IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> A Few Weird Things from Unwired, Hmmm...
Cheops
post Jul 27 2008, 12:09 AM
Post #1


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,512
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 392



Nexi and Customization:

As far as I can tell, a nexi can be modified with the options in the gear chapter. If I can have 9 personas running off the nexus and the nexus has say Response Enhancer and Optimization do all 9 personas get the bonuses?

Clusters and Optimization:

So Optimization can only be done once per commlink/nexus and applies to 1 test. What if I cluster 10 different devices each with a different optimization? Do I get bonuses to all 10 actions?

As a corollary, what if I have 1 nexus in a cluster that has Response Enhancer. Does it still apply?

Implication: cluster of 10 Renraku Retailer Hubs (60,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ), each optimized (5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ), 1 with response enhancement 3 (6000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ), 1 with Simsense Accelerator (15000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) equals a down payment of 86,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . You could have 100 hackers hooked up to this thing each getting +1 die to their rolls. Step aside Agent Smith. We all have Init 8/4 and we don't need to make pilot checks to

Final Rant:

Forging SINs -- Who the fuck does this anymore? How do you make a living?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Jul 27 2008, 12:16 AM
Post #2


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



QUOTE (Cheops @ Jul 27 2008, 12:09 AM) *
Final Rant:

Forging SINs -- Who the fuck does this anymore? How do you make a living?

Hey, one I can answer: not shadowrunners. There are professionals that can do it much easier because they have extensive contacts and backdoors into the right systems. It's not the same as making a fake ID card with a color printer and a laminater today.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gunbunny
post Jul 27 2008, 03:21 AM
Post #3


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 32
Joined: 20-June 06
From: The Shadows of...the cornfields?
Member No.: 8,755



Tell me about it. The time needed to forge a SIN is much horridly longer than the time you can acquire a Fake SIN. As the rating increases, so does the time. However...it seems to me that Fake SINs would become a whole helluva lot more scarce, as the SINs (at least in my game) are bought faster than the forgers can produce them. Demand is greater than supply, and simple economics apply...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sir_Psycho
post Jul 27 2008, 04:25 AM
Post #4


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,629
Joined: 14-December 06
Member No.: 10,361



The answer to that is that due to the backdoors and exploits they have prepared (as well as SIN registry deckers paid off to look the other way) they can get it done quicker due to specialised dice pools and contacts.

Also, I imagine that they cultivate fake SINs that they leave in the system, and then when you want the SIN, they just attach your biometrics and mugshot as required.

As for the optimization question. I'd say that your commlink is the primary node, with the nexi slaved to it, so you are running 1 persona, not 9. Therefore the programs are run on the Nexi, and your commlink is the bottleneck. To run an R6 Program on a nexus, you need the nexus to have system and response at r6. Then to run those at the full rating, you need your commlink to also have R6 response and system to use those programs. If you had the same nexus and an R4 commlink, I'd limit those programs to 4.

So you can do it, but there is an associated, and balancing, cost to it.

However I'd rule that 100 hackers couldn't use it to run their programs, as you can't run 1 program on the same system on two personas. Also, even if it was possible, I don't think hackers would want to share Nexi like that. If one hacker screws up and gets traced and burned, then the Nexi is compromised.

Personally, what I'd do is add the Optimization: Stealth modification to my commlink, and then have exploit optimised on the nexus. And you could repeat this with more nexi, but like I said, that would be prohibitively expensive. And I wouldn't even use a nexus. I'd use another commlink, because I can carry that, and have it slaved via fiber-optic cable, rather than wirelessly, which is not secure. If you're just running the one program (the optimised one) on the clustered node, you don't need a huge processor limit anyway.

However, if you're a VR hacker working from a vehicle, it's an awesome strategy to keep a nexus in a (shielded) smuggling compartment under your seat. Because then you can plug into the nexus, slave it to your commlink, and keep it off the Matrix. Also, if you're slaving via hardlines, then you can skimp on Firewall, as everything needs to get through your commlink, you, and it's IC to get to the Nexus/Nexi.

As for the response enhancer, I'd say that only applies to the primary node, so you'd need that on your commlink, not the nexi.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cheops
post Jul 27 2008, 07:21 AM
Post #5


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,512
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 392



@Ancient History: So are there rules for specialized Forgers that differ from the rules presented? As it is right now even they don't have any short cuts.

