Beginning Shadowrunner Needs Advice..., Chargen Theory 101? Options

[Rad]

I've been playing various RPGs for many years, but I'm still new to shadowrun. One differance I've noticed about the characters in SR4 is that they seem to be created with little room left for advancement in their primary abilities.

Mages are an exception, with initiation allowing them to raise magic pretty much indefinitely, but most mundane builds I see--including the sample characters--are pretty close to the maximum in their primary stats and skills right out of chargen.

For example, the street samurai on page 101 of the BBB (kudos to whoever arranged that, by the way) has his Agility, Automatics, and Unarmed Combat all at one point shy of their natural maximums--and he's already got some 'ware boosting those dicepools as well.

There's still some room for improvment through better equiptment, but it seems to me karma isn't going to make this guy much better at shooting or beating things up than he already is. Maybe +4 dice total, which averages out to a little more than 1 additional hit on tests?

That's another question I have. It seems like even with a thouroughly maxed-out dicepool, the total number of hits you're likely to get are obscenely low. A starting character with a skill and attribute of 5 is going to roll 10 dice, averaging a little more than 3 hits. Even at the upper limit, an average of 5-6 hits seems about all you can hope for, without spending edge. Considering how many things in SR4 are opposed tests dependent on net hits for the result, I have a hard time seeing how you can accomplish much of anything unless your opponent either rolls poorly or is seriously outclassed.

Since I'm going to be starting my first game soon, I wanted to get some input from more experienced players about how character design and advancement works in SR4. Is it normal to be "the best of the best" right out of the can and improve through gear and diversification rather than continuing to boost your primary abilities? Or do characters just not live that long in shadowrun? The rules seem to make improving your character through karma a much slower process than other rpgs, and the combat system is incredibly lethal, so are shadowrun characters just not expected to live long enough to get more than one or two bumps to their attributes/skills?

More importaintly, if I try to play a character who isn't a horribly min/maxed specialist (by other RPG's standards) is he going to get his hoop kicked and/or be absolutely useless compared to everyone else in the game? At what point does a character's dicepool hit the "you shouldn't be trying to do this" range?

For a system that claims to have no character classes, it sure seems hard to de

[JudgementLoaf]

A lot of character advancement is based on things other than karma. Cash, street cred, and contacts are just a few things that you will need to acquire that are often more important than bumping your stats. Yes, you can start at the top. Or somewhere near it anyways. But shadowrun is very different in that your gear, the people you know and your personal reputation is alot more important than having a stat at 5 or 6. Yes, high stats help. But they aren't everything. And you can always learn new skills for a character as well.

As for the so called "useless" range, it depends a lot on the game your in. In smaller games, having a well rounded character than can throw 4 dice at a test can occasionally be handy. With a larger group, pools of around 8 realistically become the norm. But then again, in my opinion, one can never have too broad of a skill base. After all, if the specialist goes down......

Anyways, good luck with your first game.

[hyzmarca]

If you're starting character only has 10 dice in his firearm of choice then you aren't going it right. Make him an elf, specialize, and get a smartlink.

The basic form of character advancement via karma in SR is and always has been that the mundane becomes more well-rounded quickly and the magician slowly becomes much more specialized.
When it comes to advancing using nuyen to buy equipment and 'ware the opposite is true.

When you have a magician with cyberware you end up stagnating in one aspect or the other due to the relationship between essence loss and magic loss.

[Glyph]

Generally, how much you maximize your specialty depends on how many skills are involved in that specialty. A street samurai, for example, will generally need several combat skills to cover ranged and close combat. It is feasible to give him a rating: 6 skill with a specialization for the combat skill he is most focused on. A hacker, on the other hand, requires a lot more skills, so it makes more sense to take the electronics and cracking skill groups for the character.

The dice pools are not equal, but they are fairly balanced, in that combat, magical, and social dice pools, all opposed tests with a lot of potential negative modifiers, also have a lot of potential positive dice pool modifiers.

Take a typical sammie (although by typical, I mean very, very good at his job). Give him pistols: 6, specialize in semi-automatics, give him a base Agility of 5, then add muscle toner: 2, a reflex recorder for the pistols skill, and a smartlink modification to his cybereyes. Using a smartlinked pistol, he will be rolling 18 dice before negative modifiers.

Similarly, a mage could have Magic: 5, Spellcasting: 6 with a specialization in combat spells, a +2 bonus to combat spells from a mentor spirit, and a power focus: 2, to be rolling 17 dice for spells. Mages, though, generally have a choice of either getting all of the magical skills at a lower level, or getting the bare essentials at a higher level.

