Want to know what its like to be SINless?, Pulled from the headlines, circa 2008 Options

[Redjack]

Woman sure she exists; government agencies don't acknowledge her

Without a valid ID, she's found that she can't buy a home, rent an apartment, buy a car, get married or even get a job.

“You've got to have ID for everything - everything,� she said.

The only help she has been able to get is from Medicaid and food stamps, assistance she was receiving before losing her license.

“It's making me nonhuman. I haven't done anything to deserve this.�

[Wesley Street]

Not unheard of. You can't vote in Indiana without a driver's license. Talk about a denial of basic American rights.

[Redjack]

I am ok with someone not being able to vote without a photo ID. The inability of the system to be flexible enough to work through the details of her circumstances I am not.

One of the points that got me is the vicious circle she is in. She lost her license and cannot get originals of the birth certificates.... so she is a non-citizen. She is effectively SINless. I see this as a direct paradigm to questions posed in the past like: How can you have SINless in a country like the UCAS who are not illegal aliens? What are the effects of being SINless? What is the lineage of the state of being SINless?

[CanRay]

Especially considering the destructability of originals. One building burns down, there goes the original proof of your birth!

I know a number of people that has happened to, they are very, very, VERY careful with their current birth certificate. One keeps it in a Bank Lockbox.

[Synner667]

Very interesting...

Reminds me of the newspaper story I read awhile ago about a chap in India who had been declared dead on the evidence of some nasty relatives...
...And couldn't prove he was alive - even though he would visit the relevant offices !!


Thanks for posting this...
...I'll add it to the news article section of my own website..

[hyzmarca]

I am ok with someone not being able to vote without a photo ID.

I'm not. There is no reason to have such a requirement. There was a time when people trusted each other. There was a time when all you needed to do was say ho you were and that was that. There was a time when you could go about your business without the government constantly poking its fingers in your ass. The requirement of ID to exercise fundamental liberties is just one minor symptom of this.

One of the points that got me is the vicious circle she is in. She lost her license and cannot get originals of the birth certificates.... so she is a non-citizen. She is effectively SINless. I see this as a direct paradigm to questions posed in the past like: How can you have SINless in a country like the UCAS who are not illegal aliens? What are the effects of being SINless? What is the lineage of the state of being SINless?

She has options, of course, easy ones. She could borrow some money from a friend, go down to kinkos, and make herself a new driver's license. While she's at it she could also print out FBI, DEA, CIA, and Homeland security IDs that way she could do things like flash an ID, say "I'm commandeering your car for official business", and steal a hopefully nice car.

IDs make people complacent and easily duped. People trust IDs. And it is very easy to make a fake one. All you need is a color printer and some plastic cards. Even modern "security features" such as holographic foil can be duplicated with a little applied science.

The birth certificate is also fun, since it is effectively a useless document. There is no way to tie a birth certificate to an individual so one can simply obtain someone else's birth certificate and get an official state ID in that person's name.

[sunnyside]

I'm not. There is no reason to have such a requirement. There was a time when people trusted each other. There was a time when all you needed to do was say ho you were and that was that. There was a time when you could go about your business without the government constantly poking its fingers in your ass. The requirement of ID to exercise fundamental liberties is just one minor symptom of this.

Um. And you had to be male, white, and own land. Great times back then.

These days at least in the US we have the issue of millions (litteraly) of illegal immegrants who might like to vote, and sometimes get to anyway. I'd think some stuff like the started the origins of the SINless. Others probably feel through the cracks. They became homeless and forgot to carry all their paperwork on them. Then they had some kids.

[nezumi]

I agree with Hyzamarca. REQUIRING an ID to vote is ridiculous. It leads to the possibility of unnecessary discrimination, against people who don't drive, against people who think the government is out to get them (it is), against people who don't exist, etc. If they can prove they have knowledge about who they are, ex: home address, political affiliation, etc., that should be sufficient. If someone is stealing someone else's vote, it'll come up with the real person comes in to vote. Otherwise, voting, like gun ownership, is one of those rights that should have as little government interference as physically possible, excepting when you're playing a dystopian game, in which case it's okay.

