, and keep moving.

Then you stop a few feet later, and casually put your left hand into your pocket (depositing the card) while with your right you pull out your commlink to check the time. Swearing under your breath like you've just been stood up, you turn around and walk out the door. Whatever suspicions the guard may have had, he's relieved to see you go without pulling anything on his shift. And he knows you didn't do anything besides stand in the lobby and pace, because he was watching you the entire time... biggrin.gif
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