@Sir Psycho: Where to begin?

I didn't say Commlink anywhere in my post did I? They are running completely off the nexi which generate personas. There is only 1 node--the 10 nexi. Period. Furthermore, nexi are not limited by Response = System. You do not need a commlink because the programs run on the nexus.

I also would rule that two personas cannot use the same program. But I did not speak about a program. maybe I wasn't clear enough that this is about the Optimization customization and not the optimization program option. That makes this can of worms even more wriggly.

I think you also kind of missed the point of my post. This is NOT prohibitively expensive. The Hardware costs 86,000 nuyen. That's easily managed by mid-tier gangs. All it takes in terms of software is 10 Rating 1 Browse utilities and the hackers go and download all the rest of their software at 10% cost. And by the way they can run 100 programs with no problem (or 2 per hacker).

Toys anyone?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 27 2008, 08:46 AM
Post #6


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 27 2008, 02:16 AM) *
Hey, one I can answer: not shadowrunners. There are professionals that can do it much easier because they have extensive contacts and backdoors into the right systems.

Yay, "PCs aren't allowed to do that, only NPCs are.".

By RAW, these 'professionals' now are as screwed as 'shadowrunners', because their backdoors and contacts don't factor in with those rules, at all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryu
post Jul 27 2008, 08:51 AM
Post #7


Awakened Asset
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,464
Joined: 9-April 05
From: AGS, North German League
Member No.: 7,309



Nexi and Customization: If you can indeed optimise a nexus with comlink add-ons, it grants a bonus to every user. IĀ“d probably allow it.

Clusters and Optimization/Response enhancer/ other: Individual device limitations play no role, so individual advantages should not, too. The basic problem is an array of comlinks instead of nexi.

Forging SINs: Tweak the SIN rules until they make sense and facilitate a good game. Adjusting the threshold and interval until the hacker can occasionally forge his own is likely a good idea, especially since Stuffer Shack may kill the SIN on the first transaction.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sir_Psycho
post Jul 27 2008, 09:37 AM
Post #8


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,629
Joined: 14-December 06
Member No.: 10,361



Well if whoever is doing this can't use commlinks for some arbitrary reason, and have to stick to this huge cluster of Nexi towers, then they've got a problem to worry about. They're hardly mobile. 1 Trace IC or 1 enemy hacker running a Track program has suddenly compromised your location. And what are you going to do? Abandon 86,000 worth of gear? Not to mention the place where you keep the gear? You could probably move the nexi in a semi-trailer, but a trace could still pinpoint that, and then whoever's traced you will report the vehicle to the relevant authority (or come after you themselves), and good luck trying to outrun anything in something designed to carry 10 Nexi.

Also, if I have to stick completely to your example, there's not really any rules concerning it, as far as I know, so I'd rule that the nexi are still bottle-necked by the fact that there is only 1 response enhancer. Distributing that response increase to 10 different nodes and then dividing that processing power between 100 hackers? I don't think they're going to get any extra response out of that. At least that's how I would rule it.

As for a Simsense Accelerator? I'd rule that's a personal interface modification. It's advanced tech that cranks simsense signal fidelity and speed between the brain and whatever node is running the persona. I imagine it would break-down if you tried to get a bunch of hackers to use the same interface. Just like if all the hackers were sharing 1 sim module.

So by my ruling, if you want to get the bonus you suggested, for say, 10 hackers (for ease of multiplication), you'd need to get the response enhancer modification 10 times (for each Nexus), and the Simsense Accelerator 10 times for each hacker. That comes closer to the tune of 320,000 nuyen. If you want the same for 100 hackers it's 1,670,000 nuyen. That's prohibitively expensive, at least if I'm GM.

But then again, in your (frankly ridiculous) example, these cabal of crazy hackers must be splitting the cost between all of them, and that only comes to 16,700 if you divide it. So sure, you can do it, if you really want.

