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Rad
I've been playing various RPGs for many years, but I'm still new to shadowrun. One differance I've noticed about the characters in SR4 is that they seem to be created with little room left for advancement in their primary abilities.

Mages are an exception, with initiation allowing them to raise magic pretty much indefinitely, but most mundane builds I see--including the sample characters--are pretty close to the maximum in their primary stats and skills right out of chargen.

For example, the street samurai on page 101 of the BBB (kudos to whoever arranged that, by the way) has his Agility, Automatics, and Unarmed Combat all at one point shy of their natural maximums--and he's already got some 'ware boosting those dicepools as well.

There's still some room for improvment through better equiptment, but it seems to me karma isn't going to make this guy much better at shooting or beating things up than he already is. Maybe +4 dice total, which averages out to a little more than 1 additional hit on tests?

That's another question I have. It seems like even with a thouroughly maxed-out dicepool, the total number of hits you're likely to get are obscenely low. A starting character with a skill and attribute of 5 is going to roll 10 dice, averaging a little more than 3 hits. Even at the upper limit, an average of 5-6 hits seems about all you can hope for, without spending edge. Considering how many things in SR4 are opposed tests dependent on net hits for the result, I have a hard time seeing how you can accomplish much of anything unless your opponent either rolls poorly or is seriously outclassed.

Since I'm going to be starting my first game soon, I wanted to get some input from more experienced players about how character design and advancement works in SR4. Is it normal to be "the best of the best" right out of the can and improve through gear and diversification rather than continuing to boost your primary abilities? Or do characters just not live that long in shadowrun? The rules seem to make improving your character through karma a much slower process than other rpgs, and the combat system is incredibly lethal, so are shadowrun characters just not expected to live long enough to get more than one or two bumps to their attributes/skills?

More importaintly, if I try to play a character who isn't a horribly min/maxed specialist (by other RPG's standards) is he going to get his hoop kicked and/or be absolutely useless compared to everyone else in the game? At what point does a character's dicepool hit the "you shouldn't be trying to do this" range?

For a system that claims to have no character classes, it sure seems hard to de
JudgementLoaf
A lot of character advancement is based on things other than karma. Cash, street cred, and contacts are just a few things that you will need to acquire that are often more important than bumping your stats. Yes, you can start at the top. Or somewhere near it anyways. But shadowrun is very different in that your gear, the people you know and your personal reputation is alot more important than having a stat at 5 or 6. Yes, high stats help. But they aren't everything. And you can always learn new skills for a character as well.

As for the so called "useless" range, it depends a lot on the game your in. In smaller games, having a well rounded character than can throw 4 dice at a test can occasionally be handy. With a larger group, pools of around 8 realistically become the norm. But then again, in my opinion, one can never have too broad of a skill base. After all, if the specialist goes down......

Anyways, good luck with your first game.
hyzmarca
If you're starting character only has 10 dice in his firearm of choice then you aren't going it right. Make him an elf, specialize, and get a smartlink.

The basic form of character advancement via karma in SR is and always has been that the mundane becomes more well-rounded quickly and the magician slowly becomes much more specialized.
When it comes to advancing using nuyen to buy equipment and 'ware the opposite is true.

When you have a magician with cyberware you end up stagnating in one aspect or the other due to the relationship between essence loss and magic loss.
Glyph
Generally, how much you maximize your specialty depends on how many skills are involved in that specialty. A street samurai, for example, will generally need several combat skills to cover ranged and close combat. It is feasible to give him a rating: 6 skill with a specialization for the combat skill he is most focused on. A hacker, on the other hand, requires a lot more skills, so it makes more sense to take the electronics and cracking skill groups for the character.

The dice pools are not equal, but they are fairly balanced, in that combat, magical, and social dice pools, all opposed tests with a lot of potential negative modifiers, also have a lot of potential positive dice pool modifiers.

Take a typical sammie (although by typical, I mean very, very good at his job). Give him pistols: 6, specialize in semi-automatics, give him a base Agility of 5, then add muscle toner: 2, a reflex recorder for the pistols skill, and a smartlink modification to his cybereyes. Using a smartlinked pistol, he will be rolling 18 dice before negative modifiers.

Similarly, a mage could have Magic: 5, Spellcasting: 6 with a specialization in combat spells, a +2 bonus to combat spells from a mentor spirit, and a power focus: 2, to be rolling 17 dice for spells. Mages, though, generally have a choice of either getting all of the magical skills at a lower level, or getting the bare essentials at a higher level.

Social skill dice pools can be the most monstrously huge of all. Indeed, they can be unbalancing if the GM allows social skills to be too powerful ("You got 8 net hits, he really likes you," vs. "You got 8 net hits, he gives you the keys to his car and condo and then shoots himself.").

Other dice pools are smaller, but usually you don't face as many negative modifiers or need as many successes. My most recent character, Dancer, rolled about 18 dice for her dancing, and I realized that was way more dice than I really needed for it. It went beyond "She's a good dancer," and into "Damn, hope a corporation doesn't see her dance demo and decide to extract her."