Social skill dice pools can be the most monstrously huge of all. Indeed, they can be unbalancing if the GM allows social skills to be too powerful ("You got 8 net hits, he really likes you," vs. "You got 8 net hits, he gives you the keys to his car and condo and then shoots himself.").

Other dice pools are smaller, but usually you don't face as many negative modifiers or need as many successes. My most recent character, Dancer, rolled about 18 dice for her dancing, and I realized that was way more dice than I really needed for it. It went beyond "She's a good dancer," and into "Damn, hope a corporation doesn't see her dance demo and decide to extract her."


As far as improvement, though, characters can improve laterally, getting a more well-rounded set of skills, or raise similar skills up to 6 (you start with a 6 in pistols, and work to get a 6 in automatics too). Even in their primary area, they can improve with 'ware. A sammie could upgrade to muscle toner: 4 for an Agility of 9, or get wired reflexes: 3 for an additional initiative pass, for example. Awakened characters, of course, can initiate, which gives them new abilities and also lets them raise their Magic.

[Ryu]

That's another question I have. It seems like even with a thouroughly maxed-out dicepool, the total number of hits you're likely to get are obscenely low. A starting character with a skill and attribute of 5 is going to roll 10 dice, averaging a little more than 3 hits. Even at the upper limit, an average of 5-6 hits seems about all you can hope for, without spending edge. Considering how many things in SR4 are opposed tests dependent on net hits for the result, I have a hard time seeing how you can accomplish much of anything unless your opponent either rolls poorly or is seriously outclassed.

Since I'm going to be starting my first game soon, I wanted to get some input from more experienced players about how character design and advancement works in SR4. Is it normal to be "the best of the best" right out of the can and improve through gear and diversification rather than continuing to boost your primary abilities? Or do characters just not live that long in shadowrun? The rules seem to make improving your character through karma a much slower process than other rpgs, and the combat system is incredibly lethal, so are shadowrun characters just not expected to live long enough to get more than one or two bumps to their attributes/skills?

More importaintly, if I try to play a character who isn't a horribly min/maxed specialist (by other RPG's standards) is he going to get his hoop kicked and/or be absolutely useless compared to everyone else in the game? At what point does a character's dicepool hit the "you shouldn't be trying to do this" range?

The first question is really on the utility of maxxing a skill out. The opposite side of your argument is that SR4 has a wide range of usable skill ratings. The idea is to make use of situational modifiers to get an advantage over equally skilled opponents. An advantage of +4 dice says "I don´t care if they are in cover".

"Best of the best" out of the gates... not really, because the number of useful skills is larger than your BPs will go. I usually spend more BPs on skill groups than many archtypes do on skills altogether. Electronics / Influence / Athletics is now for everyone who can justify it. Samurai need Firearms and Martial Arts, hackers Cracking, mages and technomancers get it worse. "Best of the best" is more like "better than anyone unaugmented and untrained".

What is sufficient power depends on the campaign. There needs to be an understanding about the expected level of opposition, as well as acceptable levels of runner power. A TM with a light pistol should not step in front of guards who can hold a position against a bunch of combat fanatics. A true samurai on the other hand will usually be bored to death fighting gangers.

[noonesshowmonkey]

SR4 is extremely different from most classic RPGs. Charactergen in SR4 can be tuned in ways that most other games do not even come near. Check around on the board for some of the tweaked character builds - they are out there, they are mean, they are absurd and they all throw 18+ dice at a single test from the get go.

The issue of vertical advancement is a definite one for a mundane character. Outside of pumping one or two stats with tons of karma (which are likely already near the racial maxes, as you said) or pulling out some 'ware for something nicer, there is little left to do. That said, the SOTA aspect of Cyber Punk is clutch and tearing out standard 'ware for Beta or Delta or experimental gadgets is part of the setting. Essence is far more limiting for a mundane character in general, though; you are correct. While you can start a game with a very hefty dice pool it can be a pretty serious challenge to increase said pool later. This is good and bad in that the ever steepening advancement curve makes retard-powerful characters not cost-effective (sometimes) it can also lead to a sense of stagnation.