But what did you expect? If you push the rules too far they break down. It's the same with any min/maxed character or piece of gear. There's a point where you can break the system. By RAW, there's not much stopping me from getting a MCT Fly-Spy, equipping it with a MGL-6 with a 100 round canister, autofire and a smartlink and having it insta-gib nearly everything.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Prime Mover
post Jul 27 2008, 01:10 PM
Post #9


Shooting Target
****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 5-September 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 9,313



[quote] But what did you expect? If you push the rules too far they break down. It's the same with any min/maxed character or piece of gear. There's a point where you can break the system. By RAW, there's not much stopping me from getting a MCT Fly-Spy, equipping it with a MGL-6 with a 100 round canister, autofire and a smartlink and having it insta-gib nearly everything. [quote]

Seen something like this before, you can't equip a fly spy with a weapon? Minimum body of 3 required for weapon mounts? No rules but loopholes for making a full auto grenade launcher. We've houseruled standard autofire rules and +1 meter blast radius per additional round fired...eveel toy.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sir_Psycho
post Jul 27 2008, 02:10 PM
Post #10


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,629
Joined: 14-December 06
Member No.: 10,361



Even a full auto airburst grenade launcher in some-one's hands is completely game-winning.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cheops
post Jul 27 2008, 03:11 PM
Post #11


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,512
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 392



QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 27 2008, 09:37 AM) *
Well if whoever is doing this can't use commlinks for some arbitrary reason, and have to stick to this huge cluster of Nexi towers, then they've got a problem to worry about. They're hardly mobile. 1 Trace IC or 1 enemy hacker running a Track program has suddenly compromised your location. And what are you going to do? Abandon 86,000 worth of gear? Not to mention the place where you keep the gear? You could probably move the nexi in a semi-trailer, but a trace could still pinpoint that, and then whoever's traced you will report the vehicle to the relevant authority (or come after you themselves), and good luck trying to outrun anything in something designed to carry 10 Nexi.


I appreciate everyone's comments on the customization questions, especially Ryu's as being simplest and making most sense. I do so very much hope that the Forgery table gets errataed in much the same way as the Ocular Drone.

Again, Sir Psycho, you show that you must not have gotten your hands on a copy of Unwired. By dropping the Response of this cluster to 1, they become untraceable. Thank you however for pointing out that this arrangement costs and extra 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for the Satellite Uplink I forgot to calculate earlier.

This is certainly not a viable tactic for shadowrunners. I don't play SR, I GM it. As a result I tend to think of things from the other side of the shadows. Imagine something like Fagin's gag (Oliver Twist). One good criminal hacker gathers up several dozen children in a warehouse somewhere and has them working simple hacking scripts. Or how about like my aforementioned Toys. 100 kids playing "video games" all day long when in fact the maniacal corp sec guy actually has them hooked up to drones and are wasting runners?

Here's another bit of stupidity that works for SR teams of 6. Nexi with Res 3, Sys 6, F 6, Sig 8, Persona Limit 1, Processor Limit 10. This costs 5300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . 5 Commlinks with Res 3, Sys 6, F 6, Sig 8 is 46,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Oh, just to make sure lets include 10 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) of cabling and 1 custom slot to hardwire the sat uplinks into our systems. I don't see anywhere where it says you have to physically link the cluster together so this is mobile BTW.

So you now have the following cluster: same stats as above, Persona Limit 6, Processor Limit 20. Much easier for the hacker to run security for the team and it also allows him to use up the excess bandwidth that the other runners hardly EVER use. The hacker uses the Nexi persona so that he is not limited by Response although all this does is save him 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per program and 60 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per month. However that gets into the stupidity of the Optimization program option which as I've said is a whole other kettle of fish.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Jul 27 2008, 03:27 PM
Post #12


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jul 27 2008, 08:46 AM) *
Yay, "PCs aren't allowed to do that, only NPCs are.".

By RAW, these 'professionals' now are as screwed as 'shadowrunners', because their backdoors and contacts don't factor in with those rules, at all.

"If it were easy, everyone would do it."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sir_Psycho
post Jul 27 2008, 03:31 PM
Post #13


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,629
Joined: 14-December 06
Member No.: 10,361



QUOTE (Cheops @ Jul 27 2008, 11:11 AM) *
I appreciate everyone's comments on the customization questions, especially Ryu's as being simplest and making most sense. I do so very much hope that the Forgery table gets errataed in much the same way as the Ocular Drone.

