Question concerning grenade scatter Options

[Motte]

I have a question for you all and hope you can help me clarify it:

When firing, let´s say, an underbarrel grenadelauncher, the player first makes a standard range attack and afterwards determines the scatter of the projectile. (p.145 SR4)
When targeting a location though, there is just a sucess test.

Because this phrase will just lead to my players shooting at the ground the enemy´s feet are on instead the enemy npcs directly in order to avoid scatter, I´d like this clarified (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What is concerned shooting at a location, is 3d6 scatter for nonmodified grenade launchers realistic (and playable) and why don´t frogs grow hair? Questions and more questions...

Thanks in advance!

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

As I understand it, you're required to have a primary target for the opposed test, even if you're aiming near them, rather than at them. I think that's in the FAQ.

If you're merely shooting at a barrier, with noone being caught in the blast, AFAIK, you pretty much auto-hit, as long as you don't glitch.

[sunnyside]

This was addressed in the FAQ....poorly.

The way I figure it you can either target a point on the ground or you can target an indavidual. If the person is standing still this is rather the same thing.

However if they are in motion it isn't. This is even present mechanically as grenades don't tend to go off immediatlly instead detonating on the next pass, at which point a running target may well be out of range. Even the default walking rate will get them a little off.

Rolling an opposed test is for leading and such for a nice square hit.

[DireRadiant]

Isn't tossing a grenade on the ground by someone's feet (a Success Test) easier than trying to hit them directly with a grenade (an Opposed Test)? Does everyone caught in the blast get a chance to dodge/react?

If the intent is to catch a target in the blast radius, then it should be an Opposed Test, whether the grenade is actually thrown at the target or thrown a few meters away.

If the intent is to catch a group of targets in the blast radius, the attacker still picks one as the primary target. The Opposed Test is made between the attacker and that target only, with scatter determined accordingly. Any targets caught in the blast radius make Damage Resistance Tests as normal.

FAQ

[Aaron]

This was addressed in the FAQ....poorly.

It makes me sad, but I agree. In my games, I just use the rules for targeting locations, unless the attacker is actually trying to physically hit the target with the grenade.

However if they are in motion it isn't. This is even present mechanically as grenades don't tend to go off immediatlly instead detonating on the next pass, at which point a running target may well be out of range. Even the default walking rate will get them a little off.

It seems to me that the rules as written have a workaround for this (from the attacker's perspective, anyway). Grenades are wireless devices, and it's a Free Action to trigger a device if it's a) wirelessly and b) through a DNI. Thus, it explodes where it lands in the pass when it lands there.

[Murrdox]

Look at it this way:

Johnny is standing in the middle of the room. You want to land a Grenade right by Johnny's feet. You make an opposed check with Johnny to represent anticipating where Johnny is/going to be/dodging, etc.

You're not trying to hit the floor, you're trying to hit Johnny.

On the other hand...

A van just pulled up and it looks like it's filled with Yakuza razorboys. You roll a Grenade under the van. This isn't an opposed roll. The van is parked. You just want to roll the grenade under the van. You're trying to hit a stationary object.

In my opinion where it gets dicey is when you have a character hiding behind a barricade and you want to flush the character out, or destroy the barricade by chucking it behind. Perfect example is a foxhole. Is tossing a grenade so it lands in a foxhole an opposed check or a success check?

By the RAW, it's a success test. However, it doesn't seem to make much sense, as your ability to get a grenade to land in a foxhole doesn't have anything to do with the abilities of the person IN that foxhole.

[Aaron]

By the RAW, it's a success test. However, it doesn't seem to make much sense, as your ability to get a grenade to land in a foxhole doesn't have anything to do with the abilities of the person IN that foxhole.

Er ... isn't a Success Test not an Opposed Test, and so wouldn't have anything to do with the abilities of the person IN that foxhole?

[CanRay]

No, you're aiming for the Foxhole at that point, a stationary target. You're not aiming at the guys inside the Foxhole. Hense, a Success Check.

The blast radius of the Grenade forces the other people to make success tests after that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

What you're trying to do is the opposite of Suppressive Fire, Exposing Fire. That makes all the difference.

[sunnyside]

You can have grenades blow when they hit the ground. Wirelessly or with a proximity fuse. Timers are popular for their low probabilty of horrendous backfires. i.e. a bad throw with a proximity fuse, or a hacker getting at your wireless grenade.

At any rate what I wished they'd done is just have it be a success test to get the grenade to a certain point. And then some other test for the defenders to get off the spot if they can see it coming (maybe for every success they can move a meter away).

As is even with a proximity fuse if you're aiming at a spot instead of the moving target of where your enemy is going I'd give them a couple meters traveled before impact (just for airtime).

At any rate the ease of reducing scatter is somewhat counteracted by the fact that your hits don't add into the DV. So you may have gotten that grenade at the cybertrolls feet, however you have only annoyed them with it.

[Ryu]

Quick and easy: Everyone in the AoE rolls defense as if targeted, the hits grant a movement rate for evasion, choose direction immediately without thinking. Everything above two meters requires Full Defense. Any net hits after compensating for deviation move the grenade one meter towards the desired target. Anyone who happens to get hit due to deviation gets a defense-roll, too.

(Serious thanks to my group for always accepting judgement calls. I love you guys/girls!)

[hobgoblin]

At any rate what I wished they'd done is just have it be a success test to get the grenade to a certain point. And then some other test for the defenders to get off the spot if they can see it coming (maybe for every success they can move a meter away).

that has its own problem as i think one game has that kind of rule and it allows the person thats trying to get away from the grenade to basically dodge further then he could run in the same amount of time. dont recall what game that was tho...

but the joke was something having a grenade tossed at you and dodge all the way up to the thrower...

oh wait, now i recall. if the dodge had a successful dodge, he was suddenly outside of the blast radius, no matter how large it was...

[Motte]

Thanks everyone so far, your answers already helped a great deal! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)