As far as improvement, though, characters can improve laterally, getting a more well-rounded set of skills, or raise similar skills up to 6 (you start with a 6 in pistols, and work to get a 6 in automatics too). Even in their primary area, they can improve with 'ware. A sammie could upgrade to muscle toner: 4 for an Agility of 9, or get wired reflexes: 3 for an additional initiative pass, for example. Awakened characters, of course, can initiate, which gives them new abilities and also lets them raise their Magic.
Ryu
QUOTE (Rad @ Jul 28 2008, 08:55 AM) *
That's another question I have. It seems like even with a thouroughly maxed-out dicepool, the total number of hits you're likely to get are obscenely low. A starting character with a skill and attribute of 5 is going to roll 10 dice, averaging a little more than 3 hits. Even at the upper limit, an average of 5-6 hits seems about all you can hope for, without spending edge. Considering how many things in SR4 are opposed tests dependent on net hits for the result, I have a hard time seeing how you can accomplish much of anything unless your opponent either rolls poorly or is seriously outclassed.

Since I'm going to be starting my first game soon, I wanted to get some input from more experienced players about how character design and advancement works in SR4. Is it normal to be "the best of the best" right out of the can and improve through gear and diversification rather than continuing to boost your primary abilities? Or do characters just not live that long in shadowrun? The rules seem to make improving your character through karma a much slower process than other rpgs, and the combat system is incredibly lethal, so are shadowrun characters just not expected to live long enough to get more than one or two bumps to their attributes/skills?

More importaintly, if I try to play a character who isn't a horribly min/maxed specialist (by other RPG's standards) is he going to get his hoop kicked and/or be absolutely useless compared to everyone else in the game? At what point does a character's dicepool hit the "you shouldn't be trying to do this" range?


The first question is really on the utility of maxxing a skill out. The opposite side of your argument is that SR4 has a wide range of usable skill ratings. The idea is to make use of situational modifiers to get an advantage over equally skilled opponents. An advantage of +4 dice says "I don´t care if they are in cover".

"Best of the best" out of the gates... not really, because the number of useful skills is larger than your BPs will go. I usually spend more BPs on skill groups than many archtypes do on skills altogether. Electronics / Influence / Athletics is now for everyone who can justify it. Samurai need Firearms and Martial Arts, hackers Cracking, mages and technomancers get it worse. "Best of the best" is more like "better than anyone unaugmented and untrained".

What is sufficient power depends on the campaign. There needs to be an understanding about the expected level of opposition, as well as acceptable levels of runner power. A TM with a light pistol should not step in front of guards who can hold a position against a bunch of combat fanatics. A true samurai on the other hand will usually be bored to death fighting gangers.
noonesshowmonkey
SR4 is extremely different from most classic RPGs. Charactergen in SR4 can be tuned in ways that most other games do not even come near. Check around on the board for some of the tweaked character builds - they are out there, they are mean, they are absurd and they all throw 18+ dice at a single test from the get go.

The issue of vertical advancement is a definite one for a mundane character. Outside of pumping one or two stats with tons of karma (which are likely already near the racial maxes, as you said) or pulling out some 'ware for something nicer, there is little left to do. That said, the SOTA aspect of Cyber Punk is clutch and tearing out standard 'ware for Beta or Delta or experimental gadgets is part of the setting. Essence is far more limiting for a mundane character in general, though; you are correct. While you can start a game with a very hefty dice pool it can be a pretty serious challenge to increase said pool later. This is good and bad in that the ever steepening advancement curve makes retard-powerful characters not cost-effective (sometimes) it can also lead to a sense of stagnation.

One of the key factors in SR, as one of the other users noted, is that there are way more useful skills than can be purchased at character generation. SR is a game about what and who you know far more so than what you can do in the most sanguine sense of the word. One of the best investments for karma is in contacts. Knowing the right people can get you the edge on a run that makes it go from a mess where some friends are left bleeding and dying in an alley way to a smooth operation with a fat payoff. Knowing the right people can keep you from getting clipped when a deal turns sour. Having the right skills can be paramount. The fewer people involved the less rats you can have. The more immediate that the skill use is (ie you can do it right now instead of having to ask/pay/wait for someone else to do it) the better a skill is in a big way. Really big.

As to character design the thing I always tell my players is to make sure that your character is vital to at least two of the three major scenes: Legwork, Combat, Social. If your character is just a combat monster and my run is mostly legwork and social challenges you will get bored and I won't feel sorry for you. Overspecced characters suffer just as much as overly diverse ones do. Generally speaking it is not hard at character creation to choose one fact of the game to toss 14 or so dice at and then another one or two important skills to still be able to have 10 dice for. I find that such a build philosophy produces characters that are spending more time in scenes doing stuff and less time waiting for their chance to pick up two fist full of dice (or for a few dice more).

Lastly, as you insinuated in your question, players in SR4 have a nasty habit of getting dead in a real hurry. Very little increases a character's overall durability compared to say, DnD, and nothing changes the fact that a machine gun will smear anybody stupid enough to be in front of it (unless you are a troll, maybe). There are no level limits on damage rates - only availability. Any street urchin can point an AK-97 at you and hold the trigger down till it goes *click* and have a decent shot at leaving you in a rapidly expanding pool of your own blood.

Thinking about SR is really very different from 'traditional' (read: D&D) RPGs. They are far less linear, time moves in very different ways, they are at once faster and slower. They often emphasize a totally different method of problem solving than a traditional dungeon hack. Information in the 6th world is worth far more than gold.

Gelare
I'll avoid repeating what the other posters have said, but as for your concern about opposed tests and net hits, most of those are weighted pretty heavily, usually in favor of the attacker. Shooting someone is Agility+Skill, but dodging that shot is only Reaction. Similarly, mages cast ridiculous high-Force spells with Magic+Spellcasting, but enemies usually only get to defend with Body or Willpower, and even if they're so very, very lucky as to have a counterspelling mage backing them up, they're still likely to have a smaller dice pool.