One of the key factors in SR, as one of the other users noted, is that there are way more useful skills than can be purchased at character generation. SR is a game about what and who you know far more so than what you can do in the most sanguine sense of the word. One of the best investments for karma is in contacts. Knowing the right people can get you the edge on a run that makes it go from a mess where some friends are left bleeding and dying in an alley way to a smooth operation with a fat payoff. Knowing the right people can keep you from getting clipped when a deal turns sour. Having the right skills can be paramount. The fewer people involved the less rats you can have. The more immediate that the skill use is (ie you can do it right now instead of having to ask/pay/wait for someone else to do it) the better a skill is in a big way. Really big.

As to character design the thing I always tell my players is to make sure that your character is vital to at least two of the three major scenes: Legwork, Combat, Social. If your character is just a combat monster and my run is mostly legwork and social challenges you will get bored and I won't feel sorry for you. Overspecced characters suffer just as much as overly diverse ones do. Generally speaking it is not hard at character creation to choose one fact of the game to toss 14 or so dice at and then another one or two important skills to still be able to have 10 dice for. I find that such a build philosophy produces characters that are spending more time in scenes doing stuff and less time waiting for their chance to pick up two fist full of dice (or for a few dice more).

Lastly, as you insinuated in your question, players in SR4 have a nasty habit of getting dead in a real hurry. Very little increases a character's overall durability compared to say, DnD, and nothing changes the fact that a machine gun will smear anybody stupid enough to be in front of it (unless you are a troll, maybe). There are no level limits on damage rates - only availability. Any street urchin can point an AK-97 at you and hold the trigger down till it goes *click* and have a decent shot at leaving you in a rapidly expanding pool of your own blood.

Thinking about SR is really very different from 'traditional' (read: D&D) RPGs. They are far less linear, time moves in very different ways, they are at once faster and slower. They often emphasize a totally different method of problem solving than a traditional dungeon hack. Information in the 6th world is worth far more than gold.

[Gelare]

I'll avoid repeating what the other posters have said, but as for your concern about opposed tests and net hits, most of those are weighted pretty heavily, usually in favor of the attacker. Shooting someone is Agility+Skill, but dodging that shot is only Reaction. Similarly, mages cast ridiculous high-Force spells with Magic+Spellcasting, but enemies usually only get to defend with Body or Willpower, and even if they're so very, very lucky as to have a counterspelling mage backing them up, they're still likely to have a smaller dice pool.

Also, depending on how nice your GM is and how gritty your group wants the world to feel, combat can be very, very deadly. A single edged or called shot can easily take down anything short of a troll in one hit, and when people start overcasting Stunballs and you only get to defend with Willpower, it's a whole world of hurt. Characters in the games I play/GM tend to survive, largely because we all happen to agree that having our characters, who we invested a lot of time and energy into creating, die all the time sucks, but usually at least one person a session has to burn a point of edge (permanently) to avoid heading toward the light. Talk it over with your GM and group - whatever works for you folks.

[Dashifen]

If you're starting character only has 10 dice in his firearm of choice then you aren't going it right. Make him an elf, specialize, and get a smartlink.

This depends primarily on the game you're in. Check with the other players and if the GM and the other players are expecting specialists with 15+ dice pools for their focused set of skills, then you might need to go back to the drawing board. However, there are other tables where 10 in a dice pool is very respectable. It all depends on the game that you're playing.

[DireRadiant]

The BP system allows you a lot of choice in how you build and the level of dice pools you select. If you choose to max the pool for a skill at chargen, then you have limited yourself in increasing it. That's a choice you've made in building that character. Building a character is only one step in the complex process of balancing within the team, and balancing with the opponents, and balancing with the style of the game.

There will be tradeoffs, between your concept of a character, the mechanics you choose, balance of mechanics with other players, balance in personalities, and matches with the genre, style ,runs and opponents the GM provides.

It's a match between all of these factors, and if you make a choice in character building that doesn't fit, then there is likely to be some dissonance.

[psychophipps]

Wow. Just...Wow.

I say that you should just make the character that you want. Strangely enough, the archetypes in the base book are a fairly decent basis to get the feel for a character. Don't worry too much about being the "best of the best" and tossing a ga-zillion dice as your character will probably be a noob on the scene anyway. A beginner sammie tossing 10 dice with guns and/or melee combat is quite respectable in any reasonable arena and will save yourself some points that can go towards character development and a bit of the ol' enhanced handiness (in the sammie example) in situations that don't require things screaming and bleeding. Intimidate and/or Negotiation and a gun will get you about 10 times farther in the world of the shadows than just a gun, after all.