Also, as a government employee, I feel compelled to tell you that woman does not, in fact, exist. It's all just a farce made up by the mass media. Swamp gas.

[Redjack]

I'm not. There is no reason to have such a requirement. There was a time when people trusted each other.

She has options, of course, easy ones. She could borrow some money from a friend, go down to kinkos, and make herself a new driver's license. While she's at it she could also print out FBI, DEA, CIA, and Homeland security IDs

Well, thanks for invalidating your first point with the second. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As to voting, there's too much voter fraud as is. An ID is not an unreasonable control in an attempt to reduce that. Imperfect yes, but better than nothing.

So getting back to the relevancy to 2070, this creates quite a vicious circle that will only only get worse when all documentation is electronic. A malicious change or one as a result of data corruption and you go from Joe citizen to SINless and homeless.

[Redjack]

Also, as a government employee, I feel compelled to tell you that woman does not, in fact, exist. It's all just a farce made up by the mass media. Swamp gas.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[BishopMcQ]

There are a few excerpts and examples in Emergence that discuss a few people who lost their SINs in the Crash and what happened to them afterwards.

RE: The Kinko's Connection--YMMV, but the Kinko's employees are instructed to contact Law Enforcement if they suspect forgery. I'd recommend visiting in the late hours or using one of the busier stores.

[CanRay]

There was a major hullaballo in Quebec in the last election.

You need photo ID and show your face, or swear upon a bible to legally vote. (Or both if you're not registered in the area. I had to do both as Elections Canada still thinks I'm in Ontario, for example.).

Some Islamic women were upset as they could not show their face, and, of course, could not swear upon a bible for religious purposes. (At this point I will say that while Canada accepts all religions, it is still a Christian Country by the Glory of God. Sorry, that's the way it goes.).

This lead to people showing up in Halloween masks to vote and refused to remove them.

[Synner667]

There are a few excerpts and examples in Emergence that discuss a few people who lost their SINs in the Crash and what happened to them afterwards.

RE: The Kinko's Connection--YMMV, but the Kinko's employees are instructed to contact Law Enforcement if they suspect forgery. I'd recommend visiting in the late hours or using one of the busier stores.

I presume you're referring to scanning and printing ??

Would that even be possible ??
Home scanners and Adobe software will not not allow you to work with money in paper form...
...As per this quickly googled link.

So I'd imagine something similar for all scanners in shops, photocopiers, etc.

[martindv]

I'm not. There is no reason to have such a requirement. There was a time when people trusted each other. There was a time when all you needed to do was say ho you were and that was that.

And that time has long since passed.

There was a time when you could go about your business without the government constantly poking its fingers in your ass.

That's pretty much the very purpose of all governments that ever have or will existed.

As to voting, there's too much voter fraud as is.

No there isn't. In well over 99% of claims of voter fraud, it has turned out to be complete shit. And there are several US attorneys who will agree; they were fired because they called bullshit when demanded to act on falsified or non-existent evidence in order to, let's be frank, keep Democrats from voting.

Some Islamic women were upset as they could not show their face, and, of course, could not swear upon a bible for religious purposes.

Boo fucking hoo. Or am I alone in thinking that is a retarded line to draw when it comes to accepting subjugation?

[CanRay]

Boo fucking hoo. Or am I alone in thinking that is a retarded line to draw when it comes to accepting subjugation?

It split the country pretty fairly.

On the one hand, why should an exception be made.

On the other, we are required, by culture, morality, and law, to respect religious requirements.

And then we got the jokers who came out in the Donald Duck masks.