Also, depending on how nice your GM is and how gritty your group wants the world to feel, combat can be very, very deadly. A single edged or called shot can easily take down anything short of a troll in one hit, and when people start overcasting Stunballs and you only get to defend with Willpower, it's a whole world of hurt. Characters in the games I play/GM tend to survive, largely because we all happen to agree that having our characters, who we invested a lot of time and energy into creating, die all the time sucks, but usually at least one person a session has to burn a point of edge (permanently) to avoid heading toward the light. Talk it over with your GM and group - whatever works for you folks.
Dashifen
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 28 2008, 02:42 AM) *
If you're starting character only has 10 dice in his firearm of choice then you aren't going it right. Make him an elf, specialize, and get a smartlink.


This depends primarily on the game you're in. Check with the other players and if the GM and the other players are expecting specialists with 15+ dice pools for their focused set of skills, then you might need to go back to the drawing board. However, there are other tables where 10 in a dice pool is very respectable. It all depends on the game that you're playing.
DireRadiant
The BP system allows you a lot of choice in how you build and the level of dice pools you select. If you choose to max the pool for a skill at chargen, then you have limited yourself in increasing it. That's a choice you've made in building that character. Building a character is only one step in the complex process of balancing within the team, and balancing with the opponents, and balancing with the style of the game.

There will be tradeoffs, between your concept of a character, the mechanics you choose, balance of mechanics with other players, balance in personalities, and matches with the genre, style ,runs and opponents the GM provides.

It's a match between all of these factors, and if you make a choice in character building that doesn't fit, then there is likely to be some dissonance.
psychophipps
Wow. Just...Wow.

I say that you should just make the character that you want. Strangely enough, the archetypes in the base book are a fairly decent basis to get the feel for a character. Don't worry too much about being the "best of the best" and tossing a ga-zillion dice as your character will probably be a noob on the scene anyway. A beginner sammie tossing 10 dice with guns and/or melee combat is quite respectable in any reasonable arena and will save yourself some points that can go towards character development and a bit of the ol' enhanced handiness (in the sammie example) in situations that don't require things screaming and bleeding. Intimidate and/or Negotiation and a gun will get you about 10 times farther in the world of the shadows than just a gun, after all.

The idea that each and every sammie/mage/hacker PC in the SR world has to toss 15+ dice in their specialty to even be effective is ridiculous. My ganger/sammie tosses 15 dice if he has full reach with his combat axe and takes care o' biz just skippy, thanks. That said, he's also recognized as being pretty much an elite melee combatant with this weapon and it's usually good for a few extra Intimidation dice if his enemy recognizes him from his rather fearsome rep.
masterofm
The problem that you can have in some games (depending on how it is run) is that if you are a hacker and you are not throwing 15+ dice then mr rating 6 response 6 agent walks all over you. Talking to your GM is key though. If you are going to be going up against gangers and people with r1-4 comlinks throwing 16 dice is kind of nuts. However the problem with Shadow run in my eyes is that it is very very very hard to advance a characters primary skill w/o having to spend gobs and gobs of karma. You will then be able to get a single extra die at whatever you are doing. In this way if you are not hard cheesing a few rolls you won't have to play your character for a year to be able to possibly hard cheese them. It is easy to flesh out a character later with the way karma works, but being awesome in something is hard work if you don't invest the BP first. You have a skill of four and a stat of five, which in the end means you need 15-18 karma to raise your dice by one point in the invested skill. Now if you are playing a long term game or adventure then it is not the end of the world, but your dice pools will very slowly improve. It means in the end raising something two dice requires around 36-39 karma and that is just painful if your GM gives out 2-3 karma per 6 hour session.

It is always about the GM when you make a character. Always. His/Her game should determine what you should take time investing in and what character you should sculpt (or else you might have taken time making a character that the GM will not approve of.)
Shiloh
QUOTE (masterofm @ Jul 28 2008, 04:43 PM) *
...the problem with Shadow run in my eyes is ...It is easy to flesh out a character later with the way karma works, but being awesome in something is hard work if you don't invest the BP first. ...


This is an artefact of any game where the chargen uses different ramping to the experience/progression mechanism. Up to the softcap, costs are linear, and then the hardcap is a big jump, whereas the progression mechanism is a pyramid number. Sometimes this is a definite design choice, other times it's an unintended consequence.

Previous points about "it depends" are very valid. Ref and team size are both factors to consider, along with expected opposition and game paradigm/theme.
De Badd Ass
The big difference between Shadowrun and, for example, DnD is that Shadowrun characters start out as experienced runners whereas DnD characters start out as beginners.

Shadowrun is more lethal, characters aren't expected to last as long, campaigns are shorter.

DnD is a level based system: the character, the weapons, the magic, the monsters, the challenges, and the rewards are all designed to match. The experience system is designed to let beginning characters quickly catch up to experienced characters.

Not so (much) in Shadowrun.

Of course, not every player sees it that way. Just like many DnD players don't like playing characters with stats below 8 (would you believe 12?), not all Shadowrun players like to play flawed characters. Essentially, though, that's what Shadowrun is - a world of flawed characters.

DnD characters are supposed to be Heros. Shadowrun characters are supposed to be misfits.

[/rant]

To repeat, Shadowrun characters don't advance as fast as characters in other systems because they do not start out as beginners.