The idea that each and every sammie/mage/hacker PC in the SR world has to toss 15+ dice in their specialty to even be effective is ridiculous. My ganger/sammie tosses 15 dice if he has full reach with his combat axe and takes care o' biz just skippy, thanks. That said, he's also recognized as being pretty much an elite melee combatant with this weapon and it's usually good for a few extra Intimidation dice if his enemy recognizes him from his rather fearsome rep.

[masterofm]

The problem that you can have in some games (depending on how it is run) is that if you are a hacker and you are not throwing 15+ dice then mr rating 6 response 6 agent walks all over you. Talking to your GM is key though. If you are going to be going up against gangers and people with r1-4 comlinks throwing 16 dice is kind of nuts. However the problem with Shadow run in my eyes is that it is very very very hard to advance a characters primary skill w/o having to spend gobs and gobs of karma. You will then be able to get a single extra die at whatever you are doing. In this way if you are not hard cheesing a few rolls you won't have to play your character for a year to be able to possibly hard cheese them. It is easy to flesh out a character later with the way karma works, but being awesome in something is hard work if you don't invest the BP first. You have a skill of four and a stat of five, which in the end means you need 15-18 karma to raise your dice by one point in the invested skill. Now if you are playing a long term game or adventure then it is not the end of the world, but your dice pools will very slowly improve. It means in the end raising something two dice requires around 36-39 karma and that is just painful if your GM gives out 2-3 karma per 6 hour session.

It is always about the GM when you make a character. Always. His/Her game should determine what you should take time investing in and what character you should sculpt (or else you might have taken time making a character that the GM will not approve of.)

[Shiloh]

...the problem with Shadow run in my eyes is ...It is easy to flesh out a character later with the way karma works, but being awesome in something is hard work if you don't invest the BP first. ...

This is an artefact of any game where the chargen uses different ramping to the experience/progression mechanism. Up to the softcap, costs are linear, and then the hardcap is a big jump, whereas the progression mechanism is a pyramid number. Sometimes this is a definite design choice, other times it's an unintended consequence.

Previous points about "it depends" are very valid. Ref and team size are both factors to consider, along with expected opposition and game paradigm/theme.

[De Badd Ass]

The big difference between Shadowrun and, for example, DnD is that Shadowrun characters start out as experienced runners whereas DnD characters start out as beginners.

Shadowrun is more lethal, characters aren't expected to last as long, campaigns are shorter.

DnD is a level based system: the character, the weapons, the magic, the monsters, the challenges, and the rewards are all designed to match. The experience system is designed to let beginning characters quickly catch up to experienced characters.

Not so (much) in Shadowrun.

Of course, not every player sees it that way. Just like many DnD players don't like playing characters with stats below 8 (would you believe 12?), not all Shadowrun players like to play flawed characters. Essentially, though, that's what Shadowrun is - a world of flawed characters.

DnD characters are supposed to be Heros. Shadowrun characters are supposed to be misfits.

[/rant]

To repeat, Shadowrun characters don't advance as fast as characters in other systems because they do not start out as beginners.

For example, you can start out with the equivalent of a top level archer, by creating a character with a 6 skill in projectile weapons and a 6 in agility. You can create an elven archer with a 7 in agility. You can take exceptional attribute and give him an 8 in agility. Give him a 6 in edge while you are at it. AT CHARACTER CREATION. You now have the world's best natural archer; don't expect to advance much.

Course you could make this same character an adept, and make him a super-archer; but it doesn't matter. This starting Shadowrun character will mop the floor with the best starting archer you can create in DnD.

Oh yeah, don't forget cyberware, bioware, foci, etc. Your ability to equip a starting Shadowrunner FAR exceeds your ability to equip a starting DnD character.

[/rant2] #Yes, it's all rant (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Don't think of your character as a beginning shadowrunner - even if you are a beginning player - and all your confusion will go away. Think of a starting shadowrunner as a 10th level DnD PC, and you will be closer to the truth.

---------------------------------

I didn't even deal with the second half of your question - which has to do with role playing vs. roll playing. FASA designed their games to go either way - even going as far as creating seperate BATTLETECH and MECHWARRIOR games. Single player computer games are even more roll oriented.

If your group's idea of having fun is WINNING every encounter, then roll playing and optimized characters is the way to go. It's also the way for the GM to go, otherwise the game will be boring.

'nuff said.

[Murrdox]

I think newbie Shadowrunners are defined more by who they know, what they know, and how well they get along in the Shadows more than anything else.