Again, Sir Psycho, you show that you must not have gotten your hands on a copy of Unwired. By dropping the Response of this cluster to 1, they become untraceable. Thank you however for pointing out that this arrangement costs and extra 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for the Satellite Uplink I forgot to calculate earlier.
This is certainly not a viable tactic for shadowrunners. I don't play SR, I GM it. As a result I tend to think of things from the other side of the shadows. Imagine something like Fagin's gag (Oliver Twist). One good criminal hacker gathers up several dozen children in a warehouse somewhere and has them working simple hacking scripts. Or how about like my aforementioned Toys. 100 kids playing "video games" all day long when in fact the maniacal corp sec guy actually has them hooked up to drones and are wasting runners?

Here's another bit of stupidity that works for SR teams of 6. Nexi with Res 3, Sys 6, F 6, Sig 8, Persona Limit 1, Processor Limit 10. This costs 5300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . 5 Commlinks with Res 3, Sys 6, F 6, Sig 8 is 46,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Oh, just to make sure lets include 10 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) of cabling and 1 custom slot to hardwire the sat uplinks into our systems. I don't see anywhere where it says you have to physically link the cluster together so this is mobile BTW.

So you now have the following cluster: same stats as above, Persona Limit 6, Processor Limit 20. Much easier for the hacker to run security for the team and it also allows him to use up the excess bandwidth that the other runners hardly EVER use. The hacker uses the Nexi persona so that he is not limited by Response although all this does is save him 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per program and 60 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per month. However that gets into the stupidity of the Optimization program option which as I've said is a whole other kettle of fish.

Well now I'm embarassed. I do have Unwired, but haven't memorized the clustering rules. I still don't think that 1 response enhancer will speed up a whole cluster, and I still don't think a Simsense Accelerator can be used by multiple personae. But you're spot on (at least IMO) with the rest of your clustering. And it's interesting food for thought

Of course you don't have to hardwire the cluster together, but it increases security exponentially to keep matrix access to one chokepoint (I'd use a commlink for mobility and convenience.)

It changes everything that you're coming at this purely from a GM perspective, though, as your NPC's can do whatever the hell they want. It's PC's you have to give hard limits. Hell, by GM fiat, you can make SR clones sentient with memories and all.

However, the bolded text? That wasn't one of the extra costs I pointed out, but I'll take the compliment and hold it close to my heart for ever and ever. But given that the title is "a few weird things from Unwired", how do you feel about Satlinks making you untraceable? It seems silly to me. If you can get the uplink data from the sattelite, I'm sure you could triangulate the signal source. Just because you're shooting data at a wide dish, doesn't mean it doesn't need to pinpoint your location to send you data back.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cheops
post Jul 27 2008, 04:53 PM
Post #14


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,512
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 392



QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 27 2008, 04:31 PM) *
Well now I'm embarassed. I do have Unwired, but haven't memorized the clustering rules. I still don't think that 1 response enhancer will speed up a whole cluster, and I still don't think a Simsense Accelerator can be used by multiple personae. But you're spot on (at least IMO) with the rest of your clustering. And it's interesting food for thought

However, the bolded text? That wasn't one of the extra costs I pointed out, but I'll take the compliment and hold it close to my heart for ever and ever. But given that the title is "a few weird things from Unwired", how do you feel about Satlinks making you untraceable? It seems silly to me. If you can get the uplink data from the sattelite, I'm sure you could triangulate the signal source. Just because you're shooting data at a wide dish, doesn't mean it doesn't need to pinpoint your location to send you data back.


To be fair I haven't memorized the clustering rules either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) I just look at Unwired while I post stuff about it.
I have accepted your guys' ideas on the customization question and it only applies to the one device and not the whole cluster.

I actually like the fact that satellites can make you untraceable. It obviously needs some clearing up, such as how it affects nexi and TMs (who aren't terribly penalized for using it), but I think it actually gives PC hackers a chance in hell of actually being useful. As to technical aspects, I'm a financial analyst and don't know jack shit about the technical aspects of sat communication other than it lets people use their blackberries anywhere they go.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sir_Psycho
post Jul 28 2008, 01:44 AM
Post #15


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,629
Joined: 14-December 06
Member No.: 10,361



It's not very technical at all really. I'm just suggesting that any matrix connection is a two-way connection. Data is being transmitted and received from both ends, because you need to send actions and code to your persona, and your persona needs to send information and files back to you. And this has to be simultaneous.

So if the sattelite has to send data down the the shadowrunner's sattelite link, it needs to know where he is. And if it knows where he is, you should be able to trace him.