For example, you can start out with the equivalent of a top level archer, by creating a character with a 6 skill in projectile weapons and a 6 in agility. You can create an elven archer with a 7 in agility. You can take exceptional attribute and give him an 8 in agility. Give him a 6 in edge while you are at it. AT CHARACTER CREATION. You now have the world's best natural archer; don't expect to advance much.

Course you could make this same character an adept, and make him a super-archer; but it doesn't matter. This starting Shadowrun character will mop the floor with the best starting archer you can create in DnD.

Oh yeah, don't forget cyberware, bioware, foci, etc. Your ability to equip a starting Shadowrunner FAR exceeds your ability to equip a starting DnD character.

[/rant2] #Yes, it's all rant smile.gif

Don't think of your character as a beginning shadowrunner - even if you are a beginning player - and all your confusion will go away. Think of a starting shadowrunner as a 10th level DnD PC, and you will be closer to the truth.

---------------------------------

I didn't even deal with the second half of your question - which has to do with role playing vs. roll playing. FASA designed their games to go either way - even going as far as creating seperate BATTLETECH and MECHWARRIOR games. Single player computer games are even more roll oriented.

If your group's idea of having fun is WINNING every encounter, then roll playing and optimized characters is the way to go. It's also the way for the GM to go, otherwise the game will be boring.

'nuff said.
Murrdox
I think newbie Shadowrunners are defined more by who they know, what they know, and how well they get along in the Shadows more than anything else.

The "Best Archer in the World" can be taken down very very easily by failing a couple Charisma rolls in negotiations with a Mr. Johnson. Then said Archer quickly realizes no amount of Nuyen she was promised on the deal is going to save her from the 10 combat drones swarming in on her team - which has been hired as a distraction to allow the REAL sabotage team to break into the facility and bomb the place.
ElFenrir
I and a few of my buddies were discussing the whole ''how do you differ a new runner from a pro?''

Attributes, skills, and even gear isn't enough. But what folks are saying...street cred, reputation, contacts, and networks...that's what makes you. Back in the day, you could sort of look at Karma Pool; a more experienced runner tended ot have more here. Now there is Edge...which a new runner could indeed have in spades.

You could see Merc A, loaded with ware and excellent gear, skills and attributes; he picked them up during his time training in wherever. But he's never been in the shadows in his life.

Merc B might have a few pieces of older but still decent ware, less Attributes, still good Skills but a broader range perhaps-but he's also got a vast network of contacts, a good, solid reputation and the like. He's got about 8 years of experience in the shadows. Now, he doesn't suck at what he does at all-but he still rolls a few less dice on the combat end as merc A. But Merc B, generally, is going to be much more successful due to those things.



Ed_209a
You don't have to be a face, but being able to toss 5 dice in a influence test will save your tail eventually.

You don't have to be a ninja, but being able to toss 5 dice in a infiltration test will save your tail regularly.

An extra 2/2 contact is often more useful than 20K in gear flat out of chargen.

Don't worry about maxxing out your dice in your focus right off the bat. Usually, it will only mean 1, maybe 2 successes.

Edge is your friend

That last point in a stat (the 25BP one) is rarely worth it.
shuya
i think a big part of the "uber-specialization" aspect of some characters (and i apologize if somebody said this already but this thread was tl;dr) is metagaming during character creation: that is to say, a group of players will often times create characters who don't need to be well-rounded because they know that another player is making a character who can fill in the gaps for the abilities that they lack. i know that when i first started playing shadowrun, all of my characters were good at whatever it was they did, AND could throw a lot of dice into shooting somebody if the drek hit the fan, but that was about it.

i am not saying this is a bad thing: you can't get to be the best at what you do (which is ultimately the goal of anybody who is part of a limited hiring pool) without specializing. another big part of it is that, if you are ANYTHING but a newbie shadowrunner, you would be dead if you weren't already good. but, you'll also be dead if you don't diversify, unless you've got a rather forgiving GM smile.gif
Carriage
Would starting with 300BP but giving more karma give a more beginner runner feel?
Backgammon
Do not conserve ammo and always cut deals with dragons.
ElFenrir
Well, from my experience, 300 BPs are about lower-level gangers, nearly fighting to eat.

320 BP...it's only 20 BP difference, can make some very good noob runners. There's a thread here that's got a bunch of examples; they are indeed more right out of the gate. It's strange what the 20 BPs can do, but it's something(it's more contacts, more money, more attributes, and a full 5 more skill points.)

If I run lower level, I tend to go 320-350 BPs, allow full 200 BP in Attributes as if it were 400-sort of ''good raw potential'', but give less nuyen for the BP.

These days we are running 400 BP with Frank Trollman's house rules, since we prefer a bit more of a ''pro'' game, and the skill costs for that are excellent for the pro's that would have a wide array of skills. We don't necessarily play ubers, but just a little more slick, pro, been around the block once or twice guys as opposed to 500 BP superstars or out-of-the-gate runners.
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (Murrdox @ Jul 28 2008, 02:13 PM) *
I think newbie Shadowrunners are defined more by who they know, what they know, and how well they get along in the Shadows more than anything else.

The "Best Archer in the World" can be taken down very very easily by failing a couple Charisma rolls in negotiations with a Mr. Johnson. Then said Archer quickly realizes no amount of Nuyen she was promised on the deal is going to save her from the 10 combat drones swarming in on her team - which has been hired as a distraction to allow the REAL sabotage team to break into the facility and bomb the place.