The "Best Archer in the World" can be taken down very very easily by failing a couple Charisma rolls in negotiations with a Mr. Johnson. Then said Archer quickly realizes no amount of Nuyen she was promised on the deal is going to save her from the 10 combat drones swarming in on her team - which has been hired as a distraction to allow the REAL sabotage team to break into the facility and bomb the place.

[ElFenrir]

I and a few of my buddies were discussing the whole ''how do you differ a new runner from a pro?''

Attributes, skills, and even gear isn't enough. But what folks are saying...street cred, reputation, contacts, and networks...that's what makes you. Back in the day, you could sort of look at Karma Pool; a more experienced runner tended ot have more here. Now there is Edge...which a new runner could indeed have in spades.

You could see Merc A, loaded with ware and excellent gear, skills and attributes; he picked them up during his time training in wherever. But he's never been in the shadows in his life.

Merc B might have a few pieces of older but still decent ware, less Attributes, still good Skills but a broader range perhaps-but he's also got a vast network of contacts, a good, solid reputation and the like. He's got about 8 years of experience in the shadows. Now, he doesn't suck at what he does at all-but he still rolls a few less dice on the combat end as merc A. But Merc B, generally, is going to be much more successful due to those things.

[Ed_209a]

You don't have to be a face, but being able to toss 5 dice in a influence test will save your tail eventually.

You don't have to be a ninja, but being able to toss 5 dice in a infiltration test will save your tail regularly.

An extra 2/2 contact is often more useful than 20K in gear flat out of chargen.

Don't worry about maxxing out your dice in your focus right off the bat. Usually, it will only mean 1, maybe 2 successes.

Edge is your friend

That last point in a stat (the 25BP one) is rarely worth it.

[shuya]

i think a big part of the "uber-specialization" aspect of some characters (and i apologize if somebody said this already but this thread was tl;dr) is metagaming during character creation: that is to say, a group of players will often times create characters who don't need to be well-rounded because they know that another player is making a character who can fill in the gaps for the abilities that they lack. i know that when i first started playing shadowrun, all of my characters were good at whatever it was they did, AND could throw a lot of dice into shooting somebody if the drek hit the fan, but that was about it.

i am not saying this is a bad thing: you can't get to be the best at what you do (which is ultimately the goal of anybody who is part of a limited hiring pool) without specializing. another big part of it is that, if you are ANYTHING but a newbie shadowrunner, you would be dead if you weren't already good. but, you'll also be dead if you don't diversify, unless you've got a rather forgiving GM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Carriage]

Would starting with 300BP but giving more karma give a more beginner runner feel?

[Backgammon]

Do not conserve ammo and always cut deals with dragons.

[ElFenrir]

Well, from my experience, 300 BPs are about lower-level gangers, nearly fighting to eat.

320 BP...it's only 20 BP difference, can make some very good noob runners. There's a thread here that's got a bunch of examples; they are indeed more right out of the gate. It's strange what the 20 BPs can do, but it's something(it's more contacts, more money, more attributes, and a full 5 more skill points.)

If I run lower level, I tend to go 320-350 BPs, allow full 200 BP in Attributes as if it were 400-sort of ''good raw potential'', but give less nuyen for the BP.

These days we are running 400 BP with Frank Trollman's house rules, since we prefer a bit more of a ''pro'' game, and the skill costs for that are excellent for the pro's that would have a wide array of skills. We don't necessarily play ubers, but just a little more slick, pro, been around the block once or twice guys as opposed to 500 BP superstars or out-of-the-gate runners.

[De Badd Ass]

I think newbie Shadowrunners are defined more by who they know, what they know, and how well they get along in the Shadows more than anything else.

The "Best Archer in the World" can be taken down very very easily by failing a couple Charisma rolls in negotiations with a Mr. Johnson. Then said Archer quickly realizes no amount of Nuyen she was promised on the deal is going to save her from the 10 combat drones swarming in on her team - which has been hired as a distraction to allow the REAL sabotage team to break into the facility and bomb the place.

Very True. I wasn't trying to imply that creating the best archer equals creating the best shadowrunner. Just the opposite.

I was just comparing the abilities of a generated shadowrunner to those of a generated DnD hero.

OTOH: A GM or DM can take down any character at any time - if that is their intention. The PC doesn't even have to fail.