[Dashifen]

When I changed my name it was very difficult for me to convince various agencies that I was who I claimed to be and I had supporting evidence of the legal name change. I was going to Italy for my honeymoon and I didn't get my passport in my new name until about four days prior to leaving! I still haven't been able to get some bills to use my new name. It was a major mess, and one that no one seems to be interested in solving. I can't even imaging the problem that this person is having if I've been unable to penetrate the bureaucracy given supporting documentation and three years of work!

[hobgoblin]

its one of the few thing that make one love living in a area where everybody knows you by face...

[Redjack]

No there isn't. In well over 99% of claims of voter fraud, it has turned out to be complete shit.

That is simply a false statement.... though I am sure fraud is even worse in a dystopian world like Shadowrun. Instead of just the misguided sympathizers, unions and businesses trying to rig the vote, you also have widespread corruption via organized crime and poli-clubs as well.

[CanRay]

Not to mention those Shadowrunning Bastards casting multiple votes with their numerous fake SINs.

I mean, hell, that's how Dunkie got elected over the Good and Richeous Brackhaven! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[imperialus]

Some Islamic women were upset as they could not show their face, and, of course, could not swear upon a bible for religious purposes. (At this point I will say that while Canada accepts all religions, it is still a Christian Country by the Glory of God. Sorry, that's the way it goes.).

What seemed really odd to me about that is the requirement that it was a Bible. You don't need to swear on a bible to provide testimony in court for example. When I needed to do so I took my oath on a copy of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I see no reason that the Islamic women couldn't swear on a copy of the Koran, provided they brought their own.

*edit* good god I'm derailing threads left and right here today.

[CanRay]

Got me, but with all the French-Catholics and the power base they have in Quebec, it's easily understandable that they'd insist that it be a Bible.

And they might be changing it to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms now because of that. Which, IIRC, was written as religiously neutral as possible. And, considering modern Canada, rightly so. Wish I knew where my copy was. Lost it in a move.

But back to being SINless. It's not as far as one would think. Especially if you carry your SIN/SSN Card and Birth Certificate in your wallet/purse! I mean, you have to pretty much carry your Driver's License and Health Card at all times (If you have Health Insurance in the US, that is. Go Canada and Universal Health Care! The cockiest Jaywalkers in North America!).

With those gone, how do you prove you're you?

In fact, if your keys are stolen as well (Easy enough to believe, get mugged, and there you go!), and you can't even get into your home for your Passport (If you're lucky enough to have *THAT*!).

[ludomastro]

In my wife's family there is an individual who took the name, SSN, and birth certificate of a young boy who died in infancy. We can't prove it but we think that he is running from the mob.

[Hound]

Identification exists for a reason, it helps stop criminals and such from taking advantage of people (as shadowrunners who lose their fake SINs will no doubt find). As with all systems created by man it has flaws. Yes it's really terrible what happened to that lady and so many other people (though I think it's important to note that there are still agencies willing to help her survive at least, Go Democracy!). But I sincerely believe that it's the lesser of two evils, as Shadowrun itself should point out.

As for requiring ID to vote, that's a pretty obvious one. Both to prevent multiple votes from the same person and to stop illegal immigrants from voting. Even though it's relatively easy to get a fake ID if you know the right people, it's enough trouble/danger/whatever that most people just won't do it.

Also, to Hyzmarca: Really? Are you really making a post about trusting people on a Shadowrun Forum?

Also to OP, nice example.

[Zartes]

I nearly had this problem myself. I live in Australia, and I was home-educated. Which meant when I actually wanted to get some form of ID, I had a really hard time getting it. To get ID, you need other ID. To get a copy of my birth certificate, I needed ID of some sort... and I needed the ID to get the certificate. Total catch 22. I only got into the system because I convinced the local bank to make an account for me without any ID, on the basis that I'd been visiting the bank with my mother for 15 years, and thus probably existed. Having a bank account "proved" that I existed, and thus allowed me to get a copy of my birth certificate.

[Earlydawn]

Ahh, the virtues and shortfalls of a system without any kind of centralized record-keeping.