Very True. I wasn't trying to imply that creating the best archer equals creating the best shadowrunner. Just the opposite.

I was just comparing the abilities of a generated shadowrunner to those of a generated DnD hero.

OTOH: A GM or DM can take down any character at any time - if that is their intention. The PC doesn't even have to fail.
Cadmus
Yes, its amazing how many run away city buses there are these days smile.gif and ofcourse the random Rock,plane,train,cow,bowl of flowers,small sperm whale,that fall out of the sky. wavey.gif
Carriage
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Jul 29 2008, 09:25 AM) *
If I run lower level, I tend to go 320-350 BPs, allow full 200 BP in Attributes as if it were 400-sort of ''good raw potential'', but give less nuyen for the BP.



What would be the problem with only allowing 160-175BP for attributes? Also, why do you give less nuyen per BP? What tends to happen if you don't
Aiolos Turin
My group had a great idea for our first time as shadowrunners.

Start as 13 year old street kids with 2 of our stats and 0 skills, 0 equipment, 0 contacts, and start from there- advancing very quickly.

Although I wouldnt recommend the same thing with anyone else (2 of a stat and 0 skills is a little too underdeveloped for a fun game) but to start very "young" or weak, perhaps a 200BP character instead of a 400BP one. Where heavy weapons and expensive vehicles are non-existent and mediocre weapons are a big deal.

In our campaign, we quickly decided to give ourselves some skills. After having 1 or 2 skills of each type (Surviving, Combat, and Social) at rating 1, and having most stats at 2, but two or three at 3, it really began to become fun. Although it feels like a completely different game having such low dicepools, such incompetant PC's and NPC's, and the fact we havent ran into a single gun yet (pistols are a HUGE deal!) and are still 13 years old, we've still had a lot of fun. Finding our first knife, thinking our two 13 year old characters could mug a troll that was already stabbed several times and bleeding (and realizing that it was a bad idea when we barely knocked him unconscious), and understanding basic combat tactics (Never fight 2v4 unless you have an ace up your sleeve, because you WILL lose lol)

Instead of doing Karma, we're doing "After each adventure, you gain 1 rating of [this skill you used] and one stat (we adjust it absed on how much more fun it would be to no longer suck so much, lol)



We quickly learned that Social skills are vital in Shadowrun- just as important as combat.
We quickly learned how powerful a troll is- how being outnumbered means "RUN!"- how combat works (dice modifiers FTW!)

But most f all... Player Creativity, Player Thought, and PC intelligence. That although face-to-face we couldnt beat 2 vs 4 (everyone was about equal power) when we came back for revenge on those street punks- and set up an ambush- the 2 vs 4 was more like 2 vs OVER- even with my nephew completely missing horribly 3 times in a row.

The decision to save edge until you REALLY need it (like to kill the vampire who is about to kill your best friend) and the Player knowledge to bring a wooden stake instead of his knife (otherwise the vampire, even at -3 modifier, would have mopped the floor with our teenagers)



These low dice pools, "13 year old versions of our characters" and the lack of armor, guns (until a few more missions) and the incredibly quick advancement void of karma (but logical in why we advance, mixing both realistic experience and the fun-factor) let us learn about the game as first timers. And in the end of the campaign? A very nice epic ending to a great story- a fully lush and full background history of our characters from ages 13-18, and deeper roleplaying into WHY our characters are the way they are. And after the campagin is over, "Time Passes" and our characters are the 400 BP versions we first created, because we balanced the "young" version of ourselves to slowly but surely integrate into the normal versions-but full with stories of their lives, enhancing roleplaying and depth of character significantly.

Can't wait for my next game!
ElFenrir
QUOTE (Carriage @ Jul 28 2008, 06:46 PM) *
What would be the problem with only allowing 160-175BP for attributes? Also, why do you give less nuyen per BP? What tends to happen if you don't



No problem, but the way we tend to look at a lower-level campaign; say...gangers. A ganger could very well have excellent, natural raw potential...but little in the way of training(some skills lower, with harsher skill caps-like 1 5 the rest 3 or lower, or 2 4's and the rest 3 or lower), and giving less nuyen-again, limiting the higher-end gear. You could even limit contacts...maybe by points, but by type...perhaps a low-end, completely wet behind the ears person just doesn't know that high-end, connection 6 fixer.

So we just think of it that way. Raw attributes are the building block. They might well have them...but little in the way of the ware, gear, lower skills...and of course, networks and street cred built up.

Less nuyen for BP in a lower level game, again, just sorta shows that maybe you don't have as much dough as a higher-end. However, if someone came up to me if I was running a 320 point campaign for a spoiled rich kid with good attributes and lots of money...but no ware, barely any contacts and lower Skills...I'd probably let it go. (I'm a big fan of working with the players to make sure everyone has a concept they will have fun with.) You don't have to give less nuyen per BP...you could limit the amount of BP someone can put into Resources(say, max 20-30 points instead.)

Delta56
I had a thought come up about building Runners.

Subraces. Are there any plans for 4th to have them, or have people already ab libbed some house rules for them?

-D56
Backgammon
QUOTE (Delta56 @ Jul 28 2008, 07:17 PM) *
I had a thought come up about building Runners.

Subraces. Are there any plans for 4th to have them, or have people already ab libbed some house rules for them?