This isn't to say I don't like the idea of sattelite links being useful for not being traced, but I don't think it should be an arbitrary restriction. "you CAN'T be traced" seems silly to me. Why not a big DP modifier? It seems to me as if the armour rules were "you're wearing armour, so you CAN'T be killed by bullets"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 28 2008, 07:58 AM
Post #16


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 28 2008, 03:44 AM) *
So if the sattelite has to send data down the the shadowrunner's sattelite link, it needs to know where he is. And if it knows where he is, you should be able to trace him.

The answer is right on p. 50 & 51.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryu
post Jul 28 2008, 12:53 PM
Post #17


Awakened Asset
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,464
Joined: 9-April 05
From: AGS, North German League
Member No.: 7,309



QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 27 2008, 05:27 PM) *
"If it were easy, everyone would do it."


Taking that argument for real... what would be the problem with everyone doing it?

The threshold is large enough to justify using expected values, so you need to roll 96 dice to make 1 SIN rating point. A rating 6 SIN is still associated with a measureable chance of failure against the weakest verification device, but an (Edit 6, Forgery 6(SINs+2)) Hacker will need 574/14 = 41 weeks to make one.

Now if the interval was days, it would still be financially stupid to go DIY, and take too long to make a difference for most runs. The option as it stands has no value. IĀ“d go for limited rerolls, dividing hits by X (rounding down) to get to the rating of the SIN. LetĀ“s say (Forgery) as a limit on rerolls, dividing hits by three. Then IĀ“d reduce the interval to days. A few days of work and a series of hacking jobs on one side and a bill of up to 6kĀ„ on the other...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cheops
post Jul 28 2008, 01:43 PM
Post #18


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,512
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 392



QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jul 28 2008, 08:58 AM) *
The answer is right on p. 50 & 51.


So it is simply a matter that since the satellite doesn't move it doesn't give you a few different reference points with which to triangulate? The tracker just knows that someone in that coverage area is using the sat.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sir_Psycho
post Jul 28 2008, 02:29 PM
Post #19


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,629
Joined: 14-December 06
Member No.: 10,361



QUOTE (p50-51)
Satellite Links
Commlinks and other nodes can use a direct satellite link to
connect to geostationary satellites and satellites in lower earth orbits
(LOE). The advantage of using a geostationary satellite uplink
is that your location cannot be pinpointed via trace any more precisely
than a range of a few hundred of kilometers
. This means that
track programs are not able to determine the location of somebody
using a direct satellite uplink. Unfortunately, the geostationary
orbit is quite far away from earth (36,000 km), so data requests
can be delayed by as much as a second. This second heavily affects
and delays all Matrix interactions. The Response of a hacker using
a geostationary satellite is thus halved (to a minimum of 1).

How is that an answer? The data should be there? Unless you shoot data at the sattelite and then it just barrages hundereds of kilometers of the earth's surface with data, but how is that secure?

I wouldn't have a problem with it if it was effectively balanced, but it's not, its a minor hit to your response (I still get my 5 Initiative Passes, I just might not go first in matrix combat) and an immunity to traces. It's the new one hit wonder for hackers, riggers, and everyone else. Put a satlink on every drone you have. If you're connected to it via satlink and vice versa, you can disable wireless and are unhackable. There's no need for physical attributes anymore either, because you can lock yourself in a bunker with a steady flow of food and never come out. No-one can poison your food either, because it can't be traced back to you.

Ok, i'm being a little melodramatic, but I just want an explanation. And the only explanation is "because it can't".
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Jul 28 2008, 02:48 PM
Post #20


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 28 2008, 01:53 PM) *
Taking that argument for real... what would be the problem with everyone doing it?

Fake SINs are already too cheap as they stand. Players already burn through fake SINs at a terrible rate. Making it quick and easy for players to forge their own SINs (as opposed to stripping them, which you'll notice is fairly easy) was deemed a Bad Idea.

As far as the weeks interval goes, that might be another one for the errata, one of those artifacts you get when changing things between drafts. It is what it is right now, though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Heath Robinson
post Jul 28 2008, 03:35 PM
Post #21


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,263
Joined: 4-March 08
From: Blighty
Member No.: 15,736



QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 28 2008, 03:29 PM) *
How is that an answer? The data should be there? Unless you shoot data at the sattelite and then it just barrages hundereds of kilometers of the earth's surface with data, but how is that secure?