[Cadmus]

Yes, its amazing how many run away city buses there are these days (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) and ofcourse the random Rock,plane,train,cow,bowl of flowers,small sperm whale,that fall out of the sky. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)

[Carriage]

If I run lower level, I tend to go 320-350 BPs, allow full 200 BP in Attributes as if it were 400-sort of ''good raw potential'', but give less nuyen for the BP.

What would be the problem with only allowing 160-175BP for attributes? Also, why do you give less nuyen per BP? What tends to happen if you don't

[Aiolos Turin]

My group had a great idea for our first time as shadowrunners.

Start as 13 year old street kids with 2 of our stats and 0 skills, 0 equipment, 0 contacts, and start from there- advancing very quickly.

Although I wouldnt recommend the same thing with anyone else (2 of a stat and 0 skills is a little too underdeveloped for a fun game) but to start very "young" or weak, perhaps a 200BP character instead of a 400BP one. Where heavy weapons and expensive vehicles are non-existent and mediocre weapons are a big deal.

In our campaign, we quickly decided to give ourselves some skills. After having 1 or 2 skills of each type (Surviving, Combat, and Social) at rating 1, and having most stats at 2, but two or three at 3, it really began to become fun. Although it feels like a completely different game having such low dicepools, such incompetant PC's and NPC's, and the fact we havent ran into a single gun yet (pistols are a HUGE deal!) and are still 13 years old, we've still had a lot of fun. Finding our first knife, thinking our two 13 year old characters could mug a troll that was already stabbed several times and bleeding (and realizing that it was a bad idea when we barely knocked him unconscious), and understanding basic combat tactics (Never fight 2v4 unless you have an ace up your sleeve, because you WILL lose lol)

Instead of doing Karma, we're doing "After each adventure, you gain 1 rating of [this skill you used] and one stat (we adjust it absed on how much more fun it would be to no longer suck so much, lol)



We quickly learned that Social skills are vital in Shadowrun- just as important as combat.
We quickly learned how powerful a troll is- how being outnumbered means "RUN!"- how combat works (dice modifiers FTW!)

But most f all... Player Creativity, Player Thought, and PC intelligence. That although face-to-face we couldnt beat 2 vs 4 (everyone was about equal power) when we came back for revenge on those street punks- and set up an ambush- the 2 vs 4 was more like 2 vs OVER- even with my nephew completely missing horribly 3 times in a row.

The decision to save edge until you REALLY need it (like to kill the vampire who is about to kill your best friend) and the Player knowledge to bring a wooden stake instead of his knife (otherwise the vampire, even at -3 modifier, would have mopped the floor with our teenagers)



These low dice pools, "13 year old versions of our characters" and the lack of armor, guns (until a few more missions) and the incredibly quick advancement void of karma (but logical in why we advance, mixing both realistic experience and the fun-factor) let us learn about the game as first timers. And in the end of the campaign? A very nice epic ending to a great story- a fully lush and full background history of our characters from ages 13-18, and deeper roleplaying into WHY our characters are the way they are. And after the campagin is over, "Time Passes" and our characters are the 400 BP versions we first created, because we balanced the "young" version of ourselves to slowly but surely integrate into the normal versions-but full with stories of their lives, enhancing roleplaying and depth of character significantly.

Can't wait for my next game!

[ElFenrir]

What would be the problem with only allowing 160-175BP for attributes? Also, why do you give less nuyen per BP? What tends to happen if you don't

No problem, but the way we tend to look at a lower-level campaign; say...gangers. A ganger could very well have excellent, natural raw potential...but little in the way of training(some skills lower, with harsher skill caps-like 1 5 the rest 3 or lower, or 2 4's and the rest 3 or lower), and giving less nuyen-again, limiting the higher-end gear. You could even limit contacts...maybe by points, but by type...perhaps a low-end, completely wet behind the ears person just doesn't know that high-end, connection 6 fixer.

So we just think of it that way. Raw attributes are the building block. They might well have them...but little in the way of the ware, gear, lower skills...and of course, networks and street cred built up.

Less nuyen for BP in a lower level game, again, just sorta shows that maybe you don't have as much dough as a higher-end. However, if someone came up to me if I was running a 320 point campaign for a spoiled rich kid with good attributes and lots of money...but no ware, barely any contacts and lower Skills...I'd probably let it go. (I'm a big fan of working with the players to make sure everyone has a concept they will have fun with.) You don't have to give less nuyen per BP...you could limit the amount of BP someone can put into Resources(say, max 20-30 points instead.)