-D56


The new Companion book coming out will have rules for metavariant, yes.
Rad
Wow, lots of help here. (And a few cheeky slots: I'm not dealing with any dragons, omae.)

My connection glitched up somehow, and posted this thread twice--cut off the end on this one too. The other half's >here<, if someone could merge them, that would be wiz.

(And frag you about the lingo, I'm getting into character.)

My posts over there pretty much sum up the response I'd give here, so I won't repeat myself any more than I have--except to say that this is all definitely helping. I'd like to think I've got my head around the mechanics pretty well by now. I haven't played the game yet, but I've been going over the books for several months now. Mainly what concerned me was practical application. Numbers and theory only take you so far, so I wanted a better idea of how it really goes down on the table.
masterofm
John Q. Everyman depending on how you run it is a 160-250 bps just to be John Q. Everyman (the large difference between bps is mainly stat based.) 300 bp is more mid range security security and or top rated ganger. 350 is high end security, specialists, and some experts. 400 bp is a shadowrunner. I know the stats don't quite quite equal this, but unless you ultra hard cheese a character that is basically what it almost breaks down to. As a shadowrunner you are a cut above the rest. You are an elite in a world where no one cares how badass you are. Your fuked and you take crap gigs to get by even though they are probably are not worth your time, and the only reason they are is because you need to get your rep up and pad your resume enough where people will hire you for the crazy high end pay.

I think the biggest thing about shadowrun is and I will make this in caps is....


MAKE YOUR CHARACTER INTERESTING. If your character is just a badassed that is fine, but it seems like when you make a quirky character that is interesting when you bring it out to the table it adds to your game. I had a few badass characters, but I think it is all about making a person not an arctype. If you want to play an arctype play D&D or some Hero based game, but I now realize that SR is about interesting characters who fly through life with grit and attitude. Maybe it hurts them or helps them in the end... but you never know.... wink.gif
Glyph
Some more points:

While characters can start out with huge dice pools in certain areas, this doesn't always mean they are going to be ultra-specialists who can only do one thing. That sammie rolling 18 dice with his pistols will have plenty of build points left for other skills. Especially with Attributes contributing to about half of the dice pool - that sammie with his Agility of 7 will have an advantage in quite a few other skills.

I briefly touched on lateral advancement. Let me emphasize that having one of your skills at the maximum does not make you "best of the best". Even within your specialty - say, shooting things - there are many areas that can be improved. Raise your Reaction and dodge, to get out of the way of return fire. Raise your Body, to wear heavier armor and soak damage better. Improve your Intuition and perception skill, to avoid ambushes. Get the infiltration skill, to set ambushes of your own. Raise your other ranged skills, so that you are as good with your rifle as you are with your pistol. Get the hardware and armorer skills, so that you can make some minor tweaks and adjustments to your own guns. Learn unarmed combat, in case you are ever caught without your guns.

And that's just within your area! You can also learn to stare down gangers so you don't have to waste bullets on them, how to make evasive maneuvers on your tricked-out racing bike, how to do basic first aid, and so on. I admit that I don't like being able to start out at the hard cap in something, either. But it doesn't limit character advancement nearly as much as it seems to, at first.
Cthulhudreams
Characters in shadowrun naturally 'round out' over time. Samurai's learn how to do covert work with their monowhip in addition to being a shootist.
Rad
Hmm, I suppose this is what I get for calling myself a beginner.

I may not have played SR before, but I'm pretty old hat when it comes to RPG's, and don't need the training wheels "don't be a boring munchkin" peptalk. My concern was that the sample characters and mechanics seemed to imply that a certain level of munchkiness was the norm, and I was worried my interesting, quirky, non-maxed characters wouldn't be able to keep up. It's no fun playing an interesting character who's dead or otherwise useless.

I used the term "best of the best" somewhat facetiously, I am proficient enough in math to realize that you can crank dicepools a bit higher than that. Why some people assume "beginner" means "child" or "idiot" is beyond me.

What I'm trying to determine here, is the general theory behind character design in SR4. Clearly, it's different from other RPG's, with their "start out weak, fight weak enemies, and level up a few dozen times" approach. If there's less vertical improvement for the characters, the difficulty of the enemies is also likely to be pretty static--and if a generalist character has to go up against opponents balanced for the specialized sample characters, things could get ugly.
masterofm
No need to get a little snippy. For one thing on the forums it is hard to determine if the person posting is a child, or knows anything about the game what so ever.

Anyways having a general all around character is not bad, but it's not all that good in SR. It means that when a player rolled up at our table with a good all around mundane character who has some B&E, stealth, face, shooting, and a few other logic based skills it can be somewhat of a problem. In the end he is outfaced by the shaman, most of his logic skills the adept has him beat (as well as outstealthed and outgunned) He had some other things he could do, but in the end he was outclassed by every other character in the group. The biggest problem is that because of this his character although interesting gets very little screen time.

In the end since you say you know all this stuff I would say it really comes down to the people you play with and the GM. I mean you already know this I'm sure. You could make some crazy characters in D&D too. Even if they are still lvl 1 there were just some races or classes that were just better then say a human fighter. If everyone is rolling up high dice pool characters then go munchkin. If they are not then you might be able to get away with your more general character.

Generally I find 15-16 dice is a good hardcap for dice maxing. That is just how our table runs though.
Glyph
I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the system really rewards specialization, in that you can have one of those big dice pools for your main thing, and still be well-rounded in other areas. It's actually the ones with broader skill sets, like hackers, that have a harder time being well-rounded. You spend so much just to get the skill groups that you need, that you don't have a lot of room for other areas.