It's more secure than spraying your data all across the radio spectrum (in every direction), which every electronic device on earth now listens in on. At least you need a special piece of kit to listen in on satellite transmissions. Encryption helps, as well.

Wireless transmissions are like shouting in a crowded room, not discretely passing a note to someone. Anyone can listen in on them, as well. More people do this, because more people have the means to.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryu
post Jul 28 2008, 07:08 PM
Post #22


Awakened Asset
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,464
Joined: 9-April 05
From: AGS, North German League
Member No.: 7,309



QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 28 2008, 04:48 PM) *
Fake SINs are already too cheap as they stand. Players already burn through fake SINs at a terrible rate. Making it quick and easy for players to forge their own SINs (as opposed to stripping them, which you'll notice is fairly easy) was deemed a Bad Idea.

As far as the weeks interval goes, that might be another one for the errata, one of those artifacts you get when changing things between drafts. It is what it is right now, though.


Anything that does not cost less effort than 1kĀ„ per rating point does not change a thing. What does a character get out of learning to fake SINs? Any option should be occasionally worthwhile. The hacking jobs in the end have a higher market value than the whole SIN.

Maybe one could fix the price issue and the absysmal credibility of fake SINs at the same time? The real deal should be SIN history rather than SIN veracity anyway. The current fake SINs could keep a niche as short-term options - pay the price to reduce footprint.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cheops
post Jul 29 2008, 06:18 AM
Post #23


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,512
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 392



QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jul 28 2008, 02:29 PM) *
I wouldn't have a problem with it if it was effectively balanced, but it's not, its a minor hit to your response (I still get my 5 Initiative Passes, I just might not go first in matrix combat) and an immunity to traces. It's the new one hit wonder for hackers, riggers, and everyone else.


That statement kind of depends on how they errata the Optimization Program Option which is the other can of worms that I mentioned. It currently does not specify whether the System is based on System or modified System. If it is the former, as it seems right now, then you are correct. If it is the later as most people are assuming and house ruling then your argument is incorrect.

A starting hacker has Response 5 and System 5 or 6. This means that his modified System is 5 and can only run rating 5 programs. With a geo sat that suddenly becomes 3 and now he can only run Rating 3 programs. The difference between Stealth 5 and Stealth 3 can be staggering at times. The optimizaiton option fucks with this because now the geo sat can still run rating 6 programs just like the non sat commlink.

As I mentioned before this gets even crazier with TMs and Nexi.

@Ancient History: If that was the intention behind the forging rules wouldn't it have been better to up the availability and/or cost of fake SINs as opposed to making it inefficient to forge them? I haven't had the time to crunch the stats yet but a Min/Maxed Forger probably has a 50/50 shot of faking 1 rating point in a month. Admittedly it looks pretty shitty from a developer point of view to publish one availability, errata it to make it lower, and then errata back to a higher value again.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Jul 29 2008, 11:34 AM
Post #24


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



I avoid retconning whenever possible.

And I rarely have the power to retcon. I can't run to Synner and shake him by the throat and tell him to retroactively change the Fake SIN rules in SR4. He'll slap me like a silly woman in a 1930s film noir and tell me to wait for SR5.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryu
post Jul 29 2008, 12:26 PM
Post #25


Awakened Asset
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,464
Joined: 9-April 05
From: AGS, North German League
Member No.: 7,309



Laudable attitude, and maybe the right point to bring Implant Connectivity up... whatĀ“s in DNI I ask, each book seems to have itĀ“s own, not-quite-shared vision.

As for the SINs, avoiding a retcon was the key of my suggestion. Main book SINs are not worth more than a couple grands, another class of SINs with some mechanical advantages (and higher price/effort) would be a desireable option. Pay 10x as much, or spend weeks instead of days on coding, get the rating as auto hits. DIY with a prolonged effort over several months of real-time gaming will have the player fight to the bitter end for the SIN. Rating 1 would be a serious low-cost option, while rating 6 would likely stay alive until it is abandoned for its history alone.

IĀ“m a bit unclear on stripped SINs. The result is still burnt, yes? Or does stripping get rid of any criminal history of the SIN, regardless of investigating company?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 6th June 2023 - 01:12 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.