To have an effective character, you can either choose a non-combat area where a high dice pool isn't so essential, or simply be good at that one thing, and well-rounded at everything else. But focus is good, because with an open build system, it is very easy to overgeneralize to the point of uselessness.

In a way, being a generalist is like being a specialist. A specialist who has decent physical Attributes and a high skill will do well, but someone who hard maxes things and tries to squeeze out that last die or two will wind up sacrificing too much in other areas. A generalist who has two or three areas of focus (such as stealthy sniper who is also a good field medic), along with essentials such as dodge, etiquette, and perception, will do well, but someone who tries to be proficient at too many things will spread himself too thin to be much good at any of them.
Rad
Sorry if I'm a bit irritable--I haven't had much sleep and some of this advice is striking me as "basic stuff that applies to any RPG whatsoever". The overall pros and cons of generalist vs specialist I get, what I've been specifically asking is where the cutoff point is in SR4, ie: what the minimum dicepools you need to be effective are. I can try to guess based on the mechanics of the game, but I'd rather go by the impressions of experienced players as to what has a shot and what doesn't.

Part of the problem is this thread got duplicated because of a glitch, so I'm no longer sure what info I've given in which thread.

To clarify, I'm basically going to be stuck filling the role of face and hacker in my first group, because I'm coming in late and the other players seem to have focused on combat-oriented characters.

I have a hard enough time cramming a character into 400bp without having to minmax and specialize more than I'm comfortable with, and I'm not willing to go the typical "combat liability" route that hackers and faces seem forced into, so I'm trying to find the best balance of three distinct areas--social, combat, and hacking. As a result, I need a better idea of what kind of dicepool is needed to be in any way effective in those areas.

I'm focusing primarily on his social abilities, with combat second (taking an "assist and don't get fragged" approach), and hacking handled largely through gear/agents/contacts who are much better at that sort of thing.

I've almost got a tentative build worked out, I'll post it for critique when I'm done. Probably tomorrow, after sleep. Forgot I'd only had 3 hrs last night--kinda snuck up on me.
ElFenrir
Well, again...''minimum effective DP'' sort of depends on the table. Since you are running with 400 BPs...Ill assume ''regular runner level''. Even then...there will be some disparity. See, our games run a little more upper-end...again, not uberpowered, but our high end is in the high teens(17+), our mids run around 9-11, and our lows 5-7. Ive had characters roll crappily on their 17 shooting dice only to keep rocking their 6 DP Negotations tests time and time again.

I would say...trying to think more average...shoot for 10-14 in your main. It's a large spread but there is wiggle room. Try 7-9 in secondary, and having 5 dice to throw around in a couple skills is nice, too. (Ask the GM again what DPs he's looking at.)

Keep in mind extra dice you can get. For example, your character, say, has an Intuition of 3, a bit above average in the SR world(in SR4, regardless of what the book says, that copy/paste chart is quite..not right. 2's are the average Joe stats, not 3's.) You could put a simple 2 in Perception(you might want that skill, everyone should get at least a point)...but Audio Enhancement 3 and Vision Enhancement 3 will give you 3 more dice for audio and visual perception tests. I don't call that min-maxing, I call that simply smart spending. You only have a certain amount of points, and a little minmaxing is never bad; especially since you want to basically hybrid hacker/face WITH someone who isn't a liability in combat. You'll have to scrape a bit. Smartlinks are a great way of tacking on an extra 2 dice for shooting. So your Agility 3 Pistols(Semi-Automatics) 2(+2) character will be rolling a cool 9 dice for cover fire, which is great. Reach on a melee weapon is nice; Blades(Axes) 1(+2), plus Agility 3, plus the Reach 2 of the axeis 8 dice to take care of himself in melee. If your Strength hovers around 3(say, an ork or even a human), that's 6P damage and plenty to take care of himself. Those two skills together at those ratings cost a grand total of 16 BP, and Agility 3 is only 20 BP. You just made yourself non-liable in combat(Body 3 and some armor to help also. Orks start with body 4.)

But it's possible here. Also remember...Program Rating goes into many hacking rolls...so that's part of your dice pool, rather than an Attribute. Picking up the electronics Group around 3 and then the three cracking skills at levels 4(maybe with a Specialization). Then you can either go seperate Influence skills with specializations...or the group(no Intimidation in that, so you might want that separate. A face being able to intimidate is also a good thing.)

It will be spread out a bit, but played around enough, you can get a respectable DP across the board; you won't be king in everything but you can, indeed, do those three things effectively. (IMO...I would divvy up the stats for this character nice and even, a good 3-4 spread.) Some ware can help with things like social tests(a some pheremones), and cerebral booster(for Logic).

EDIT: Misread something. In this case(face/combat/hacker in that order)...pick up the electronics/cracking groups lower(around 2 ish), and pick up more combat skills. I'd say 4/4/3/3 is a good physical spread, with 4/4/3/3 a good Mental spread for this guy(Body/Agility/Reaction/Strength and Charimsa/Intuition/Logic/Willpower.) Some muscle augmentation and toner will help well.

Just trade around the points and go a little heavier on the social skills. smile.gif
Denicalis
The point of the Shadowrun system is that it's flexible. Underline. Italics. Bold. Arrows. Flashing lights.

Like any game, you can min-max it if you want. If all you want to do is blow holes in people or toss a few fireballs, you can lean in that direction. It really depends on how your GM wants to run things.

I cap skills according to the group. If it's going to be a long term game, I'll make them start very average. Lightly trained, but not a killer combat squad or world class cracking crew. It allows for some advancement and makes the roleplay slightly more realistic.

The game has been set-up to be infinitely customizable. You'll see an endless parade of people on this board talking about their incredibly wiz-build with the epic skill levels and fantastic dice for combat, but in the end, players like that will never advance. Ever. They are what they are, and until they get killed off, they'll be the same one or two trick ponies. If that's what you want to play, more power to you, but I think it shows a rather distinct missing of the point.
Rad
[edit]

Yeah, I keep hearing that, Denicalis, but in practice I haven't found it to be all that flexible at chargen. If you'd read my initial posts you'd see that the entire point of this thread is that I don't want a minmaxed build, but the rules pretty much force you to--or else fall behind the standard set by the sample characters from the BBB.

[/edit]

Definitely some good ideas there...

...the smartlinked pistol thing I'm already doing. Also having him focus on electric weapons like sns ammo and shock gloves, since that -2 modifier for electrical damage is very nice and the other potential effects get even better in a big hurry. Don't know how that's going to work price-wise though.

I'd like to give him a reach weapon, but I'm strapped for skillpoints and unarmed is a must so he can defend himself sans equipment. Plus it fits the character.

Thought about going the 'ware route, but again just didn't seem to jive with the persona. Was going to use martial arts but I don't have arsenal yet so I went with adept since that can help pretty much all his areas in the long run.

Right now it's magic 2 with quick draw, counterattack, and probably some social boosters. Looking like I'll have to screw him on tech skills and make him an agent-using script kiddie, with contacts for backup/supplies. If I can find another negative quality to cram in there that doesn't seem cheap or counterproductive, I might be able to boost his tech skills a little more--but he's already got 25bp worth, and that seems to be pushing it.

The general view I have so far is that he uses full parry counterattacks in melee, and hides behind cover and uses his smartlink to take careful potshots with his pistol, using SnS ammo and shock gloves to quickly impair the enemy and either bring them down to a level he can handle or let the main combatants mop them up.

Magic is probably going to be a weakness for him unless I can invest in some anti-magic adept powers, but the team's got 2 shamans already so there should be some counterspelling going on.
ElFenrir
Adept will work well. Critical strike is only .25 per level, a level of that can help. (If you can, look at Arsenal. The MA rules are GREAT. 5 BP per level of a martial art, and you can pick one advantage per art per level. MAs are purchased as a Positive Quality, if you don't know that already. Maneuvers are 2 BPs each, and each level lets you pick 2. REALLY nice stuff.) Adept combined with Martial Arts is very good in the long run, but yeah...if you are strapped for BPs, your route seems good, too. I actually made a MA/Face before, totally comboed, and it was rather scary, to be honest(though he wasn't a tech.)

Electric is indeed dangerous in that game. (Hell, Elemental Strike is good, but it's half a magic point...with a magic 2 you might already be strapped there.)

Ryu
Cutoff levels depend on the skill.

One net hit is what you are going for in combat. Depends on your GM is not the only answer: a second IP beats almost everyone without one, an offensive DP higher than reaction+4 drives targets into full defense.

Social skills really depend on the GM, but unless you are facing an experienced negotiator, even 6 dice might work.

Technical skills mostly use extended tests, and extended tests can´t fail without optional rules, unless you mess things up with a critical glitch. I´d call it a 6+ again, unless we are talking the matrix. Then it is about (desired intrudeable rating)*3.

Physical skills depend on what you want to do - 6+ (with equipment) for climbing is really, really nice. Double-digit athletics pools open up interesting choices - consider the size of obstacles you can jump over.
sunnyside
Oh and a comment on character growth that I don't think is in here. While cyber can max your chars essence out fast Bioware leaves you a lot of room to grow because you'll have spent all your starting cash long before you're scratching the surface of how much bio/cyber you can fit in your char.

Also you may want to forgo getting some pieces (muscle toner) at chargen due to the availibility cap. Once you're in game you'd be able to install a higher rated system.

As for flaws I'd take more the Deadlands approach with them. Look at them as ways to make your character more interesting. I'd talk to the GM about it. What might they like on your character to add some flavor that they'd give you points for?

For example

-Lecherous
-An earlier affair has left you with four Orc kids back in the underground
-Owe someone a favor (and when that dragon comes calling you'll darn well pay up)
-reasons why you're in the shadows instead of making more working for a corp (Pedophiliac and you just can't shake it etc etc).

So on and so forth. Stuff that they'll keep out of the rulebooks if they're smart as the muchkins would abuse them. But a GM can clear.



Rad
Thanks for the advice everyone, but seriously, character persona and background is not a problem with me. If anything, I tend to overdo it in the depth department, which is part of why I want to make sure a character I put that much work into developing doesn't become dead/useless.

I haven't gone into depth here about this guy's personality or background, because I don't have time right now and that's not what I'm focusing on. Rest assured, the non-rules side of character development is where I'm at my best. If anything, the problem comes in trying to stat out the character to match his personality and background, and still have something that's functional in-game.

Quirks like not using enhancements "cuz the character doesn't like them", or picking weapons/armor/qualities/attributes based on the character's sense of style cause me no end of trouble in the crunch department.

Build-in-progress posted here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=706240

I go sleep. Bye.
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